I get where you are coming from, but I still don't totally agree. Allow me to elaborate.
For reference, I have degrees in both political science and theology. I'm not throwing that out there to try and suggest I am right because of degrees, but merely to contextualize that I have studied this stuff and my conclusion is that I am 100% against Islam, because it is a political-religious system and it's incompatible with Western values if followed to its logical conclusion.
That being said, Central Asian Islam really is pretty chill per se--not just in relation to other Islamic varieties. For instance, you'll see Buddhists and Hindus engaging in sectarian violence in Asia from time to time, so these religions, although generally more peaceful as a whole than Islam is as a whole, are not without their violent strands.
Central Asian Islam really is a rather mystical, different type of religion, and combining it with the animistic/shamanistic pre-Islamic beliefs is probably a big factor. Many Salafists/Wahabbists view Central Asian Islam as heretical.
Have you ever read Rumi, the founder of Sufism? Lots of great stuff there, but mostly because he was working in Asia Minor and ripping off Orthodox Christian spirituality to convert Christians to Islam. Most of what he says is taken straight out of our mystic writings. That being said, Rumi did practice a variety of Islam that is mystical, internal, and generally peaceful. This is what spread to Central Asia.
Do they still follow a pedo prophet? Of course. Again, I am not a Muslim apologist. But I doubt the average person really gets that Aisha was 9 (keep in mind, a lot of imams and Islamic scholars try to hide this fact) and the folks in Central Asia don't really follow all the hadiths, which is where the really insane stuff is found.
Why am I taking out this much time to write so much? Just because I think that we should be encouraging these mystical varieties of Islam as a kind of reformation of the religion. I view it as similar to how Jews in the OT used to massacre their neighbors' populations, but they don't act like that anymore. I don't think there is a lot of hope for Arab Muslims because of the constant stream of propaganda original to their own language, but these Central Asian Muslims are disconnected enough that I think we could invest money into trying to "break them off" of Islam and reforming it.
But to be clear, I am against Islam 100%, and my preference would be to convert them all to Christianity, but my above proposal would be a compromise or intermediate step.
No, it pretty much is a well-kept secret to people who are uneducated. Many Islamic imams and scholars claim that Aisha was 13 or 14, which was the generally-accepted age for females to marry in most cultures at that time.
So these people would not consider Mohammad to be a pedophile. We just have the facts and know the truth, so hence why I agreed with the original statement.
I used to try and convert Muslims to Christianity during college. Many of them really are in the dark about a lot of this stuff.
Many of them really are in the dark about a lot of this stuff.
I can see how that is possible. I grew up in a cult with extremely high levels of information control. The amount of things Jehovah's Witnesses don't know about their own cult is insane.
You can show them actual facts with sources and they won't belive it unless it comes from their own religious leaders.
The information is out there, they just don't care to look. Still on them in the long run.
Thanks for sharing your story, Pede! Back in college, I used to debate all sorts of cultists and other religions, as I was an energetic 18-21 year old who had just gotten into religion deeper myself (I grew up Protestant, dabbled in the Occult in my teens, and ended up becoming an Orthodox Christian, which I have been ever since). I still engage in religious discussions, but not on the same level and certainly not in outright debating style, as I lost a lot of energy for it and straight up debate only "works" with a small percentage of people.
That being said, at the time, I did tons of research on Jehovah's Witnesses. My aunt unfortunately succumbed to them when she was going blind and her eye doctor "took pity on her" and "invited her to a Bible study." Hey, I can't fault JWs for their dedication and techniques, which obviously work on some people, but it's the total information blackout that I disapprove of, which you note.
I used to engage the JWs that came to my door, so they started sending more and more people. Even the guy that did housework for us once ended up being JW. I swear, they have the most sophisticated networking operation (after Mormons, that is). But they will never look at your sources, that's right.
Hence, I resorted to the "plant seeds of doubt" approach. I can read Biblical and Patristic Greek on an elementary level, well enough to get the gist of basic things, and certainly well enough to compare a quote in Greek to the English translation. So when they handed me the booklet, "Should You Believe in the Trinity?" and I saw them massacring a quote from St. Basil the Great (known to be a staunch defender of the Trinity!), I started "asking" the missionary a bunch of questions, playing dumb, about why they were translating the quote wrong, who did the translation, etc. You could see the brain activity fear level rising, but because I was not showing him non-JW stuff, he entertained the discussion for awhile. I can only pray he converted eventually.
Now, fast forward to 2018, and the Venezuelan refugees that moved in next door to me are JWs and while they are cool and don't shove it on me, every time they have friends over, someone is handing me a booklet and asking me what I think about the end of the world LOL.
I get where you are coming from, but I still don't totally agree. Allow me to elaborate.
