The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.
— Psalm 5:5
Here it states that the Lord hates something. Whatever the person, place or thing that is, it's clearly stated.
We know that it's not referring to places or things, but people, since the verse says "You hate all who do iniquity."
We also know that whoever these people are, all of them are hated since the verse says "You hate all who do iniquity."
So then who are all of these people? Who does God love and who does He hate?
This is where Jacob and Esau come into play. Before Rebekah birthed them, this is what was said to her, and this is what was said of them.
The Lord said to her, “Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body; And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the older shall serve the younger.” When her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.
— Genesis 25:23-24
Not only did Rebekah physically birth twins, she spiritually birthed two peoples, with each living in two spiritual nations.
Jacob represents the spiritual nation of Israel, and Esau represents the spiritual nation of Edom. Proof of this is found here in the following verses:
God said to him,
“Your name is Jacob;
You shall no longer be called Jacob,
But Israel shall be your name.”
Thus He called him Israel.
— Genesis 35:10
and Esau said to Jacob, “Please let me have a swallow of that red stuff there, for I am famished.” Therefore his name was called Edom.
— Genesis 25:30
So Esau lived in the hill country of Seir; Esau is Edom.
— Genesis 36:8
What does it say about God's love and hatred regarding Jacob and Esau, and thus Israel and Edom - the two peoples within these two nations that Jacob and Esau spiritually represent? Read carefully the following passage.
The oracle of the word of the Lord to Israel through Malachi. “I have loved you,” says the Lord. But you say, “How have You loved us?” “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness.” Though Edom says, “We have been beaten down, but we will return and build up the ruins”; thus says the Lord of hosts, “They may build, but I will tear down; and men will call them the wicked territory, and the people toward whom the Lord is indignant forever.” Your eyes will see this and you will say, “The Lord be magnified beyond the border of Israel!”
— Malachi 1:1-5
A message to Israel, that is, spiritual Israel. God has loved them, just as He loves Jacob, who allegorically represents them spiritually. Israel, according to God, responds with "How?" Since they argue that Esau is Jacob's brother. They argue this because they understand that God in fact does hate Esau. They question His love for them, that is, spiritual Israel (that is, prior to their conversions), based on the fact Jacob is Esau's twin. But the Lord responds back, and confirms His love for Jacob, despite even the fact Jacob is Esau's twin brother.
The Lord then goes on to talk about Esau, calling him Edom, because Esau is Edom and Esau spiritually represents Edom. He is also called the father of the Edomites in Genesis 36:9. That is, he is their spiritual father. Two nations and two peoples came out of Rebekah's womb. The Israelites and the Edomites (spiritual people, not physical).
Look at the passage in Malachi again. God says He has made Esau's mountains a desolation. Esau was actually given a mountain as a possession from God Himself. It is again, a spiritual mountain.
do not provoke them, for I will not give you any of their land, even as little as a footstep because I have given Mount Seir to Esau as a possession.
— Deuteronomy 2:5
This mountain is located in Edom, it is a desolation and a place for jackals, those whom God hates. Edom is a wicked territory, and the Edomites are a people whom the Lord is indignant toward forever, meaning throughout all of eternity. Esau represents those people whom God will not save. He will not choose any of them, and does not love them.
The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; ****You hate all who do iniquity.****
— Psalm 5:5
Here it states that the Lord hates something. Whatever the person, place or thing that is, it's clearly stated.
We know that it's not referring to places or things, but people, since the verse says "You hate all *****who***** do iniquity."
We also know that whoever these people are, all of them are hated since the verse says "You hate *****all***** who do iniquity."
So then who are all of these people? Who does God love and who does He hate?
This is where Jacob and Esau come into play. Before Rebekah birthed them, this is what was said to her, and this is what was said of them.
The Lord said to her, “*****Two nations* are in your womb; And *two peoples* will be separated from your body;**** And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the older shall serve the younger.” When her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.
