Uighurs are mostly Muslim, but the "chill" kind of Muslim from Central Asia that is into Sufism and views jihad as a spiritual battle with sin and all that jazz. That, and they mix Islamic beliefs with the animistic practices that existed before Islam came around in the 700s there.
Besides the human rights abuses, China is really screwing things up for the rest of the world, because due to their persecution of Uighurs, our "friends" in Al Qaida and other Salafist/Wahabbi groups are now getting a lot of support and radicalizing these people. So we may have a new generation of Islamic terrorists as a result.
I get where you are coming from, but I still don't totally agree. Allow me to elaborate.
For reference, I have degrees in both political science and theology. I'm not throwing that out there to try and suggest I am right because of degrees, but merely to contextualize that I have studied this stuff and my conclusion is that I am 100% against Islam, because it is a political-religious system and it's incompatible with Western values if followed to its logical conclusion.
That being said, Central Asian Islam really is pretty chill per se--not just in relation to other Islamic varieties. For instance, you'll see Buddhists and Hindus engaging in sectarian violence in Asia from time to time, so these religions, although generally more peaceful as a whole than Islam is as a whole, are not without their violent strands.
Central Asian Islam really is a rather mystical, different type of religion, and combining it with the animistic/shamanistic pre-Islamic beliefs is probably a big factor. Many Salafists/Wahabbists view Central Asian Islam as heretical.
Have you ever read Rumi, the founder of Sufism? Lots of great stuff there, but mostly because he was working in Asia Minor and ripping off Orthodox Christian spirituality to convert Christians to Islam. Most of what he says is taken straight out of our mystic writings. That being said, Rumi did practice a variety of Islam that is mystical, internal, and generally peaceful. This is what spread to Central Asia.
Do they still follow a pedo prophet? Of course. Again, I am not a Muslim apologist. But I doubt the average person really gets that Aisha was 9 (keep in mind, a lot of imams and Islamic scholars try to hide this fact) and the folks in Central Asia don't really follow all the hadiths, which is where the really insane stuff is found.
Why am I taking out this much time to write so much? Just because I think that we should be encouraging these mystical varieties of Islam as a kind of reformation of the religion. I view it as similar to how Jews in the OT used to massacre their neighbors' populations, but they don't act like that anymore. I don't think there is a lot of hope for Arab Muslims because of the constant stream of propaganda original to their own language, but these Central Asian Muslims are disconnected enough that I think we could invest money into trying to "break them off" of Islam and reforming it.
But to be clear, I am against Islam 100%, and my preference would be to convert them all to Christianity, but my above proposal would be a compromise or intermediate step.
No, it pretty much is a well-kept secret to people who are uneducated. Many Islamic imams and scholars claim that Aisha was 13 or 14, which was the generally-accepted age for females to marry in most cultures at that time.
So these people would not consider Mohammad to be a pedophile. We just have the facts and know the truth, so hence why I agreed with the original statement.
I used to try and convert Muslims to Christianity during college. Many of them really are in the dark about a lot of this stuff.
While this wave of persecution is somewhat new, China has been screwing around with Uighurs for decades.
China has two problems with them: a religious problem, and a nationalist problem.
Religiously, the Salafis and Wahabbists have been proselytizing them heavily since the fall of the Soviet Union--they had already been doing this for awhile in India and Pakistan--using the money the Saudis get from us buying their oil, they then fund madrasas to teach Wahabbism, which is NOT native to that area, Central Asia having its own indigenous variety of Islam (see my other comment for additional info). This influence has spread across the border into China, leading to a religious awakening of these people, which scares the hell out of China, not just because they are Muslims, but because they are religious at all and can't be controlled.
Politically/nationalistically, Uighurs are Turks, so Turkey has been trying to support the East Turkestan movement to destabilize China and strengthen its own Pan-Turkic political movement, so China is scared they will try to form their own country.
Agree with you about the justifiably of the attacks the Uighurs have done in past years in China. If we follow the logic of the US Declaration of Independence, then the Uighurs have every right to resist China with violence to free their own nation, or alternatively, seek a federalized solution with China where they would have real autonomy, rather than fake autonomy.
Well, I am just rambling now, since I find this topic so interesting; I will stop now. :)
The history of the Turkish/steppe people vs China is incredibly fascinating! Very interesting how the USSR used them after the Sino/Soviet split.
I'm also kinda amazed Turkey and/or prominent Muslim countries like Saudia or Pakistan seem to care so little about the situation. That plus the pretty widely spread Hui people in China it seems like there is real potential for escalation, although I hear they have been used to oppress their fellow Muslims in Xinjiang apparently resulting in a chant of "Kill the Han, kill the Hui." in the 2009 riots.
You very much misunderstood my comment. I was saying its justified for those massively oppressed people to fight their authoritarian government, I don't like the targeting of innocent civilians but as a general note it seems somewhat justified when you're being actively genocided.
First of all, no one said anything about respecting Muslims. The point was not to genocide Uighurs.
You don't think it's a good idea to prevent terrorism by preventing human rights violations against these people and investing resources toward supporting factions in Islam that are reformist? Seems to me the alternative is to allow terrorist attacks to happen and then get involved in retributive wars that engulf our country for decades.
Uighurs are mostly Muslim, but the "chill" kind of Muslim from Central Asia that is into Sufism and views jihad as a spiritual battle with sin and all that jazz. That, and they mix Islamic beliefs with the animistic practices that existed before Islam came around in the 700s there.
Besides the human rights abuses, China is really screwing things up for the rest of the world, because due to their persecution of Uighurs, our "friends" in Al Qaida and other Salafist/Wahabbi groups are now getting a lot of support and radicalizing these people. So we may have a new generation of Islamic terrorists as a result.
