The idea that you must work a 9-5 job and get a degree from a public academic institution to have value is the opposite of laudable.
Women contribute far more to society as housewives who support men and families than they do as HR Managers. The idea that women should feel a sense of purpose and contribution from being a wage slave is something only a slave driver would try to program into people. Men have always worked to provide for a family not to have value in themselves. A lot of the greatest men of all time never had careers and were simply financed by rich people to do their own thing. That is precisely what women should be doing. Have a man provide for you and then do your own thing.
A man providing for a woman gives the woman freedom to contribute to society in much more useful manners. If parenting is a full-time job, then so be it. If a woman can manage parenting and still wants to contribute further by researching physics, then do that. 9-5 careers have very little in terms of achievement and contribution. You are working for another person and rarely working for yourself or contributing to your own self-development as a human.
The fact of the matter is that most women who are working should not actually be working and would likely lead happier, more fulfilling and productive lives if they simply stayed home, raised kids and spent their spare time working on a side project. Any subject can be learned online for free at home if someone devotes the time to it. The idea that women get value from being diversity and woke managers is absolute garbage. Most women are working because they feel they have to work due to the cost of living. VERY FEW women (and people in general) do work that actually adds value to themselves outside of what the benefits of the labour (money) provides for them.. Most people spend their days watching TV, playing video games or reading books while working a menial 9-5 job.
If we defunded education (because women embraced home-schooling), we defunded public healthcare and we defunded the welfare this would allow people the ability to afford having 1 parent not work much more readily.
The fact of the matter is that having women enter the workforce as equal to men has done nothing to benefit society as a whole except make us wealthier but that is all superficial. As anyone with an income of $80k+/yr knows, money is mostly irrelevant to happiness. I know for a fact men have suffered immensely from women being in the workforce and gained absolutely nothing from it.
How can you say all women should stay at home? Not all women WANT to stay home. That is the opposite of freedom and liberty. How is this hard to comprehend honestly. I do not and never will want to be pregnant. The entire ordeal completely disgusts me and I am simply unwilling to take the risk of all the potential health problems associated with it. I would rather have a business, pets, and freedom from obligation. I already said I agree a lot of women would definitely be happier not working. I am not one of them. So why are you attempting to prove that we should be limiting the rights of the (potential minority) of women who DO NOT fit the housewife mold just because most would be happier in the mold!? This is the kind of bullshit is why so many women who are otherwise clear headed refuse to associate with the right.
Edit: I do agree though that the only women who have it all (family and career) are the ones who stay at home and do something entrepreneurial. I am not at all arguing that women should want to be wage slaves or that there is something inherently laudable about that. I don’t think anyone of any gender besides people who don’t like responsibility or too much stress should want to be a wage slave men included. Everyone who is competent and mentally strong in my mind is capable of being their own boss to some degree. I am still saying though that in 1955 it wasn’t that easy for a woman to go out and own a business as it is now. And further, many women don’t see achieving something as a “side project” but rather as their main project. I don’t understand why you insist that all women should biologically/emotionally want to raise kids. There are many who just do not want that! Plenty of men also don’t want kids. Why do we have to keep segregating everything on gender at all. Individuals should just be free to be individuals. Stop generalizing women like we are somehow not fully autonomous individuals and should all want families and kids. We don’t.
Please, point me to where in the context of my post I said that. I did not and that was never my intention. Why did you interpret what I said as meaning that?
You should ask yourself why you don't want to get pregnant, why you want a business, why you like pets and why you see children/families as obligations instead of purpose. You think it's because that's just the way you are but you recognize nurture is a part of creating you not just nature.
Think about it like this. A species of animal with females who hate getting pregnant would cease to exist (unless the males raped the females etc.. but let's ignore these technicalities). The essence of what I'm saying is that biologically, women need a drive to procreate or the animal wouldn't be in existence today. It would have lasted 1 generation then extinct. If some academics were studying these animals and noticed a trend where the women liked getting pregnant then all of a sudden didn't like getting pregnant in large numbers, they would question what was going on. They wouldn't ask if the females just naturally didn't like getting pregnant, no they would look for environmental factors. Maybe the pollution is causes a genetic defect that reduces the drive to procreate, maybe the male have been infected with a virus that makes them smell like another animal, etc... They would assume some sort of factor is subverting the desire for women to procreate.
