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posted ago by devilwentdwn2georgia ago by devilwentdwn2georgia +10 / -0

Bit of background as to my political leanings, beliefs ect. This is so you guys know where I'm coming

I'm Canadian, politically center left, but very libertarian. I actually agree more with Biden's policies re: healthcare, marginal tax, ect. but am against his foreign policy, media censorship surrounding his campaign, and anti free speech rhetoric being purported by the far left.

I'm really only interested in this election because I placed some bets on the election outcome and have been watching it to see if I'm gonna win or lose money.

However, I'm very interested in allegations of fraud, media censorship ect. and so I decided to look into the details of what is going on.

Here's my honest take on what's really going on:

The reality is that both the Dem. parties and Rep. parties engage in election fraud. This is usually done on a small scale, in order to tip votes one way or the other.

Most of what is done is minor levels of election fraud and it is usually done by lower level individuals or people who are manipulated into doing so. That's why you see things like the social worker who was charged with election fraud. My guess is that someone gave her the idea to fill out ballots on behalf of the seniors in her care. Saying things like "Don't you think they should have a right to vote, even though they aren't capable" or things like "If they were able to vote they would vote for Biden. Trump's policies with coronavirus will put many seniors at risk and they could die".

Justifications like this likely led to many people making illegal votes on behalf of others and the availability of mail in ballots made this much easier for individuals to do. The democrats know this and part of their strategy was likely relying on their messaging of "getting Trump out of the white house at all costs" and "Trump is trying to suppress voters by casting doubt on mail in ballots." This kind of rhetoric probably led to people committing election fraud. As well, this kind of messaging was probably present in other areas, such as within the USPS.

If you convince people of the idea that Trump is trying to suppress votes, this leads to people doing things like backdating ballots with different dates in order to make sure they are counted, it leads to vote counters having biases when determining if a vote should or shouldn't be counted. I'm not saying they were throwing out Trump votes and keeping Biden votes. However, say a signature is close but doesn't exactly match. This bias can mean that a poll worker looking at a signature that they may be 50/50 on may rule in favor of a Biden vote vs a Trump vote. Naturally, counters that are in counties that are more pro-Biden will have been fed the rhetoric that voters are being suppressed and in turn are more likely to make errors that would favor otherwise questionable ballots.

The Dems likely know this and use it to their advantage, and it's likely republicans do the same thing in other states as well. That's why most are staying silent on this, as many know this sort of thing is rampant in US elections and done by both parties. After all, it's just the name of the game.

Now there is also the issue of voting machines those systems being manipulated. This definitely also does happen, although it is likely done to a degree to where there is plausible deniability. More than likely this means adding a few hundred votes here and there so as not to overly inflate numbers or manipulate them entirely. Having extra people on the voter rolls and asking people to vote early allows them the best opportunity to do this. Say there are 10,000 dead people on a voter registry, and 3000 submit ballots. The state can reject 2300 of them as the person being deceased, allow in 700 and of those 700 they can find 500 people with the same name and chalk it up to clerical error. If an investigation is made and can be found to have included dead people, they can turn around and say "this is only 200 people, which represents and small fraction of a percent of this election". They can use info from voter records, hospital records, tax records, ect. to categorize people based on the likelihood of them being found out. Because of the way that votes are tallied and recorded by counties and the lack of chain of accountability, this manipulation can be done by the machines and only to a degree where the results wouldn't be otherwise noticeable. As well, there can be known bugs and errors in the software that can be exploited to provide inaccurate vote totals. If investigated this can be chalked up to machine error or to clerical error. Bugs can even be put in place or software designed in a way that causes users to make errors. The software doesn't have to have a glitch or bug, but suppose that the process that the votes are tallied can be measured to be done in error 2% of the time and an error done in that regard can cause results to skew heavily towards one candidate vs the other. This is something that can never be proven, would be impossibly difficult to disprove, and ultimately will be shown to be caused by human error. The company making the machines and the state governance can then go to court and blame poor training, unclear policies, ect. for the error. This is only if it is caught however and because the incident will be chalked up to clerical error, only the votes from that one county or that one batch will be manually recounted.

I think most politicians know this and they play a game of chicken where they try and catch each other doing this, but only in cases where the fraud can change the outcome and can be shown in isolated incidents without exposing the entirety of the fraud happening elsewhere. If you look at Bush vs Gore, both Bush and Gore pursued recounts in districts where they had lost and not in districts where they had won.