Thanks, CCP :(
Regardless of what 'flavor' of Islam they are. They still follow a pedophile prophet.
That is only 'chill when compared to other flavors of Islam.
I get where you are coming from, but I still don't totally agree. Allow me to elaborate.
For reference, I have degrees in both political science and theology. I'm not throwing that out there to try and suggest I am right because of degrees, but merely to contextualize that I have studied this stuff and my conclusion is that I am 100% against Islam, because it is a political-religious system and it's incompatible with Western values if followed to its logical conclusion.
That being said, Central Asian Islam really is pretty chill per se--not just in relation to other Islamic varieties. For instance, you'll see Buddhists and Hindus engaging in sectarian violence in Asia from time to time, so these religions, although generally more peaceful as a whole than Islam is as a whole, are not without their violent strands.
Central Asian Islam really is a rather mystical, different type of religion, and combining it with the animistic/shamanistic pre-Islamic beliefs is probably a big factor. Many Salafists/Wahabbists view Central Asian Islam as heretical.
Have you ever read Rumi, the founder of Sufism? Lots of great stuff there, but mostly because he was working in Asia Minor and ripping off Orthodox Christian spirituality to convert Christians to Islam. Most of what he says is taken straight out of our mystic writings. That being said, Rumi did practice a variety of Islam that is mystical, internal, and generally peaceful. This is what spread to Central Asia.
Do they still follow a pedo prophet? Of course. Again, I am not a Muslim apologist. But I doubt the average person really gets that Aisha was 9 (keep in mind, a lot of imams and Islamic scholars try to hide this fact) and the folks in Central Asia don't really follow all the hadiths, which is where the really insane stuff is found.
Why am I taking out this much time to write so much? Just because I think that we should be encouraging these mystical varieties of Islam as a kind of reformation of the religion. I view it as similar to how Jews in the OT used to massacre their neighbors' populations, but they don't act like that anymore. I don't think there is a lot of hope for Arab Muslims because of the constant stream of propaganda original to their own language, but these Central Asian Muslims are disconnected enough that I think we could invest money into trying to "break them off" of Islam and reforming it.
But to be clear, I am against Islam 100%, and my preference would be to convert them all to Christianity, but my above proposal would be a compromise or intermediate step.
That says it all.
The only reason some of them may not know she was 9 is because they don't want to know.
It is not exactly a well kept secret.
Look to a pedo for leadership and guidance is supporting pedophiles.
When the #1 person in a religion is a sicko, the followers are sickos too.
No, it pretty much is a well-kept secret to people who are uneducated. Many Islamic imams and scholars claim that Aisha was 13 or 14, which was the generally-accepted age for females to marry in most cultures at that time.
So these people would not consider Mohammad to be a pedophile. We just have the facts and know the truth, so hence why I agreed with the original statement.
I used to try and convert Muslims to Christianity during college. Many of them really are in the dark about a lot of this stuff.
While this is mostly true there have been numerous (IMHO justified) Jihadi attacks against China/the CCP.
Several knife attacks and at least one attempted bombing that was thwarted a few years ago.
While this wave of persecution is somewhat new, China has been screwing around with Uighurs for decades.
China has two problems with them: a religious problem, and a nationalist problem.
Religiously, the Salafis and Wahabbists have been proselytizing them heavily since the fall of the Soviet Union--they had already been doing this for awhile in India and Pakistan--using the money the Saudis get from us buying their oil, they then fund madrasas to teach Wahabbism, which is NOT native to that area, Central Asia having its own indigenous variety of Islam (see my other comment for additional info). This influence has spread across the border into China, leading to a religious awakening of these people, which scares the hell out of China, not just because they are Muslims, but because they are religious at all and can't be controlled.
Politically/nationalistically, Uighurs are Turks, so Turkey has been trying to support the East Turkestan movement to destabilize China and strengthen its own Pan-Turkic political movement, so China is scared they will try to form their own country.
Agree with you about the justifiably of the attacks the Uighurs have done in past years in China. If we follow the logic of the US Declaration of Independence, then the Uighurs have every right to resist China with violence to free their own nation, or alternatively, seek a federalized solution with China where they would have real autonomy, rather than fake autonomy.
Well, I am just rambling now, since I find this topic so interesting; I will stop now. :)
The history of the Turkish/steppe people vs China is incredibly fascinating! Very interesting how the USSR used them after the Sino/Soviet split.
I'm also kinda amazed Turkey and/or prominent Muslim countries like Saudia or Pakistan seem to care so little about the situation. That plus the pretty widely spread Hui people in China it seems like there is real potential for escalation, although I hear they have been used to oppress their fellow Muslims in Xinjiang apparently resulting in a chant of "Kill the Han, kill the Hui." in the 2009 riots.
China has tons of Buddhists, but you don't see them being put in camps.
Wrong.
Where did I justify it even a little bit?
You very much misunderstood my comment. I was saying its justified for those massively oppressed people to fight their authoritarian government, I don't like the targeting of innocent civilians but as a general note it seems somewhat justified when you're being actively genocided.
"Guys, don't disrespect Muslims, they might RADICALIZE!!"
Nah, fuck muzzies.
LOL, for real?
First of all, no one said anything about respecting Muslims. The point was not to genocide Uighurs.
You don't think it's a good idea to prevent terrorism by preventing human rights violations against these people and investing resources toward supporting factions in Islam that are reformist? Seems to me the alternative is to allow terrorist attacks to happen and then get involved in retributive wars that engulf our country for decades.
I'd rather try the preventative strategy.
Why?
That applies to anyone, when you have no friends, you are driven to extreme measures.
If that was true, why are we going to court with the Left instead of just physically removing them?
jury box then ammo box and all that