For reference, I have degrees in both political science and theology. I'm not throwing that out there to try and suggest I am right because of degrees, but merely to contextualize that I have studied this stuff and my conclusion is that I am 100% against Islam, because it is a political-religious system and it's incompatible with Western values if followed to its logical conclusion.
That being said, Central Asian Islam really is pretty chill per se--not just in relation to other Islamic varieties. For instance, you'll see Buddhists and Hindus engaging in sectarian violence in Asia from time to time, so these religions, although generally more peaceful as a whole than Islam is as a whole, are not without their violent strands.
Central Asian Islam really is a rather mystical, different type of religion, and combining it with the animistic/shamanistic pre-Islamic beliefs is probably a big factor. Many Salafists/Wahabbists view Central Asian Islam as heretical.
Have you ever read Rumi, the founder of Sufism? Lots of great stuff there, but mostly because he was working in Asia Minor and ripping off Orthodox Christian spirituality to convert Christians to Islam. Most of what he says is taken straight out of our mystic writings. That being said, Rumi did practice a variety of Islam that is mystical, internal, and generally peaceful. This is what spread to Central Asia.
Do they still follow a pedo prophet? Of course. Again, I am not a Muslim apologist. But I doubt the average person really gets that Aisha was 9 (keep in mind, a lot of imams and Islamic scholars try to hide this fact) and the folks in Central Asia don't really follow all the hadiths, which is where the really insane stuff is found.
Why am I taking out this much time to write so much? Just because I think that we should be encouraging these mystical varieties of Islam as a kind of reformation of the religion. I view it as similar to how Jews in the OT used to massacre their neighbors' populations, but they don't act like that anymore. I don't think there is a lot of hope for Arab Muslims because of the constant stream of propaganda original to their own language, but these Central Asian Muslims are disconnected enough that I think we could invest money into trying to "break them off" of Islam and reforming it.
But to be clear, I am against Islam 100%, and my preference would be to convert them all to Christianity, but my above proposal would be a compromise or intermediate step.
That says it all.
The only reason some of them may not know she was 9 is because they don't want to know.
It is not exactly a well kept secret.
Look to a pedo for leadership and guidance is supporting pedophiles.
When the #1 person in a religion is a sicko, the followers are sickos too.
No, it pretty much is a well-kept secret to people who are uneducated. Many Islamic imams and scholars claim that Aisha was 13 or 14, which was the generally-accepted age for females to marry in most cultures at that time.
So these people would not consider Mohammad to be a pedophile. We just have the facts and know the truth, so hence why I agreed with the original statement.
I used to try and convert Muslims to Christianity during college. Many of them really are in the dark about a lot of this stuff.
I can see how that is possible. I grew up in a cult with extremely high levels of information control. The amount of things Jehovah's Witnesses don't know about their own cult is insane.
You can show them actual facts with sources and they won't belive it unless it comes from their own religious leaders.
The information is out there, they just don't care to look. Still on them in the long run.
Thanks for sharing your story, Pede! Back in college, I used to debate all sorts of cultists and other religions, as I was an energetic 18-21 year old who had just gotten into religion deeper myself (I grew up Protestant, dabbled in the Occult in my teens, and ended up becoming an Orthodox Christian, which I have been ever since). I still engage in religious discussions, but not on the same level and certainly not in outright debating style, as I lost a lot of energy for it and straight up debate only "works" with a small percentage of people.
That being said, at the time, I did tons of research on Jehovah's Witnesses. My aunt unfortunately succumbed to them when she was going blind and her eye doctor "took pity on her" and "invited her to a Bible study." Hey, I can't fault JWs for their dedication and techniques, which obviously work on some people, but it's the total information blackout that I disapprove of, which you note.
I used to engage the JWs that came to my door, so they started sending more and more people. Even the guy that did housework for us once ended up being JW. I swear, they have the most sophisticated networking operation (after Mormons, that is). But they will never look at your sources, that's right.
Hence, I resorted to the "plant seeds of doubt" approach. I can read Biblical and Patristic Greek on an elementary level, well enough to get the gist of basic things, and certainly well enough to compare a quote in Greek to the English translation. So when they handed me the booklet, "Should You Believe in the Trinity?" and I saw them massacring a quote from St. Basil the Great (known to be a staunch defender of the Trinity!), I started "asking" the missionary a bunch of questions, playing dumb, about why they were translating the quote wrong, who did the translation, etc. You could see the brain activity fear level rising, but because I was not showing him non-JW stuff, he entertained the discussion for awhile. I can only pray he converted eventually.
Now, fast forward to 2018, and the Venezuelan refugees that moved in next door to me are JWs and while they are cool and don't shove it on me, every time they have friends over, someone is handing me a booklet and asking me what I think about the end of the world LOL.