— Genesis 25:23-24
Not only did Rebekah physically birth twins, she spiritually birthed two peoples, with each living in two spiritual nations.
Jacob represents the spiritual nation of Israel, and Esau represents the spiritual nation of Edom. Proof of this is found here in the following verses:
God said to him,
“Your name is Jacob;
You shall no longer be called Jacob,
But Israel shall be your name.”
Thus He called him Israel.
— Genesis 35:10
and Esau said to Jacob, “Please let me have a swallow of that red stuff there, for I am famished.” Therefore his name was called Edom.
— Genesis 25:30
So Esau lived in the hill country of Seir; Esau is Edom.
— Genesis 36:8
What does it say about God's love and hatred regarding Jacob and Esau, and thus Israel and Edom - the two peoples within these two nations that Jacob and Esau spiritually represent? Read carefully the following passage.
The oracle of the word of the Lord ****to Israel**** through Malachi. ****“I have loved you,”**** says the Lord. But you say, “How have You loved us?” “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. ****“Yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau,**** and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness.” Though ****Edom**** says, “We have been beaten down, but we will return and build up the ruins”; thus says the Lord of hosts, “They may build, but I will tear down; and ****men will call them the wicked territory, and the people toward whom the Lord is indignant forever.”**** Your eyes will see this and you will say, “The Lord be magnified ****beyond the border of Israel!”****
— Malachi 1:1-5
A message to Israel, that is, spiritual Israel. God has loved them, just as He loves Jacob, who allegorically represents them spiritually. Israel, according to God, responds with "How?" Since they argue that Esau is Jacob's brother. They argue this because they understand that God in fact does hate Esau. They question His love for them, that is, spiritual Israel (that is, prior to their conversions), based on the fact Jacob is Esau's twin. But the Lord responds back, and confirms His love for Jacob, despite even the fact Jacob is Esau's twin brother.
The Lord then goes on to talk about Esau, calling him Edom, because Esau is Edom and Esau spiritually represents Edom. He is also called the father of the Edomites in Genesis 36:9. That is, he is their spiritual father. Two nations and two peoples came out of Rebekah's womb. The Israelites and the Edomites (spiritual people, not physical).
Look at the passage in Malachi again. God says He has made Esau's mountains a desolation. Esau was actually given a mountain as a possession from God Himself. It is again, a spiritual mountain.
do not provoke them, for I will not give you any of their land, even as little as a footstep ****because I have given Mount Seir to Esau as a possession.****
— Deuteronomy 2:5
This mountain is located in Edom, it is a desolation and a place for jackals, those whom God hates. Edom is a wicked territory, and the Edomites are a people whom the Lord is indignant toward forever, meaning throughout all of eternity. Esau represents those people whom God will not save. He will not choose any of them, and does not love them.
God is longsuffering towards all not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance
God takes no pleasure in the death of a wicked man
I am come not to call the righteous to repentance but sinners
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. — 2 Peter 3:9
Toward the elect, not wishing for any to perish but for all of the elect to repent.
And He will grant repentance to all of His elect at the time He desires to grant it to them.
Predestination is a huge can of worms the Calvinist claims God hardens their heart and yet Jesus when he healed the man with the withered hand is grieved for their hardness of heart. How can he be grieved over it if he caused it?
Or how about when Jesus tells the two cities that if the works that he had done in them had been done in Sodom and Gomorra they would have repented. Doesn't sound like Jesus thought the men of Sodom were doomed to hell before the day they were born.
It's not a matter of how many agree. I've presented the air tight case for this. If anyone disagrees, they can try to find the cracks in it.
What you have to understand is the world is evil, and the world is full of darkness. The world hated Jesus, and still hates Jesus - and the world also hates believers.
An evildoer listens to wicked lips; A liar pays attention to a destructive tongue. — Proverbs 17:4
Only God in mercy has the ability to make anyone listen to the truth. Apart from God giving anyone ears to hear, all will remain deaf.
