The basis of this argument lies in who God is, in connection to the principle behind how much something is worth.
Some things in life are worth more than others, for example.
But the people said, “You should not go out; for if we indeed flee, they will not care about us; even if half of us die, they will not care about us. But you are worth ten thousand of us; therefore now it is better that you be ready to help us from the city.” — 2 Samuel 18:3
The people with king David acknowledged that he was worth 10,000 of them. If a man punches another man, a certain harsh punishment will be carried out, maybe. If a man punches the king, he'd probably be hung or killed right there on sight. Why? Because a king is worth more than a citizen.
The tongue of the righteous is as choice silver, The heart of the wicked is worth little. — Proverbs 10:20
A wicked man's heart is worth less than a believer's tongue.
An excellent wife, who can find? For her worth is far above jewels. — Proverbs 31:10
An excellent wife is worth a lot, more than jewels. They are rare to find.
Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? — Matthew 6:26
Believers are worth much more than a flock of birds.
The point is that sinning against things of certain value will cause justice to be weighed differently. If I kill, my punishment will be in accordance with what I've killed. If what I've killed has little value, say a fly on the wall, then the demands of justice required against me will be little. If I kill a man then the demands of justice required against me are higher. A king of a nation, worth 10,000 as much, even higher still.
But to sin against the God of all the earth, whose worth is indescribable, no man can comprehend what he has done. The demands of justice against someone sinning against God required are indescribable.
So much so that in order to pay for them one must suffer eternal torment in hell.
Never thought about it this way. Incredible!
Fortunately, a sacrifice of unimaginable worth was made on my behalf.
I'm thankful for that.
Was it made on behalf of people who end up going to hell as well?
This is the same shit we argued about on Friday. I have accepted grace, repented, and picked up my cross and followed Him. Few will do so, most will not, narrow is the way.
That is what He asks. [Demands actually, as He is the Architect of all creation]
Now, if you want to believe that God doesn't believe in self-determination, why did he put the tree in the garden to begin with? He could have said, "x number of folks in Heaven", and let us breed until we hit that number, them harvest.
But He didn't. He seems to WANT us to CHOOSE him for whatever reason.
The fall was planned. There needed to be a fall. In order for God to glorify His great name as Redeemer, there needed to be something to redeem. In order to glorify Himself as Savior, there needed to exist a people in need of salvation. God is a merciful God, a perfect world has no need for mercy. No need for grace either. Everything God does, He does for His own glory, and for the sake of His own great name, so that men will know that He is the Lord.
“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,” declares the Lord God, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. — Ezekiel 36:22-23
I know that everything God does will remain forever; there is nothing to add to it and there is nothing to take from it, for God has so worked that men should fear Him. — Ecclesiastes 3:14
“Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’; Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it. — Isaiah 46:9-11
The only people receiving it are those God gives it to. God only gives it to His chosen elect people.
There are different types of calls, it's tricky. Some are called to hear the gospel but they aren't chosen. There is also another call. Called to salvation.
For many are called, but few are chosen.” — Matthew 22:14
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. — Romans 8:30
The first call is a call to repent and believe the gospel. Many are called to this, but few are chosen for salvation who hear it.
The other call Paul talks about is different. Everyone called with this call are chosen, as all of them are predestined and will all be justified before God.
Look at the word, pre-destined, says it right in the word.
Romans 1:28 isn't referring to reprobation, it's referring to the group of people who basically don't go to church, they are the prodigals. In contrast to chapter 2 where it talks about all the religious folks. All of them are the same, completely lost. That's basically Paul's point.
Basically a good way to put it would be chapter one deals with liberals in general, and chapter 2 deals with conservatives in general.
In Jesus' day you had the Pharisees and "sinners."
In our day you have Republicans and liberals. There are relatively small differences but for the most part same picture.
Not everyone is called to hear the gospel but many are. Some live and die and never hear it. Of those that are preached the gospel, few end up believing, and in the end, few are saved.
Thank God for Grace
It's not really a punishment thing. God has created and sent out into the world many souls, and He wants us to return to Him willingly, having experienced free will and all that it entails, but He will not be contaminated by evil in any form, so only souls willing to be purified in the afterlife through Jesus (salvation) are able to return to God. If a soul is unwilling to go through this process, they can't come rest in God's presence in heaven. There can be no contamination. The only other option is the realm where all things go that can't be with God, which includes all entities full of malice and other nasty traits, in essence. Jesus likened this realm to several things, one of which was the smoldering grave pits of the culture He taught in the flesh, but among His other explanations it's clear that He was emphasizing that a realm without God at all is a very, very bad place for a soul to be. You don't want to get left in the outer darkness, and God doesn't necessarily want you to be left out, but again there can be no contamination in His spiritual realm.
God has three great loves: His Holiness His Justice Man When man sinned God had to choose but He didn't want to lose the other two, he loves Man but man sinned and his holiness and justice demands payment, If he forgave man he would lose justice, being Holy he is absolute purity and perfection. God chose to pay man's sin debt (death and Hell) Himself. He became man so he could die our death for us because we all owe the death penalty for our sins. All who receive Christ's payment for their sins will be saved. All who reject him will pay the penalty themselves. Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death(eternal death, Hell) but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". payment for sin = Hell Gift of God eternal life = heaven Nobody earns heaven it is a gift from God, he won't force anyone to receive his gift, but all who do go to heaven.