Please, point me to where in the context of my post I said that. I did not and that was never my intention. Why did you interpret what I said as meaning that?
You should ask yourself why you don't want to get pregnant, why you want a business, why you like pets and why you see children/families as obligations instead of purpose. You think it's because that's just the way you are but you recognize nurture is a part of creating you not just nature.
Think about it like this. A species of animal with females who hate getting pregnant would cease to exist (unless the males raped the females etc.. but let's ignore these technicalities). The essence of what I'm saying is that biologically, women need a drive to procreate or the animal wouldn't be in existence today. It would have lasted 1 generation then extinct. If some academics were studying these animals and noticed a trend where the women liked getting pregnant then all of a sudden didn't like getting pregnant in large numbers, they would question what was going on. They wouldn't ask if the females just naturally didn't like getting pregnant, no they would look for environmental factors. Maybe the pollution is causes a genetic defect that reduces the drive to procreate, maybe the male have been infected with a virus that makes them smell like another animal, etc... They would assume some sort of factor is subverting the desire for women to procreate.
That is what is going on in human society. That subversion is the State and society itself. It is unsustainable. Currently, without immigration, western countries would have a negative population rate. A civilization that is decreasing in population is a dying civilization. This happened in Rome before they fell. It was so bad they made laws trying to make people have more kids without outright saying you must have kids or else.
My point is that we need to change the societal factors that lead to less children. It is not money. Everyone thinks it's money but it's not that. The issue is the State itself, marxism and wealth redistribution. It subverts the natural order of society in order to satiate the masses toward only having a function of producing for the benefits of others by creating a system that provides limited comforts to keep people trapped in this bubble of a lifestyle that makes them think it's what they want when it's wholly lacking in essence of the kind of lifestyle they could have if it more approached their natural purpose.
Don't force women to have kids but foster an environment that leads to this by reducing the State and increasing people's liberty. You'd find that with more freedom, not less, women would actually opt to choose this sort of lifestyle more often. The more the State has imposed itself on people to force communist values and public institutions or 'woke' ideologies, the more women's natural inclination for children has been subverted.
I am saying the exact opposite of what you're suggesting. I'm saying to increase people's liberty not to decrease it. But understand, having free education, free healthcare, free welfare and all these free things to not need to be faced with the consequences of the turbulent life that is liberty is not freedom. Those things, which requires the labour of others to guarantee are privileges which have nothing to do with liberty except in how in order to guarantee them, one must oppress the liberty of another by forcing redistribution of one's labor against one's will. Liberty is not safe and secure because liberty has risk associated with failure and that is why in such a society, women naturally gravitate toward strong men that can ensure safety and security which often means they end up having his children. The more you oppress men to guarantee safety/security without any risk, the more you subvert the natural order and actually end up restricting freedom.
You made a lot of sweeping statements about how women should stay at home so I took it as implying you’d prefer if women were more incentivized to do so...which implies making other areas of pursuit possibly harder. But if what you mean is just that third wave feminism has poisoned many weak/sheep type female minds into thinking they should want careers and not kids then I absolutely agree with you. I’ve met tons of women in my education and work experience before owning a tech business that I was like...dude why are you here. For sure. However it is absolutely patronizing of you to say I should ask myself why I don’t want kids and that I’m somehow a victim of the bullshit modern day feminism like I’m some indoctrinated sheep. The idea of being pregnant actually makes me feel ill. It looks disgusting and painful and I know it to be as such from my friends. I am sure children give great purpose, and small parts of me think it would cute and beautiful and all that. But I am a realist and self aware and also know that there is a ton of headache, obligation, inability to go where you want when you want (hell even just having a dog does this), and also that I like waking up when I want and living my life at whim. Why would I have a kid when I am at risk of being a selfish parent or worse, a resentful one? Now I’m still in my late twenties...but I also resent that if I wait to have kids that I am putting my kids at a disadvantage because they’d be coming out of older eggs as opposed to younger eggs which are definitely better. If I could be like a man and start settling down when I’m 40 that would be great! But no biology is like well girlie if you aren’t ready in your late twenties early 30s you’re kinda fucked. Hence, I don’t want them at all because I absolutely don’t want them right now and it has nothing to do with society it is an entirely personal and self aware observation of mine.
