these people think UBI will let them do artistic shit
If UBI / Communism is ever enacted, the "party" will then get to choose your occupation.
If "a job" is a "right" to these people, they won't much like the "jobs" that are given to them
You think the Soviets drank because they like alcohol? No, they fucking hated their lives and their jobs and used it like any other aloholic, to escape.
Yes. In Czechoslovakia under communist rule, having a job was mandatory. Not having a job was a crime. Most of the jobs sucked. And there was a constant shortage of some common and necessary items - toilet paper, sanitary pads, batteries... One shop assistant called the police just because I asked for AA batteries. No kidding. It was a provocation against the state because everybody knew that there are no AA batteries in the markets.
Alkaline batteries in the communist Czechoslovakia? No way, that would be a hard-currency import not available for sale to a regular citizen.
The discussed merchandise would have old-style zinc-carbon cells that were mass-manufactured either locally or in a friendly Comecon/Warsaw pact country, Thus R6, not LR6.
In the pie in the sky world of UBI, they proclaim that its the wealthy who will be taxed to pay for it, basically taking from the rich to raise up the poor.
But what they always fail to realize, the rich, ie wealthy corporations and individuals, never EVER give up their cut of the profit. If something comes along that would lower their cut of the profits, its transferred to someone or something else, always down, never up.
Example, if low level worker wages are raised, does the profit come from the owners or ceo's? No,never, it is transferred back down, either in higher prices for the consumer, or fewer jobs for the lower level workers, or a reduction in benefits or tightening of the budgets, but never from the profits.
In UBI, which comes from the government, that money is raised from the wealthy correct? see, the wealthy is not going to take that tax off the top, they will pass the cost of higher taxes from anywhere but the profits,
They will raise the cost of what they sell, cut back on jobs, etc. whatever they have to do to pay for it.
And the dumbass who thinks he is going to stay in his parents basement and just ride along on his UBI is going to find his money just don't go as far as he thought it would, not to mention the poor working stiff trying to provide for his family and actually pays taxes.
The argument for UBI is that we need a counter to automation but there are two opposing viewpoints for how we combat it:
Bernie/AOC wants to propose a Federal Jobs Guarantee which is a gateway towards communism. Bernie wants everyone to receive a stable job and a living wage. AOC wants everyone to receive all the benefits you could ever imagine + a FAMILY sustaining wage. Both of their ideas are stupid and would effectively place the private sector under government control.
Andrew Yang wants a UBI, paid for by a VAT tax at half Europe's rate to give everyone $1000 a month. I have a few thoughts about this:
1). He mentioned excluding items from the VAT but without specifications, I'd be reluctant to embrace it.
2). He mentions the VAT tax but he has gone on record stating that his UBI would count as additional income
"So the freedom dividend itself isn't taxed but it may push you so if you're making like $50k then with the freedom dividend you'd be making $62k so the increment on top you might end up getting taxed on but the freedom dividend itself is not taxed"
So basically, the problem isn't that you are pushed into a "Higher tax bracket", the problem is that you are getting "pushed" at all. This means that the UBI is subjected to a VAT Tax, Federal Income Tax and State Tax(Depending on where you live). This is a far cry from the $1000 proposal that Yang suggests.
Like, I support some form of a UBI but I wouldn't trust anyone to implement it without fucking everyone over in the process. Feel free to use my sources if you want to debate people about this. I am open minded but I don't like being lied to by politicians.
Added clarification to avoid confusion:
I support the concept of a UBI but the fact that Andrew Yang is blatantly lying about the fact that it counts as additional income should tell everyone what you need to know. He says that it's meant to liberate you from the Federal Government but yet you are forced to hand it back over through a VAT Tax and a Federal Income Tax. On top of those two taxes, you have to pay a State Income Tax(Depending on where you live) when it's added up to your total income.
Most people don't know this so I shared the sources that you guys can use.