When Trump went out on Nov 4th and declared that the election was a fraud, he had no evidence to support that claim, however I think that his plan all along was to try and win in this manner. His plan and his campaign took advantage of the fact that many votes were being done by mail in voting and that there would be enough fraud committed that they would have a case in many states where the margins were very close.

Knowing this, Biden focused his campaign heavily on getting people to vote by mail and encouraged his supporters to vote early. This is done so that they can collect data on ballot totals and ultimately makes it easier for them to manipulate numbers in areas where the results will be close. Trump instructed his supporters to vote on election day so that it is less likely to predict the republican turnout and in turn manipulate votes.

If we were being honest here, the reality is that fraud was likely committed by dems and republicans and that many secret deals are always being made. The thing is, since Trump has no loyalty to many of these career politicians, he has no problem using this fraud to his advantage to try and have votes thrown out and swing the election in his favor. The dems and many republicans however do not want this to happen as it will expose a lot of the ongoing fraud and also cut down in the many ways they use to manipulate elections. They also know that if fraud is investigated nationwide the political establishment will lose the trust of the American people and if a new election is held, Trump will use that to his advantage and most likely easily win the election.

Personally I don't care who wins. However, I am getting pretty sick of the media spreading a narrative and blatantly censoring stories that don't fit their narrative.

I don't like it when Trump supporters defend misleading or inaccurate statements made by Trump, Qanon conspiracies, ect. Likewise, I don't like it when the MSM, fact-checkers, ect. manipulate information to suit their narrative and when things such as the hunter Biden story are not talked about, discredited and hidden from the public.

If Trump wants to expose corruption, I'm all for it. Personally I think that in a lot of these cases there should be a re-election, not ballots being thrown out, simply because I believe american's votes need to be counted. Throwing them out would very clearly benefit Trump seeing as the majority of the ballots are mail in and wouldn't be fair. It can be argued that the ballots are being thrown out due to failures on the part of the Dem. governors, but I think that regardless who's fault it is, American's votes are important and a new election would be a more honest and fair way to do things than throwing out the ballots. Not fair for Trump's campaign, but fair for the American people.

If there were audits done in all of the swing states, I believe that there would be enough evidence of voter fraud to cast doubt and people would want a new election in those areas. If Trump is the one to expose all of this, he is in a very good position to convince people to vote for him in the case of a re-election.

tl;dr: Everybody cheats in elections, both Dems and Republicans. Trump knows this and is going to use it to undermine and try and beat the Dems. No, widespread voter fraud isn't the sole reason Biden "won", but it exists in enough capacity that Trump can use it to get votes thrown out and cast doubt on the political establishment. The political establishment knows this and that's why they're trying to win the media narrative and convince the population that Trump is just a sore loser. Personally I'm all for Trump challenging these votes and exposing this fraud. Americans should have free and fair elections and media manipulation and censorship should be exposed. However, I would heavily favor holding a re-election in the counties/states that the fraud occured over throwing out the votes, as I think this would be more fair to the american people as well as help Trump in terms of his popularity.

Just my 2 cents though having read many of the posts on here, /pol, and on reddit, as well as having looked into the various cases of voter fraud. I really don't think the election was "stolen". More like there were various cases of voter fraud that always occur and Trump is in a unique position of giving no fucks and being willing to use it to win the election through the courts. As long as he's exposing corruption, more power to him.

Comments (23)
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deleted 5 points ago +5 / -0
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devilwentdwn2georgia [S] 0 points ago +1 / -1

Could be, more so I'm talking about things that are proven to be false. Honestly don't know enough about Qanon so maybe a bad example.

Here's a good example that isn't Qanon but is misinformation. The Wi voter turnout conspiracy. Wi records voter turnout as a measure of ballots cast vs eligible voters, not registered voters. So the actual 2020 turnout is 71%, not 89% as many were saying.

This kind of misinformation distracts from real evidence of election fraud that may have occurred in Miluakee. A lot of the counts from various districts seem odd and unlikely. That is real evidence of election manipulation and in a state were the margin was 20k votes could change the outcome of the election.