We're all victims of the environmental pressures going on. You might have more self-awareness than others but having that self-awareness should give you an idea of what if your life went a little differently. How certain chains of events, upbringing, peer groups, etc... shaped you. It's not offensive or patronizing to ask someone to analyze this about themselves. If you can 100% say with certainty you would be the exact same regardless of upbringing, then so be it but I doubt that's true.
It honestly sounds like you are struggling with exactly the kinds of things mentally that one shouldn't be struggling with. 1000 years ago how many women do you think thought all the thoughts you're thinking with regards to children? Your thoughts aren't necessarily natural but perhaps a product of the environment. There's too much fear and over analysis in your thoughts about something so basic. If your ancestors had the same thoughts, you wouldn't be here today. These thoughts are due to the social structure of our society and the value subversion that has gone on...
Now keep in mind, I'm just saying all those to pose as a counter position to your own, so please don't take offense, as my intention is just to challenge your view not tell you that you are wrong, period...
With that being said, I understand your position exactly. I've spoken to some women who got pregnant around 20yo who are in their 30s and they say now that they're in their 30s, knowing themselves now, all career oriented, goal oriented, have their life all together, don't need any men in their life and are content with how things are going, they would never choose to have children... except they already have children and don't regret it at all. In fact the thought that they might not have chosen to have children scares them and they so happy they had children when they were younger. I would argue this is part of the subversion in society that is lowering women's desire for children. Women are biologically programmed to have children in their late teens and early twenties from a personality and hormone perspective. The idea that women should put that off in order to build an education + career actually leads to women missing their window so to speak. This is of course just one of the many factors going on in society.
Also, as a 32yo man who wants kids, let me tell you it's not easy to settle down at 40yo to have kids. Too many women in their 30s don't want kids and women in their 20s just want to fuck around. The women that want commitment get snatched up typically to men around their age in their early-mid twenties. Men have a window now too. I dated a psychiatrist for a while and she said there's a noticeable amount of increase in men with psychological problems seeking help regarding men feeling like they've hit their biological clock for kids but can't find women for it and it's negatively impacting their mental health.
Anyway, I think you're overthinking kids and that the joy from the obligation far outweighs the inconvenience. So what if your kid has a lower IQ or a weaker body? People adapt. As long as you love your child and they have that then they will still have a joyful experience at life. Also, no family was ever perfect, I'm sure your parents had issues and there were struggles while you were being raised but if they didn't do that, you wouldn't be hear. The struggle is part of what gives us our humanity. A life without it isn't a life worth living. You just live until you die without truly enjoying everything life has to offer.
In conclusion, I do think my sweeping generalizations are accurate and I think far more women fall into the category of my sweeping generalization, including yourself, but that society subverts these natural inclinations due to the structure of our society, which isn't to the benefit of society, men or women. I also have seen exactly what you've described with so many women in life and I've talked about it with them. Too many believe at some level that they need a career and they need to be independent from men because that is what they've been told to believe but I can see the anxiety and constant duality in the struggle within them where I too just think, why are you even hear? It's a shame because I see how it negatively impacts relationships as well because a lot of times, the men would actually appreciate a more involved wife/husband and a less busy one. The actual value-add to a relationship from a woman working who doesn't even want to work is negative. It negatively impacts her personality and mood while not providing any real value to the man. Bigger houses and nicer cars really doesn't mean anything.
I think there has always been women who didn’t fit the mold. They had a word for it: “spinster”. That implied the woman being unhappy sure, but I’m willing to bet many were happy not having to live under anyone’s thumb. Way back hundreds of years ago, you’d need permission from your husband to do anything it was absolutely outrageous. Of course there were women who resented it. There’s also been lots of women throughout history who made huge achievements with and without kids/husbands so it’s obvious many women did want to pursue things beyond the home in life. It is objectively harder to do that as a woman than a man since women are the primary caregivers. We for the most part can’t have it all the way a man can unless we call all our own shots and are beholden to no one job wise.
Re: my experience, I grew up in the south. My mom always told me to stay pretty/skinny and to get a good man. I definitely did do that, it’s just the having kids part I take issue with. I’m VERY glad I didn’t have them young I was such a naive idiot for far too long haha. I definitely was not indoctrinated in to any feminist bullshit, I’ve always been a severe individualist and naturally rebellious not for rebellions sake but simply because I never fit any checkboxes. I’m physically feminine but not a girly girl, attracted to manly men, but also think and act more like a “typical” man (rational, assertive, logical, rarely emotional).