Automation has been happening for generations. Jobs are still there, they're just easier and less monotonous. I guess it's possible that jobs could just disappear someday and only a tiny percentage of people are generating income and keeping it all, but as of now that's just a myth or science fiction.
I know, I made my post to explain how the Democrats are using the threat of automation to fuck everyone over just like covid/climate change
More clarification: Andrew Yang fucks you over through the UBI counting as additional income. He tells you that it is subjected to only a VAT tax and NEVER brings up the fact that it could push you up to a higher tax bracket, which means that it is effectively taxed. It's a huge contradiction and he is never questioned about it.
Same with Elon...in the world they envision most jobs will be autonomous and that could cause a problem... I dont have the answer but in their scifi world they have a point if it gets to that...but theres no definite proof we wont continue to create other means of employment
They've said that for 60 years and every time they automate something more important and it fails, they blame human error, so then they put more people around to monitor the robots.
They'll pay two $60,000 engineers to babysit a multi-million dollar robot rather than two $40,000 laborers to just do the work.
My argument as to why the economy will never be fully automated is that as new jobs/industries come into existence, it will take time to develop technology to automate it. And before all those jobs are automated, new jobs/industries will pop up, and so on and so forth.
That's exactly it. The self driven will dry smash a bunch of jobs. But even then they think they will need a human for that last mile /unload cargo etc
absolutely not, no new federal taxes for things not explicitly written in the constitution.
States can do whatever they want within their own state.
any time "the government" collects anything from you, they need to pay bureaucrats to "manage" it.
The only acceptable answer is national Tariffs being used to offset individual tax liability, meaning those producing exportable goods have their tax liability offset by the tarriff income produced by those choosing to pay for imported (tarriffed) goods.
The premise that automation will replace jobs faster than we can replace them is assumed. It is not proven. Quite the opposite, evidence is showing that new industries are developing with every newly created automative technology.
I would support UBI if and only if we eliminated ALL of the following: Welfare, social security SSDI for non retirees, food stamps, Section 8 housing, federal disability, mandatory paid leave, heating assistance, obama phones, WIC, SNAP, medicaid, and that old fashioned delicious government cheese! With the money saved from that, we could easily run UBI, and with less fraud.
Before waking the hell up I was a socialist, and hung out with a lot of these faggots. They are all losers; the kids who weren't part of a sports team or even the art club in high school. Lots of druggies, all with daddy/parental issues, and extreme feelings of inferiority/self-hatred and displaced anger.
Anyways these people all think UBI will allow them to just be "artists" and "rappers" and shit. Their thought process is a 9th grade level "if we give everyone free money then they won't have to work to stay afloat, and they can pursue creativity/art/whatever and our society will prosper because everyone will be free to make and buy art."
Of course there's the question about who will do the necessary, but unenviable, jobs like garbage collector, and their belief is that people will either volunteer to collect trash (ha!) or we can set up some freshmen college level communal cleanup team and we all have a chore list to do (ha!).
I am not even shitting you. Those are unironically the beliefs of 80% of them. The rest know that's totally unrealistic, but don't voice it because they secretly do wish to implement a Stalinist regime and just use the others as useful idiots.
it's also telling how they believe "garbage collector" which is usually a 4 day work-week 6a-3p shifts working with 2-3 people you are generally close with is a "unenviable" job.
But then they tell us all about how racist and misogynistic and stressful and shitty corporate is but those are "enviable" jobs
It really clears things up when you realize that these people were all the losers you met in high school. Not just artsyfartsy types, but anime lovers, autists listening to Red Army songs on the bus, that kind of shit. A lot of them are for UBI and whatnot because they think they'll save on monthly expenses if the government pays for everything (even though they'll just pay for it in taxes. They're very short term thinkers), and that leaves them more money for consumerist shit like Marvel movies, Funko Pops, wine, and exotic vacations.