The hearing ear and the seeing eye, The Lord has made both of them. — Proverbs 20:12
H.A. Ironside , Pastor of Moody Bible Church for 30+ years, Lectures on Romans, This passage is not about Predestination to Heaven or Hell, but is about the earthly privilege's that God gave to each.
What passage are you referring to?
"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (vers. 11-13). What a tremendous amount of needless controversy has raged about these verses! Yet how plain and simple they are, viewed in the light of God's dispensational dealings. There is no question here of predestination to heaven or reprobation to hell; in fact, eternal issues do not really come in throughout this chapter, although, of course, they naturally follow as the result of the use or abuse of God-given privileges. But we are not told here, nor anywhere else, that before children are born it is God's purpose to send one to heaven and another to hell; to save one by grace, notwithstanding all his evil works, and to condemn the other to perdition, notwithstanding all his yearnings for something higher and nobler than he has yet found The passage has to do entirely with privilege here on earth. It was the purpose of God that Jacob should be the father of the nation of Israel, and that through him the promised Seed, our Lord Jesus Christ, should come into the world. He had also pre-determined that Esau should be a man of the wilderness—the father of a nation of nomads, as the Edomites have ever been. It is this that is involved in the pre-natal decree: "The elder shall serve the younger." And be it observed that it was not before the children were born, neither had done any good or evil, that God said, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." These words are quoted from the very last book of the Old Testament. We find them in Malachi 1: 2, 3. Let me read them: "I have loved you, saith the Lord, yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness." Observe what is in question:—God is pleading with the sons of Jacob to serve and obey Him, on the ground that He is doubly entitled to their obedience, first, because He is their Creator, second, because of the privileges, the earthly blessings He has given them. Comparatively speaking, He has loved Jacob, and hated Esau. That is, He gave to Jacob a beautiful fatherland, well-watered, productive, delightful for situation; He gave them, too, a holy law, pastors, shepherd-kings to guide them, prophets to instruct them, a ritual system full and expressive to lead their hearts out in worship and praise. All these things were denied to Edom. They were the children of the desert. We do not read that a prophet was ever sent to them, though they were not left without some knowledge of God. Esau received instruction from the lips of his parents, but for a morsel of bread he sold his birthright. And his descendants have ever been characterized by the same independent lawless spirit. Dispensationally, Jacob was loved, Esau hated. There is no reference to the individual as such. "God so loved the world," and therefore every child of Jacob or of Esau may be saved who will. But no one can dispute the fact that Jacob and his descendants enjoyed earthly privileges, and spiritual, too, that Esau and his children had never known. Is God unrighteous in thus distinguishing between nations? Is He unrighteous, for instance, to-day in giving to the peoples of northern Europe and of America privileges that the inhabitants of central Africa and inland South America have never known? By no means. He is sovereign. He distributes the nations of men upon the earth as seems good to Himself, and though He takes up one nation in special grace and passes by another, that does not in the slightest degree hinder any individual in any nation from turning to God in repentance, and if any men anywhere under the sun, in any circumstances whatever, look up to God, no matter how deep their ignorance, confessing their sin and crying out for mercy, it is written, "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Paul quotes the word of God to Moses: "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." Observe, you do not get the negative. He does not say, "I will condemn whom I will condemn, or I will reprobate to eternal destruction whom I will reprobate." There is no such thought in the mind of God, who "desireth not the death of the sinner, but that all should turn to Him and live." When were these words spoken to Moses? Turn back to Exodus 33:19. Read the entire passage, and note the occasion on which God used them. Israel had forfeited all claim to blessing on the ground of law; they had made a calf of gold and bowed down before it, even while Moses was in the mount receiving the tables of the covenant. Thus they had violated the first two commandments before they were brought into the camp, after having declared but a few days before, "All that the Lord hath spoken will we do, and be obedient." Because of this, God was about to blot them out from the face of the earth, but Moses, the mediator, pleaded their cause in His presence. He even offered, as we have seen, to die in their stead, if that might turn aside the fierce anger of the Lord. But now observe the wonders of sovereign grace: God took refuge in His own inherent right to suspend judgment, if it pleased Him. And so He exclaims, "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will show mercy on whom I will show mercy." He spared the people, thus making them a wondrous witness to His grace. Apart from this sovereign grace no one would ever be saved, because all men have forfeited title to life through sin. Israel, nationally, owed all their blessing to God's mercy and compassion, when in righteousness they would have been cut off from the land of the living. If it pleased God now to take up the Gentiles and show mercy to them, what ground had Israel to complain? So, then, exclaims the apostle, "It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." He is not setting aside the will of man; he is not declaring that no responsibility to run in the way of righteousness rests upon man; but he is declaring that, apart from the sovereign mercy of God, no man would ever will to be saved or run in the way of His commandments.