Thing is I am in a great position to have kids if I wanted. I run a tech business from home with remote employees. He also makes money. I can make my own schedule. I don’t really have a reason to postpone from a career perspective. I literally just don’t want to be pregnant and it’s not over analyzing. I’ve talked to a lot of women with kids and some are like oh I loved being pregnant and others are like it almost killed me...so maybe you need to research how bad pregnancy can actually be for many women and you won’t know which type you’ll be until you try it. It isn’t just cosmetic body changes. It can fuck up your ab muscles, metabolism, even make you contract a weird type of diabetes and not to mention post partum depression. I resent that I have to make all these physical sacrifices for “purpose” (when I feel like I have a lot of purpose with the ethical side of my company), and all the guy has to do is ejaculate. And then after you do that you can’t sleep a full night for like years bc the kid wakes up randomly and wants to suck your tit, NO THANKS. Trust me I actually wish I wasn’t so hung up on the pregnancy thing or like I could have the kid and he comes out like age 5. It’s just a mental block.
Would you be asking the same things of men who say they don’t want kids?
I totally understand how men wouldn't want to have children in our current society given the relationship structure and current view on roles. I wouldn't want to have children in a marriage where the woman worked 40 hours a week and expected me to care for the child 50/50 because she was busy during the day with her career. At a basic rational/logical level, that's basically the same as adding a dog, in which as you've described, creates additional work/stress/obligation. I would seriously consider what the point of the woman in this relationship structure was exactly in adding more work to my life without any additional benefit from the woman. If a woman was willing to stop working and raise the kids herself such that they were primarily her responsibility but I was support her in that role, then I would want kids. Not to mention, if someone is on this website, they likely are aware of the social indoctrination going on so home-schooling would be preferable; however, with a woman working full-time, that is infeasible. I think overall the relationship dynamic is only suitable for children when the man works and the woman raises the child. Both working + kids isn't desirable for me at all but I do desire kids just not under this structure, so I totally get men who think the same as me.
Where did I ever say we should limit rights?
Please, point me to where in the context of my post I said that. I did not and that was never my intention. Why did you interpret what I said as meaning that?
You should ask yourself why you don't want to get pregnant, why you want a business, why you like pets and why you see children/families as obligations instead of purpose. You think it's because that's just the way you are but you recognize nurture is a part of creating you not just nature.
Think about it like this. A species of animal with females who hate getting pregnant would cease to exist (unless the males raped the females etc.. but let's ignore these technicalities). The essence of what I'm saying is that biologically, women need a drive to procreate or the animal wouldn't be in existence today. It would have lasted 1 generation then extinct. If some academics were studying these animals and noticed a trend where the women liked getting pregnant then all of a sudden didn't like getting pregnant in large numbers, they would question what was going on. They wouldn't ask if the females just naturally didn't like getting pregnant, no they would look for environmental factors. Maybe the pollution is causes a genetic defect that reduces the drive to procreate, maybe the male have been infected with a virus that makes them smell like another animal, etc... They would assume some sort of factor is subverting the desire for women to procreate.
That is what is going on in human society. That subversion is the State and society itself. It is unsustainable. Currently, without immigration, western countries would have a negative population rate. A civilization that is decreasing in population is a dying civilization. This happened in Rome before they fell. It was so bad they made laws trying to make people have more kids without outright saying you must have kids or else.
My point is that we need to change the societal factors that lead to less children. It is not money. Everyone thinks it's money but it's not that. The issue is the State itself, marxism and wealth redistribution. It subverts the natural order of society in order to satiate the masses toward only having a function of producing for the benefits of others by creating a system that provides limited comforts to keep people trapped in this bubble of a lifestyle that makes them think it's what they want when it's wholly lacking in essence of the kind of lifestyle they could have if it more approached their natural purpose.
Don't force women to have kids but foster an environment that leads to this by reducing the State and increasing people's liberty. You'd find that with more freedom, not less, women would actually opt to choose this sort of lifestyle more often. The more the State has imposed itself on people to force communist values and public institutions or 'woke' ideologies, the more women's natural inclination for children has been subverted.