So for anyone wondering why all these soycialists have the latest iPhones and also get laughably pissed when you post Star Wars spoilers; that's why.
and their belief is that people will either volunteer to collect trash
Currently I am living in complex with 7 other units in Australia. There are people mainly people who are not of European legacy culture living here. Between myself and the only other "white guy" living here, we did a massive clean up this year around the property due to a Chinese hoarder. I look at the whole situation and go "hey, I'm the capitalist guy here cleaning up the commons! Where are all the leftist voters in this clean up?".
UBI will allow them to just be "artists" and "rappers" and shit.
Yeah, I've hung out in the past with such people too. "Muh theatre productions" will save society" was the churtle of an American man who flew to Australia by faking a neck injury from a car pile up in America (insurance payout). He used to scam a lot. Only went to most arty cafe in the city. Then came the exception: He was elderly and slipped over on purpose in a Starbucks on his own "accidentally spilt milk". That helped buy tickets to leave Australia. His passed away. His younger girlfriend went on to become a lawyer and fight for immigrants at the US southern border! Man, I have many experiences.
Here are the Extinction Rebellion losers trying to get with the working class: https://youtu.be/tLMw7-yvk_4 These people loath the working class and always will.
Excellent - will share with stupid relatives who are right now crowing that I was wrong, Biden won, and we will all now have UBI. EXCELLENT! Also, am changing my address and not telling them... 🤪
@LiterallyKaiser - thank you for your input. You have confirmed what I have thought for a long time. Not only are these spoiled and unaware brats, they have DADDY ISSUES. Think about it... why do some people have such a kneejerk reaction to Donald Trump? Because DADDY'S HOME AND HE'S GONNA TAKE A WHIP TO YOU LAZY CUCKS!
I used to be Liberal as well. And you nailed it. But these people who fancy themselves "Artists" draw like the cartoons of NPC's -- ie - ZERO talent. And too lazy to even take a class to get better.
UBI is the ultimate form of slavery. It is justification for people getting a set "pay" that is not equal to the value of the labour they provide.
Communists think the way in which a UBI will work is that w/o a UBI they will earn $50k/yr from work then a $20k/yr UBI means they earn $70k/yr; however, that's not how a UBI will work. In reality, they'll now earn effectively $40k/yr after a UBI is implemented whether it's because of price changes, higher taxes or lower wages, etc...
A UBI is nothing more than justification for the slave masters to pay the slaves a stipend rather than what people truly deserve. People must earn what they deserve based on the work that they do. All tax + redistribute policies are inherently unjust.
Just ask Venezuela this concept of a Socialist Utopia.
They were doing great when oil was $140 a barrel. Forced farmers to abandon farming and get on the government dole. Then oil crashed. Now they are forced to eat zoo animals and rove around in gangs kidnapping each other for ransom.
The fundamental flaw in the UBI theory is the assumption that there will be fewer jobs. Not true. Every time there is innovation, even more jobs are created. Innovation and new technology opens new doors, it doesn't close them ever.
imagine a person with an IQ of 300, 12 feet tall, never sleeps, never gets sick, never asks for money, and whose memories can be instantly placed into another person's brain -- a person just like him.
now imagine 100 billion of them on the planet, all working nonstop at every conceivable job, even at the factories making those people.
of course, in practice that's not going to be how it is because it's not worth it to make such a general-purpose android, but functionally it will be equivalent. there will be no room for humans in such a world.
and once that world exists, you'd better hope there's a UBI system or else we will literally all be starved to death and nobody will care and history will never write about it.
I don't mean this in a condescending way, but read something like Basic Economics by Thomas Sowell. Innovation always creates more jobs in the long run.
right, in literally every prior instance you'd be correct. a steam shovel that does the work of 40 men doesn't replace 40 men, it just gives 40 men steamshovels so they can do 40x more work.
but in this case it is different and has zero historical precedent. this is because strong AI doesn't augment, it replaces. like i said, i wasn't exaggerating with my 300 IQ 12 ft robot example. that really is what it will be. and humans cannot compete with the combination of 1) better and 2) free.
if there are 10 robots per person, and each robot is better than the best person at literally everything, there is no room for "more jobs". there will just be more jobs for robots.
robots are already better than the best person at many things (chess, go, optimization in almost everything)
there's nothing magical about the human brain, and there will be a time, likely in our lifetimes, when there is literally nothing we're better than AI at.
pick any activity and then look at how humans and AI compare and you'll see that the gap is closing. i'd actually like to hear something you think humans will always be better at.