That is what is going on in human society. That subversion is the State and society itself. It is unsustainable. Currently, without immigration, western countries would have a negative population rate. A civilization that is decreasing in population is a dying civilization. This happened in Rome before they fell. It was so bad they made laws trying to make people have more kids without outright saying you must have kids or else.
My point is that we need to change the societal factors that lead to less children. It is not money. Everyone thinks it's money but it's not that. The issue is the State itself, marxism and wealth redistribution. It subverts the natural order of society in order to satiate the masses toward only having a function of producing for the benefits of others by creating a system that provides limited comforts to keep people trapped in this bubble of a lifestyle that makes them think it's what they want when it's wholly lacking in essence of the kind of lifestyle they could have if it more approached their natural purpose.
Don't force women to have kids but foster an environment that leads to this by reducing the State and increasing people's liberty. You'd find that with more freedom, not less, women would actually opt to choose this sort of lifestyle more often. The more the State has imposed itself on people to force communist values and public institutions or 'woke' ideologies, the more women's natural inclination for children has been subverted.
I am saying the exact opposite of what you're suggesting. I'm saying to increase people's liberty not to decrease it. But understand, having free education, free healthcare, free welfare and all these free things to not need to be faced with the consequences of the turbulent life that is liberty is not freedom. Those things, which requires the labour of others to guarantee are privileges which have nothing to do with liberty except in how in order to guarantee them, one must oppress the liberty of another by forcing redistribution of one's labor against one's will. Liberty is not safe and secure because liberty has risk associated with failure and that is why in such a society, women naturally gravitate toward strong men that can ensure safety and security which often means they end up having his children. The more you oppress men to guarantee safety/security without any risk, the more you subvert the natural order and actually end up restricting freedom.
You made a lot of sweeping statements about how women should stay at home so I took it as implying you’d prefer if women were more incentivized to do so...which implies making other areas of pursuit possibly harder. But if what you mean is just that third wave feminism has poisoned many weak/sheep type female minds into thinking they should want careers and not kids then I absolutely agree with you. I’ve met tons of women in my education and work experience before owning a tech business that I was like...dude why are you here. For sure. However it is absolutely patronizing of you to say I should ask myself why I don’t want kids and that I’m somehow a victim of the bullshit modern day feminism like I’m some indoctrinated sheep. The idea of being pregnant actually makes me feel ill. It looks disgusting and painful and I know it to be as such from my friends. I am sure children give great purpose, and small parts of me think it would cute and beautiful and all that. But I am a realist and self aware and also know that there is a ton of headache, obligation, inability to go where you want when you want (hell even just having a dog does this), and also that I like waking up when I want and living my life at whim. Why would I have a kid when I am at risk of being a selfish parent or worse, a resentful one? Now I’m still in my late twenties...but I also resent that if I wait to have kids that I am putting my kids at a disadvantage because they’d be coming out of older eggs as opposed to younger eggs which are definitely better. If I could be like a man and start settling down when I’m 40 that would be great! But no biology is like well girlie if you aren’t ready in your late twenties early 30s you’re kinda fucked. Hence, I don’t want them at all because I absolutely don’t want them right now and it has nothing to do with society it is an entirely personal and self aware observation of mine.
We're all victims of the environmental pressures going on. You might have more self-awareness than others but having that self-awareness should give you an idea of what if your life went a little differently. How certain chains of events, upbringing, peer groups, etc... shaped you. It's not offensive or patronizing to ask someone to analyze this about themselves. If you can 100% say with certainty you would be the exact same regardless of upbringing, then so be it but I doubt that's true.
It honestly sounds like you are struggling with exactly the kinds of things mentally that one shouldn't be struggling with. 1000 years ago how many women do you think thought all the thoughts you're thinking with regards to children? Your thoughts aren't necessarily natural but perhaps a product of the environment. There's too much fear and over analysis in your thoughts about something so basic. If your ancestors had the same thoughts, you wouldn't be here today. These thoughts are due to the social structure of our society and the value subversion that has gone on...
Now keep in mind, I'm just saying all those to pose as a counter position to your own, so please don't take offense, as my intention is just to challenge your view not tell you that you are wrong, period...