I am saying the exact opposite of what you're suggesting. I'm saying to increase people's liberty not to decrease it. But understand, having free education, free healthcare, free welfare and all these free things to not need to be faced with the consequences of the turbulent life that is liberty is not freedom. Those things, which requires the labour of others to guarantee are privileges which have nothing to do with liberty except in how in order to guarantee them, one must oppress the liberty of another by forcing redistribution of one's labor against one's will. Liberty is not safe and secure because liberty has risk associated with failure and that is why in such a society, women naturally gravitate toward strong men that can ensure safety and security which often means they end up having his children. The more you oppress men to guarantee safety/security without any risk, the more you subvert the natural order and actually end up restricting freedom.
You made a lot of sweeping statements about how women should stay at home so I took it as implying you’d prefer if women were more incentivized to do so...which implies making other areas of pursuit possibly harder. But if what you mean is just that third wave feminism has poisoned many weak/sheep type female minds into thinking they should want careers and not kids then I absolutely agree with you. I’ve met tons of women in my education and work experience before owning a tech business that I was like...dude why are you here. For sure. However it is absolutely patronizing of you to say I should ask myself why I don’t want kids and that I’m somehow a victim of the bullshit modern day feminism like I’m some indoctrinated sheep. The idea of being pregnant actually makes me feel ill. It looks disgusting and painful and I know it to be as such from my friends. I am sure children give great purpose, and small parts of me think it would cute and beautiful and all that. But I am a realist and self aware and also know that there is a ton of headache, obligation, inability to go where you want when you want (hell even just having a dog does this), and also that I like waking up when I want and living my life at whim. Why would I have a kid when I am at risk of being a selfish parent or worse, a resentful one? Now I’m still in my late twenties...but I also resent that if I wait to have kids that I am putting my kids at a disadvantage because they’d be coming out of older eggs as opposed to younger eggs which are definitely better. If I could be like a man and start settling down when I’m 40 that would be great! But no biology is like well girlie if you aren’t ready in your late twenties early 30s you’re kinda fucked. Hence, I don’t want them at all because I absolutely don’t want them right now and it has nothing to do with society it is an entirely personal and self aware observation of mine.
We're all victims of the environmental pressures going on. You might have more self-awareness than others but having that self-awareness should give you an idea of what if your life went a little differently. How certain chains of events, upbringing, peer groups, etc... shaped you. It's not offensive or patronizing to ask someone to analyze this about themselves. If you can 100% say with certainty you would be the exact same regardless of upbringing, then so be it but I doubt that's true.
It honestly sounds like you are struggling with exactly the kinds of things mentally that one shouldn't be struggling with. 1000 years ago how many women do you think thought all the thoughts you're thinking with regards to children? Your thoughts aren't necessarily natural but perhaps a product of the environment. There's too much fear and over analysis in your thoughts about something so basic. If your ancestors had the same thoughts, you wouldn't be here today. These thoughts are due to the social structure of our society and the value subversion that has gone on...
Now keep in mind, I'm just saying all those to pose as a counter position to your own, so please don't take offense, as my intention is just to challenge your view not tell you that you are wrong, period...
With that being said, I understand your position exactly. I've spoken to some women who got pregnant around 20yo who are in their 30s and they say now that they're in their 30s, knowing themselves now, all career oriented, goal oriented, have their life all together, don't need any men in their life and are content with how things are going, they would never choose to have children... except they already have children and don't regret it at all. In fact the thought that they might not have chosen to have children scares them and they so happy they had children when they were younger. I would argue this is part of the subversion in society that is lowering women's desire for children. Women are biologically programmed to have children in their late teens and early twenties from a personality and hormone perspective. The idea that women should put that off in order to build an education + career actually leads to women missing their window so to speak. This is of course just one of the many factors going on in society.
Also, as a 32yo man who wants kids, let me tell you it's not easy to settle down at 40yo to have kids. Too many women in their 30s don't want kids and women in their 20s just want to fuck around. The women that want commitment get snatched up typically to men around their age in their early-mid twenties. Men have a window now too. I dated a psychiatrist for a while and she said there's a noticeable amount of increase in men with psychological problems seeking help regarding men feeling like they've hit their biological clock for kids but can't find women for it and it's negatively impacting their mental health.