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Skygrrrl 4 points ago +4 / -0

Can you give me an example of one of trumps false statements? And as far as conspiracy theories, plenty are being proven today. I love all of these thoughtful, calm black pills. Very amusing. Aside from parroting some stats, you have no idea what you are talking about. Because you are not American. It’s not something I can explain. If it could be explained, you globalists would have succeeded.

Don’t bet against America, you will lose.

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devilwentdwn2georgia [S] -1 points ago +1 / -2

I'm not against America or betting against America. If you read my post you'd see Im all for trump exposing this BS. Trump has of course said mistruths or misleading statements in the past. All politicians do. It's more like half truths or him saying things that are later proven inaccurate. LITERALLY ALL POLITICIANS DO THIS THOUGH.

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Skygrrrl 3 points ago +3 / -0

Trump is not a politician. And I’m waiting for an example. ;)

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devilwentdwn2georgia [S] 1 point ago +1 / -0

Ok, so when he was inaugurated he spoke about how his turnout was the "largest ever."

Obviously it's not the "largest ever". Do I care that he bs-ed a bit? No, every politician does this kind of stuff. Did the MSM make it into a huge deal when it shouldn't be? Yes.

That doesn't change the fact that objectively there was less turnout than when Obama was elected.

If I'm being fair, a lot of the "lies" the MSM claims trump says can be chalked up to hyperbole, or just his speaking style that they take to be literal.

But to suggest he has never told a lie is ridiculous. Everyone has, and every politician has, with MAYBE the exception of lincoln.

Edit: If you want some more examples, go look up politifact fact checks on Trump. Many of them they are unfair and say his statements are false when they are maybe just exaggerated, or half true, or in some cases actually true. However, I'm sure there are some things there that are objectively not true that he has said. Whether that is 10% or 50% of the stuff politifact says he lied about is up to you. But if you think it's 0% then you're clearly delusional.

Overall, I'm more concerned about Biden's lies and think he says a lot more BS than Trump when it comes to actual concerns people have of him. Just throwing that out there so you don't think im some Biden cuck trying to defend him. His sons a creep/pedo and biden is corrupt and bought by Chinese interests.

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Skygrrrl 4 points ago +4 / -0

That’s all you got? Did you see the rally’s? Anything else?? Seriously ? Do you even know what the crowd sizes were for each?

I’m sorry but America is under attack, our cities are being burned, Trump supporters are being assassinated in broad day light, and our tax dollars are funding terrorism, so some potential embellishment from the man who is trying to save it are really pretty meaningless, no?

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devilwentdwn2georgia [S] 0 points ago +1 / -1

Understand that I don't have a list of stuff to quote cause I never was trying to make the point that trump is a "LIAR". I'm just saying he does lie, so does every politician. DID I SAY AS MUCH AS EVERY OTHER POLITICIAN? NO. But don't say that he doesn't do it at all or that he's not a politician. He's not a career politician. He's not an establishment politician. But goddamn man how do you call someone running for office not a politician? Are we just arguing semantics here? Would you agree if I called him something else? My point is he holds public office and of course lies about some stuff, just like everyone else who holds public office.

Edit: Adding since you added this: "I’m sorry but America is under attack, our cities are being burned, Trump supporters are being assassinated in broad day light, and our tax dollars are funding terrorism, so some potential embellishment from the man who is trying to save it are really pretty meaningless, no?"

I'm literally in agreement with you in saying that his lies/half-truths are pretty meaningless. I'm saying every politician does it. I'm not saying Trump does it more than others. Nor am I trying to prove that he lied about this or lied about that. Can I not point out what we both agree at least is "embellishment" without you taking that as a defense of Biden?

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Skygrrrl 3 points ago +3 / -0

Nope. Because it’s utterly meaningless and only brought up to try and hurt Trump.

I guess the important thing is you see how potentially bad this is. It could be too late. It’s very sad. But I will say that there are many many people watching what is going on very closely and it’s all so obvious...that it’s scary.

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devilwentdwn2georgia [S] 1 point ago +1 / -0

To add to this so I'm clear on my view here.

I think the entire election should be investigated. The deep state is real, and it includes both Dems and Republicans. But I think you underestimate how much is done via manipulation and taking advantage of people, vs "everyone is in on it, even local county officials, ect."

There's no way that they are literally printing ballots to the tune of hundreds of thousands. A biased county recorder and clerks who he has chosen that are biased and likely to do things to benefit his party, along with a governor promising him legal defense and giving orders? FAR FAR more likely imo.