Oh wow, this is an extreme case of pure mental gymnastics. Romans 9 is most certainly dealing with heaven and hell. A man is either an vessel of wrath prepared for destruction or a vessel of mercy prepared beforehand for glory.
Greater minds than yours or mine have debated this subject for centuries, Bob Jones Sr, the evangelist who founded Bob Jones University used to say if you want to learn about Predestination you come talk to us evangelists because God is in the business of saving mens souls. He believed anyone could be saved, evangelists are like that.
It sounds a lot like Bob didn't know what he was talking about.
He knew enough to save countless souls that makes him pretty wise in God's eyes. I would rather be wrong about Predestination and have the gratitude of thousands of souls in Heaven someday for pointing them to Jesus than to spend my earthly life debating Predestination and never win a soul for Christ.
False converts happen every day. There are millions in America walking around everywhere. Few people are saved in this world.
Therefore, a curse devours the earth, and those who live in it are held guilty. Therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left. — Isaiah 24:6
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. — Matthew 7:13-14
And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able." — Luke 13:23-24
I think of the platitude "hate the sin love the sinner." God certainly hates sin.
He is also not a calm, passive God. I think that modern Christianity plays down the wrathful, vengeful, angry God. See "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" Jonathan Edwards, 1741. He has a right to be angered, as well as saddened, by our falling short of what He asks of us.
However, a commentary on another passage in Psalms suggests that "As "hate" is used here, we should not conclude that God is speaking of a virulent and malignant passion that desires to destroy the life of another. The words "loathe" or "grieved," as modern translations use, defines and limits the hatred to deep sorrow for or strong disapproval of the conduct of those under discussion." (https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/16261/eVerseID/16262)
I have never considered that God could hate some of His creation. It makes sense, though. My only hesitation is that He loved the world enough to save us, certainly He loves us all. At the end of the day we're creatures of limited understanding trying to make sense of that which we cannot.
I realize that this comment is not really making a point. It's more of a ramble as I think about this. I would love a response though.
I'm not sure where hate the sin love the sinner came from or it's origin but in Psalm 5:5 it says "hate all who do iniquity.* Which means the who refers to people (like Esau) and not things (Esau's sins). God does hate sin as well, but here it refers to all of the people who do iniquity.
A lot of the prophecy in the OT begins to make much more sense when this is believed. For example, continuing off the fact that Esau is Edom, and Mount Seir is Esau's mountain, we can go to Ezekiel 35.