With that being said, I understand your position exactly. I've spoken to some women who got pregnant around 20yo who are in their 30s and they say now that they're in their 30s, knowing themselves now, all career oriented, goal oriented, have their life all together, don't need any men in their life and are content with how things are going, they would never choose to have children... except they already have children and don't regret it at all. In fact the thought that they might not have chosen to have children scares them and they so happy they had children when they were younger. I would argue this is part of the subversion in society that is lowering women's desire for children. Women are biologically programmed to have children in their late teens and early twenties from a personality and hormone perspective. The idea that women should put that off in order to build an education + career actually leads to women missing their window so to speak. This is of course just one of the many factors going on in society.
Also, as a 32yo man who wants kids, let me tell you it's not easy to settle down at 40yo to have kids. Too many women in their 30s don't want kids and women in their 20s just want to fuck around. The women that want commitment get snatched up typically to men around their age in their early-mid twenties. Men have a window now too. I dated a psychiatrist for a while and she said there's a noticeable amount of increase in men with psychological problems seeking help regarding men feeling like they've hit their biological clock for kids but can't find women for it and it's negatively impacting their mental health.
Anyway, I think you're overthinking kids and that the joy from the obligation far outweighs the inconvenience. So what if your kid has a lower IQ or a weaker body? People adapt. As long as you love your child and they have that then they will still have a joyful experience at life. Also, no family was ever perfect, I'm sure your parents had issues and there were struggles while you were being raised but if they didn't do that, you wouldn't be hear. The struggle is part of what gives us our humanity. A life without it isn't a life worth living. You just live until you die without truly enjoying everything life has to offer.
In conclusion, I do think my sweeping generalizations are accurate and I think far more women fall into the category of my sweeping generalization, including yourself, but that society subverts these natural inclinations due to the structure of our society, which isn't to the benefit of society, men or women. I also have seen exactly what you've described with so many women in life and I've talked about it with them. Too many believe at some level that they need a career and they need to be independent from men because that is what they've been told to believe but I can see the anxiety and constant duality in the struggle within them where I too just think, why are you even hear? It's a shame because I see how it negatively impacts relationships as well because a lot of times, the men would actually appreciate a more involved wife/husband and a less busy one. The actual value-add to a relationship from a woman working who doesn't even want to work is negative. It negatively impacts her personality and mood while not providing any real value to the man. Bigger houses and nicer cars really doesn't mean anything.
The idea that you must work a 9-5 job and get a degree from a public academic institution to have value is the opposite of laudable.
Women contribute far more to society as housewives who support men and families than they do as HR Managers. The idea that women should feel a sense of purpose and contribution from being a wage slave is something only a slave driver would try to program into people. Men have always worked to provide for a family not to have value in themselves. A lot of the greatest men of all time never had careers and were simply financed by rich people to do their own thing. That is precisely what women should be doing. Have a man provide for you and then do your own thing.
A man providing for a woman gives the woman freedom to contribute to society in much more useful manners. If parenting is a full-time job, then so be it. If a woman can manage parenting and still wants to contribute further by researching physics, then do that. 9-5 careers have very little in terms of achievement and contribution. You are working for another person and rarely working for yourself or contributing to your own self-development as a human.
The fact of the matter is that most women who are working should not actually be working and would likely lead happier, more fulfilling and productive lives if they simply stayed home, raised kids and spent their spare time working on a side project. Any subject can be learned online for free at home if someone devotes the time to it. The idea that women get value from being diversity and woke managers is absolute garbage. Most women are working because they feel they have to work due to the cost of living. VERY FEW women (and people in general) do work that actually adds value to themselves outside of what the benefits of the labour (money) provides for them.. Most people spend their days watching TV, playing video games or reading books while working a menial 9-5 job.
If we defunded education (because women embraced home-schooling), we defunded public healthcare and we defunded the welfare this would allow people the ability to afford having 1 parent not work much more readily.
The fact of the matter is that having women enter the workforce as equal to men has done nothing to benefit society as a whole except make us wealthier but that is all superficial. As anyone with an income of $80k+/yr knows, money is mostly irrelevant to happiness. I know for a fact men have suffered immensely from women being in the workforce and gained absolutely nothing from it.
How can you say all women should stay at home? Not all women WANT to stay home. That is the opposite of freedom and liberty. How is this hard to comprehend honestly. I do not and never will want to be pregnant. The entire ordeal completely disgusts me and I am simply unwilling to take the risk of all the potential health problems associated with it. I would rather have a business, pets, and freedom from obligation. I already said I agree a lot of women would definitely be happier not working. I am not one of them. So why are you attempting to prove that we should be limiting the rights of the (potential minority) of women who DO NOT fit the housewife mold just because most would be happier in the mold!? This is the kind of bullshit is why so many women who are otherwise clear headed refuse to associate with the right.