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deleted 4 points ago +4 / -0
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devilwentdwn2georgia [S] 2 points ago +2 / -0

The point I'm making is that the voter fraud is done in small isolated cases and in a way that they have plausible deniability. This all adds up to a large scale that affects the election outcome. But what I mean is that they are not doing this on a widespread scale to where one person testifies and hundreds are implicated. The dominion voting systems company is probably in on the fraud, however I would argue that only a few higher ups and only a few high ranking dem officials know what is going on.

A poll worker isn't going to be manipulating ballots and being paid off by their supervisor. But maybe the supervisor is hiring only from heavily dem areas and repeating rhetoric like "trump wants to suppress voters" to get people to commit fraud.

If you read this as "Trump and Biden both commit fraud, the election fraud isn't real, ect." then you're clearly missing the point of what I'm saying.

I worked at a sketchy car dealership many years ago that had corrupt managers cooking the books. This is exactly how they did things and they did this so that if legally challenged, they would have plausible deniability. This is how fraud is done. Read the NY post article about the dem operative who engaged in fraud. Watch the project veritas videos exposing fraud by videoing people agreeing to break election laws. No one makes the post worker offer the ballots, nor is he ordered to. However, he is easily manipulated into doing so because of the rhetoric the Dems have instilled in his brain. If that guy was investigated, he would likely be the only one charged as his superiors probably were smart enough not to give him direct orders.

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ExpatPede 3 points ago +3 / -0

You "really don't think the election was stolen"? You really think there was just a normal amount of cheating and Trump's big plan is to use that against them as any candidate could do any election?

You must have spent more time writing all that than actually looking into what you're talking about. Spend some time looking at posts here, there's plenty of proof of fraud in amounts never seen before. Why did you even post this?

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devilwentdwn2georgia [S] 0 points ago +1 / -1

I didn't say a normal amount of cheating did I? TBH it seems more common among Dems and if you look at past cases of voter fraud that is the case. Also it is likely far more prevalent than prior elections due to the high amount of mail in votes.

I'm just arguing that this stuff happens and is probably a part of the dems strategy from the beginning rather than the sole reason they won. Still, since the race is so close these cases could be enough to swing the election in Trumps favor.

If you investigated the entire election, you would find fraud on both sides. More than likely it would swing the election in republican's favor though as it is more commonly commited by dems.

I'm just making the point that this isn't anything new or a grand conspiracy to the point that some are making it out to be. Doesn't mean that the election outcome wasn't manipulated and that the MSM didn't spend 4 years leading up to this election manipulating people.

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ExpatPede 1 point ago +1 / -0

"Everybody cheats in elections, both Dems and Republicans. Trump knows this and is going to use it to undermine and try and beat the Dems. No, widespread voter fraud isn't the sole reason Biden "won"

That's what you wrote. I agree that cheating is nothing new and there's plenty of corrupt Republicans too, although it's much more difficult for them to get away with cheating against democrats currently. But in this election, I feel it's shockingly obvious that voter fraud IS the sole reason the votes are showing higher for Biden. It wasn't close in reality and there's overwhelming proof and statistical analysis showing how much they cheated. The statistical analysis and much of the proof won't be enough in court for them to fix this, but hopefully some of it will. We'll see, but the democrats couldn't have made it much clearer.

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devilwentdwn2georgia [S] 1 point ago +1 / -0

fair point. I guess our disagreement is in whether or not it is the "sole reason" or not. I think it contributed heavily, but would stop short of calling it the sole reason.

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deleted 3 points ago +3 / -0
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tonysoprano 2 points ago +2 / -0

We all have our own opinions, but you have very little visibility into the scale of voter fraud that occurred during this election. Just what you've been able to glean from the sources you referenced. My own opinion is that there was a staggering amount of fraud in this election, without which, Biden could never win the election. We'll soon find out who is right because I expect the truth is going to start cascading soon.

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devilwentdwn2georgia [S] 1 point ago +1 / -0

My point is that voter fraud occurs in isolated incidents that are hard to tie together as widespread voter fraud. I don't think that's controversial. That doesn't mean that it didn't occur in enough instances that it changed the outcome of the election. The dem's rhetoric, their use of mail in ballots ect. are all done to exploit this fact, and cause voter fraud to occur that cannot be tied to them. Same with the voting machines, having plausible deniability so that it cannot be proven that they were manipulated.