Anyway, I think you're overthinking kids and that the joy from the obligation far outweighs the inconvenience. So what if your kid has a lower IQ or a weaker body? People adapt. As long as you love your child and they have that then they will still have a joyful experience at life. Also, no family was ever perfect, I'm sure your parents had issues and there were struggles while you were being raised but if they didn't do that, you wouldn't be hear. The struggle is part of what gives us our humanity. A life without it isn't a life worth living. You just live until you die without truly enjoying everything life has to offer.
In conclusion, I do think my sweeping generalizations are accurate and I think far more women fall into the category of my sweeping generalization, including yourself, but that society subverts these natural inclinations due to the structure of our society, which isn't to the benefit of society, men or women. I also have seen exactly what you've described with so many women in life and I've talked about it with them. Too many believe at some level that they need a career and they need to be independent from men because that is what they've been told to believe but I can see the anxiety and constant duality in the struggle within them where I too just think, why are you even hear? It's a shame because I see how it negatively impacts relationships as well because a lot of times, the men would actually appreciate a more involved wife/husband and a less busy one. The actual value-add to a relationship from a woman working who doesn't even want to work is negative. It negatively impacts her personality and mood while not providing any real value to the man. Bigger houses and nicer cars really doesn't mean anything.
I think there has always been women who didn’t fit the mold. They had a word for it: “spinster”. That implied the woman being unhappy sure, but I’m willing to bet many were happy not having to live under anyone’s thumb. Way back hundreds of years ago, you’d need permission from your husband to do anything it was absolutely outrageous. Of course there were women who resented it. There’s also been lots of women throughout history who made huge achievements with and without kids/husbands so it’s obvious many women did want to pursue things beyond the home in life. It is objectively harder to do that as a woman than a man since women are the primary caregivers. We for the most part can’t have it all the way a man can unless we call all our own shots and are beholden to no one job wise.
Re: my experience, I grew up in the south. My mom always told me to stay pretty/skinny and to get a good man. I definitely did do that, it’s just the having kids part I take issue with. I’m VERY glad I didn’t have them young I was such a naive idiot for far too long haha. I definitely was not indoctrinated in to any feminist bullshit, I’ve always been a severe individualist and naturally rebellious not for rebellions sake but simply because I never fit any checkboxes. I’m physically feminine but not a girly girl, attracted to manly men, but also think and act more like a “typical” man (rational, assertive, logical, rarely emotional).
Thing is I am in a great position to have kids if I wanted. I run a tech business from home with remote employees. He also makes money. I can make my own schedule. I don’t really have a reason to postpone from a career perspective. I literally just don’t want to be pregnant and it’s not over analyzing. I’ve talked to a lot of women with kids and some are like oh I loved being pregnant and others are like it almost killed me...so maybe you need to research how bad pregnancy can actually be for many women and you won’t know which type you’ll be until you try it. It isn’t just cosmetic body changes. It can fuck up your ab muscles, metabolism, even make you contract a weird type of diabetes and not to mention post partum depression. I resent that I have to make all these physical sacrifices for “purpose” (when I feel like I have a lot of purpose with the ethical side of my company), and all the guy has to do is ejaculate. And then after you do that you can’t sleep a full night for like years bc the kid wakes up randomly and wants to suck your tit, NO THANKS. Trust me I actually wish I wasn’t so hung up on the pregnancy thing or like I could have the kid and he comes out like age 5. It’s just a mental block.
Would you be asking the same things of men who say they don’t want kids?
Personally, I'm a fan of Augustus Caesars take on people who don't have children. The quote was meant for men not women.
https://ibb.co/tzhFMCT
I totally understand how men wouldn't want to have children in our current society given the relationship structure and current view on roles. I wouldn't want to have children in a marriage where the woman worked 40 hours a week and expected me to care for the child 50/50 because she was busy during the day with her career. At a basic rational/logical level, that's basically the same as adding a dog, in which as you've described, creates additional work/stress/obligation. I would seriously consider what the point of the woman in this relationship structure was exactly in adding more work to my life without any additional benefit from the woman. If a woman was willing to stop working and raise the kids herself such that they were primarily her responsibility but I was support her in that role, then I would want kids. Not to mention, if someone is on this website, they likely are aware of the social indoctrination going on so home-schooling would be preferable; however, with a woman working full-time, that is infeasible. I think overall the relationship dynamic is only suitable for children when the man works and the woman raises the child. Both working + kids isn't desirable for me at all but I do desire kids just not under this structure, so I totally get men who think the same as me.