Edit: I do agree though that the only women who have it all (family and career) are the ones who stay at home and do something entrepreneurial. I am not at all arguing that women should want to be wage slaves or that there is something inherently laudable about that. I don’t think anyone of any gender besides people who don’t like responsibility or too much stress should want to be a wage slave men included. Everyone who is competent and mentally strong in my mind is capable of being their own boss to some degree. I am still saying though that in 1955 it wasn’t that easy for a woman to go out and own a business as it is now. And further, many women don’t see achieving something as a “side project” but rather as their main project. I don’t understand why you insist that all women should biologically/emotionally want to raise kids. There are many who just do not want that! Plenty of men also don’t want kids. Why do we have to keep segregating everything on gender at all. Individuals should just be free to be individuals. Stop generalizing women like we are somehow not fully autonomous individuals and should all want families and kids. We don’t.
Where did I ever say we should limit rights?
Please, point me to where in the context of my post I said that. I did not and that was never my intention. Why did you interpret what I said as meaning that?
You should ask yourself why you don't want to get pregnant, why you want a business, why you like pets and why you see children/families as obligations instead of purpose. You think it's because that's just the way you are but you recognize nurture is a part of creating you not just nature.
Think about it like this. A species of animal with females who hate getting pregnant would cease to exist (unless the males raped the females etc.. but let's ignore these technicalities). The essence of what I'm saying is that biologically, women need a drive to procreate or the animal wouldn't be in existence today. It would have lasted 1 generation then extinct. If some academics were studying these animals and noticed a trend where the women liked getting pregnant then all of a sudden didn't like getting pregnant in large numbers, they would question what was going on. They wouldn't ask if the females just naturally didn't like getting pregnant, no they would look for environmental factors. Maybe the pollution is causes a genetic defect that reduces the drive to procreate, maybe the male have been infected with a virus that makes them smell like another animal, etc... They would assume some sort of factor is subverting the desire for women to procreate.
That is what is going on in human society. That subversion is the State and society itself. It is unsustainable. Currently, without immigration, western countries would have a negative population rate. A civilization that is decreasing in population is a dying civilization. This happened in Rome before they fell. It was so bad they made laws trying to make people have more kids without outright saying you must have kids or else.
My point is that we need to change the societal factors that lead to less children. It is not money. Everyone thinks it's money but it's not that. The issue is the State itself, marxism and wealth redistribution. It subverts the natural order of society in order to satiate the masses toward only having a function of producing for the benefits of others by creating a system that provides limited comforts to keep people trapped in this bubble of a lifestyle that makes them think it's what they want when it's wholly lacking in essence of the kind of lifestyle they could have if it more approached their natural purpose.
Don't force women to have kids but foster an environment that leads to this by reducing the State and increasing people's liberty. You'd find that with more freedom, not less, women would actually opt to choose this sort of lifestyle more often. The more the State has imposed itself on people to force communist values and public institutions or 'woke' ideologies, the more women's natural inclination for children has been subverted.
I am saying the exact opposite of what you're suggesting. I'm saying to increase people's liberty not to decrease it. But understand, having free education, free healthcare, free welfare and all these free things to not need to be faced with the consequences of the turbulent life that is liberty is not freedom. Those things, which requires the labour of others to guarantee are privileges which have nothing to do with liberty except in how in order to guarantee them, one must oppress the liberty of another by forcing redistribution of one's labor against one's will. Liberty is not safe and secure because liberty has risk associated with failure and that is why in such a society, women naturally gravitate toward strong men that can ensure safety and security which often means they end up having his children. The more you oppress men to guarantee safety/security without any risk, the more you subvert the natural order and actually end up restricting freedom.