The deep state is assisted by the MSM and all the big tech orgs. Do you really think they would be so stupid as to engage in election fraud as blatantly as many have suggested? The reality is that they likely have enough data and all their moves, rhetoric, ect. is calculated and done in a way to cause this fraud to occur without them directly needing to go in and change votes or direct people to falsify ballots.

The voting machines are very concerning as well, because since they were connected to the internet, this means the code could have been changed or manipulated before and after the election, so that evidence could be removed.

100k+ vote swing in Michigan seems unlikely to be all from fraudulent votes. The amount is too high.

Now, Georgia, Wi, PA, AZ, NV, are all different stories.

Now there are reports that Biden wants some republicans in his cabinet. Still think election fraud was all democrats?

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devilwentdwn2georgia [S] 1 point ago +1 / -0

Another example to give here of ways this could be done. Imagine sending mail in ballots to registered voters who are felons, but haven't had their name removed from the voter registry and then trusting them to not vote if they're not allowed to. The dems know that a large portion of those people would vote for them and that some will get through the state checks to see if someone is eligible to vote. BOOM, just like that, you get election fraud that favors the dems, in high enough numbers to swing elections, but in a way that could never be tied back to the democrats. Now imagine doing things like that and suddenly the few hundred fraudulent votes is now tens of thousands. Each incident isn't tied to the other and appears vastly different. If you investigate one incident, you arrest one person and stop maybe a few hundred votes. Therefore they can claim "widespread voter fraud doesn't exist".

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tonysoprano 1 point ago +1 / -0

I'm not going to spend a lot of time speculating on this, particularly when we're going to have a much better understanding of the scope of voter fraud in the upcoming weeks. However, I will address what seems to be your primary point.

Do you really think they would be so stupid as to engage in election fraud as blatantly as many have suggested?

PA election officials have ignored two separate court orders from the SCOTUS to isolate ballots received after 8:00 pm on election day. Their responses have varied between "we can't guarantee that all precincts are following the directive" to "your order is not legally binding."

That's about as stupid and blatant as you can get. I think Dems simply think there will be no repercussions to what they're doing.

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devilwentdwn2georgia [S] 1 point ago +1 / -0

To me, this seems like they did it so that they could use the opportunity to mix ballots rec'd after Nov 4th with ones recd prior, knowing that would swing the election in biden's favor. The reason they ignored the court order is in order to create a situation where 300k + ballots will be brought into question. Looking into those ballots, there may be relatively little evidence of fraud, but I think they did this to make a situation where Trump is questioning the validity of 300k ballots and asking for them to be thrown out. This lets the Dems make arguments that the ballots shouldn't be thrown out on the grounds that it would affect voting results and infringe on the rights of voters. This might be enough for the court to request evidence from trump of fraud actually happening. The dems know that Trump will be unable to produce enough evidence to suggest a large portion of the 300k ballots were manipulated.

I think they did it not because they thought they won't be challenged. But rather, they did this intentionally so that it will be very hard to argue that the ballots should be thrown out and impossible to verify wrongdoing if they are recounted/audited.

Reading more and more into the fraud that occurred, and PA definitely seems very suspect. However, I don't think they were necessarily "printed ballots for biden". More likely a mix of real ballots, in-elligible voters and ballots that were filled out illegally (such as through coercion or bribes). They're basically trying to set up a situation where the stakes are so high so that the court is hesitant to throw out the votes. Might be why it seems to be happening in various states as well. They know the cost to complete an audit is very high and how much litigation it can involve and are trying to set up a situation where Trump is fighting an uphill battle. Meanwhile, MSM, tech corps, ect. are all naming Biden as president elect to help these impending court cases.

Look at Bush vs Gore. One of the reasons made for not counting ballots was because a change of results could cause "irreparable harm" to the president elect. I'm guessing arguments will be made that these actions could cause "irreparable harm" to the voters, state govt, ect. Trump may even use that argument himself to get the ballots thrown out.

Overall, gonna be a very messy court battle and regardless of outcome half the country is gonna be up in arms about it. Super interested to see what legal arguments are made from both sides.

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deleted 2 points ago +2 / -0