Moreover, the word of the Lord came to me saying, “Son of man, set your face against Mount Seir, and prophesy against it and say to it, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am against you, Mount Seir, And I will stretch out My hand against you And make you a desolation and a waste. “I will lay waste your cities And you will become a desolation. Then you will know that I am the Lord. Because you have had everlasting enmity and have delivered the sons of Israel to the power of the sword at the time of their calamity, at the time of the punishment of the end, therefore as I live,” declares the Lord God, “I will give you over to bloodshed, and bloodshed will pursue you; since you have not hated bloodshed, therefore bloodshed will pursue you. I will make Mount Seir a waste and a desolation and I will cut off from it the one who passes through and returns. I will fill its mountains with its slain; on your hills and in your valleys and in all your ravines those slain by the sword will fall. I will make you an everlasting desolation and your cities will not be inhabited. Then you will know that I am the Lord. “Because you have said, ‘These two nations and these two lands will be mine, and we will possess them,’ although the Lord was there, therefore as I live,” declares the Lord God, “I will deal with you according to your anger and according to your envy which you showed because of your hatred against them; so I will make Myself known among them when I judge you. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have heard all your revilings which you have spoken against the mountains of Israel saying, ‘They are laid desolate; they are given to us for food.’ And you have spoken arrogantly against Me and have multiplied your words against Me; I have heard it.” Thus says the Lord God, “As all the earth rejoices, I will make you a desolation. As you rejoiced over the inheritance of the house of Israel because it was desolate, so I will do to you. You will be a desolation, O Mount Seir, and all Edom, all of it. Then they will know that I am the Lord.”’ — Ezekiel 35:1-15
Then this one in Obediah.
The vision of Obadiah.Thus says the Lord God concerning Edom— We have heard a report from the Lord, And an envoy has been sent among the nations saying, “Arise and let us go against her for battle”— “Behold, I will make you small among the nations; You are greatly despised. “The arrogance of your heart has deceived you, You who live in the clefts of the rock, In the loftiness of your dwelling place, Who say in your heart, ‘Who will bring me down to earth?’ “Though you build high like the eagle, Though you set your nest among the stars, From there I will bring you down,” declares the Lord. “If thieves came to you, If robbers by night— O how you will be ruined!— Would they not steal only until they had enough? If grape gatherers came to you, Would they not leave some gleanings? “O how Esau will be ransacked, And his hidden treasures searched out! “All the men allied with you Will send you forth to the border, And the men at peace with you Will deceive you and overpower you. They who eat your bread Will set an ambush for you. (There is no understanding in him.) “Will I not on that day,” declares the Lord, “Destroy wise men from Edom And understanding from the mountain of Esau? “Then your mighty men will be dismayed, O Teman, So that everyone may be cut off from the mountain of Esau by slaughter. “Because of violence to your brother Jacob, You will be covered with shame, And you will be cut off forever. “On the day that you stood aloof, On the day that strangers carried off his wealth, And foreigners entered his gate And cast lots for Jerusalem— You too were as one of them. “Do not gloat over your brother’s day, The day of his misfortune. And do not rejoice over the sons of Judah In the day of their destruction; Yes, do not boast In the day of their distress. “Do not enter the gate of My people In the day of their disaster. Yes, you, do not gloat over their calamity In the day of their disaster. And do not loot their wealth In the day of their disaster. “Do not stand at the fork of the road To cut down their fugitives; And do not imprison their survivors In the day of their distress.
“For the day of the Lord draws near on all the nations. As you have done, it will be done to you. Your dealings will return on your own head. “Because just as you drank on My holy mountain, All the nations will drink continually. They will drink and swallow And become as if they had never existed. “But on Mount Zion there will be those who escape, And it will be holy. And the house of Jacob will possess their possessions. “Then the house of Jacob will be a fire And the house of Joseph a flame; But the house of Esau will be as stubble. And they will set them on fire and consume them, So that there will be no survivor of the house of Esau,” For the Lord has spoken. Then those of the Negev will possess the mountain of Esau, And those of the Shephelah the Philistine plain; Also, possess the territory of Ephraim and the territory of Samaria, And Benjamin will possess Gilead. And the exiles of this host of the sons of Israel, Who are among the Canaanites as far as Zarephath, And the exiles of Jerusalem who are in Sepharad Will possess the cities of the Negev. The deliverers will ascend Mount Zion To judge the mountain of Esau, And the kingdom will be the Lord’s. — Obadiah 1-21