You made a lot of sweeping statements about how women should stay at home so I took it as implying you’d prefer if women were more incentivized to do so...which implies making other areas of pursuit possibly harder. But if what you mean is just that third wave feminism has poisoned many weak/sheep type female minds into thinking they should want careers and not kids then I absolutely agree with you. I’ve met tons of women in my education and work experience before owning a tech business that I was like...dude why are you here. For sure. However it is absolutely patronizing of you to say I should ask myself why I don’t want kids and that I’m somehow a victim of the bullshit modern day feminism like I’m some indoctrinated sheep. The idea of being pregnant actually makes me feel ill. It looks disgusting and painful and I know it to be as such from my friends. I am sure children give great purpose, and small parts of me think it would cute and beautiful and all that. But I am a realist and self aware and also know that there is a ton of headache, obligation, inability to go where you want when you want (hell even just having a dog does this), and also that I like waking up when I want and living my life at whim. Why would I have a kid when I am at risk of being a selfish parent or worse, a resentful one? Now I’m still in my late twenties...but I also resent that if I wait to have kids that I am putting my kids at a disadvantage because they’d be coming out of older eggs as opposed to younger eggs which are definitely better. If I could be like a man and start settling down when I’m 40 that would be great! But no biology is like well girlie if you aren’t ready in your late twenties early 30s you’re kinda fucked. Hence, I don’t want them at all because I absolutely don’t want them right now and it has nothing to do with society it is an entirely personal and self aware observation of mine.
We're all victims of the environmental pressures going on. You might have more self-awareness than others but having that self-awareness should give you an idea of what if your life went a little differently. How certain chains of events, upbringing, peer groups, etc... shaped you. It's not offensive or patronizing to ask someone to analyze this about themselves. If you can 100% say with certainty you would be the exact same regardless of upbringing, then so be it but I doubt that's true.
It honestly sounds like you are struggling with exactly the kinds of things mentally that one shouldn't be struggling with. 1000 years ago how many women do you think thought all the thoughts you're thinking with regards to children? Your thoughts aren't necessarily natural but perhaps a product of the environment. There's too much fear and over analysis in your thoughts about something so basic. If your ancestors had the same thoughts, you wouldn't be here today. These thoughts are due to the social structure of our society and the value subversion that has gone on...
Now keep in mind, I'm just saying all those to pose as a counter position to your own, so please don't take offense, as my intention is just to challenge your view not tell you that you are wrong, period...
With that being said, I understand your position exactly. I've spoken to some women who got pregnant around 20yo who are in their 30s and they say now that they're in their 30s, knowing themselves now, all career oriented, goal oriented, have their life all together, don't need any men in their life and are content with how things are going, they would never choose to have children... except they already have children and don't regret it at all. In fact the thought that they might not have chosen to have children scares them and they so happy they had children when they were younger. I would argue this is part of the subversion in society that is lowering women's desire for children. Women are biologically programmed to have children in their late teens and early twenties from a personality and hormone perspective. The idea that women should put that off in order to build an education + career actually leads to women missing their window so to speak. This is of course just one of the many factors going on in society.
Also, as a 32yo man who wants kids, let me tell you it's not easy to settle down at 40yo to have kids. Too many women in their 30s don't want kids and women in their 20s just want to fuck around. The women that want commitment get snatched up typically to men around their age in their early-mid twenties. Men have a window now too. I dated a psychiatrist for a while and she said there's a noticeable amount of increase in men with psychological problems seeking help regarding men feeling like they've hit their biological clock for kids but can't find women for it and it's negatively impacting their mental health.
Anyway, I think you're overthinking kids and that the joy from the obligation far outweighs the inconvenience. So what if your kid has a lower IQ or a weaker body? People adapt. As long as you love your child and they have that then they will still have a joyful experience at life. Also, no family was ever perfect, I'm sure your parents had issues and there were struggles while you were being raised but if they didn't do that, you wouldn't be hear. The struggle is part of what gives us our humanity. A life without it isn't a life worth living. You just live until you die without truly enjoying everything life has to offer.
In conclusion, I do think my sweeping generalizations are accurate and I think far more women fall into the category of my sweeping generalization, including yourself, but that society subverts these natural inclinations due to the structure of our society, which isn't to the benefit of society, men or women. I also have seen exactly what you've described with so many women in life and I've talked about it with them. Too many believe at some level that they need a career and they need to be independent from men because that is what they've been told to believe but I can see the anxiety and constant duality in the struggle within them where I too just think, why are you even hear? It's a shame because I see how it negatively impacts relationships as well because a lot of times, the men would actually appreciate a more involved wife/husband and a less busy one. The actual value-add to a relationship from a woman working who doesn't even want to work is negative. It negatively impacts her personality and mood while not providing any real value to the man. Bigger houses and nicer cars really doesn't mean anything.