There are more things in heaven and Earth, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. There is something about human beings that will never be captured by a robot. If you're looking for an example, spiritual mentorship. Sacrificial love. Marriage counseling. Songwriting. Empathizing with another human being's failures and imperfections (many jobs require this to do well. Same with showing forgiveness.) Anything that involves a spiritual component is not something that AI will ever be able to do better. I can only assume you have a materialist worldview, which may be part of our difference. There will also always be jobs that on the margin it is not worth applying a robot to do. There will always be an infinite number of potential tasks to complete that could add value, and a finite number of robots.
It's a transfer of wealth from the productive to the unproductive. Per the IRS, 44% of the US populations pays zero income tax, not counting the millions of illegals in this country. I would be paying the government to give me my own money back at a fraction.
Canada had a couple small test runs of UBI. It went exactly as you’d expect. People spent the money on comfort crap and short term gratification. Not a single instance of intelligently using it to climb up and create more wealth. NOT ONE.
If you hold your hand out, full of seed, in a park, the wildlife will come and eat. Then more wildlife will come, and more, and more. Eventually the animals will come to you for their rations and they won’t go looking for food on their own. UBI is the exact same, and it’s just more communist domination.
UBI is commonly supported by some research that says giving people money instead of specific welfare services is drastically more effective than impeding market forces with a government welfare monolith. The specific research I’ve read was facilitated by USAID grants distributed in Africa as cash to participants in lieu of food or cooking oil. There is an another body of research around addiction and crime prevention that is used as well which says “crimes commonly associated with drug use are reduced through a recurring stipend” which is obvious and could be a bridge strategy (feds/municipal are already doing this with grants in many areas and it does work) but the main issue is still that we have massive drug imports and people who get pulled into hard drugs because most areas are culturally bankrupt and people need a cope to go on in our corporate kleptocracy.
Leftists have spun this entirely valid and sound research into “the government should just hand out money because the academic research proves that socialism works and it eliminates crime” which is not at all what the researchers concluded. They basically just found that if you hand money directly to people instead of structured welfare services the people spend the money better. I’d argue that is actually a refutation of socialism if anything.
What you’ll end up seeing is the big tech funded UBI programs in places like Tacoma being lauded as great successes and proofs for an expansion of the monolithic welfare systems instead of a reason that we shouldn’t have them in the first place (the structured welfare programs) which is what the research states. Even Yang was pitching UBI as a way to consolidate the social welfare system into a single expenditure for the federal government and when phrased in that way I actually support it. The amount of money we would save is huge and the amount of social and hard capital we would generate would be enormous. All government is dangerous and government expansion even more so. In a perfect world UBI would be a net positive, but this isn’t a perfect world and we’d end up with a system like our current federal student loans where it’s just another way for financial institutions to entrap individuals and centralize wealth.
What we really need to be doing is exactly what POTUS proposed with opportunity zones. Feds do not need to and should not be able to dictate granular expenditures for participants in welfare programs. They shouldn’t even be handing money to individuals 95% of the time. They should be funding the entrepreneur who is starting a hydroponics grow in an impoverished community to provide produce or the grocer who would be buying that produce and selling it locally. Centralization is a failing strategy for civilizations and we saw a microcosm of that take place with the Internet. Utopian dreams are never reality and the strategies that work in that utopian setting never work outside that context. That’s why markets are the best strategy with corrective government intervention functioning as an investment society is making in individuals.
The idea of UBI is to allow technology and corporate consolidation (economies of scale) to continue increasing production while allowing people to do low value service jobs but still get by.
The only way you could start talking about a viable UBI, and this is a big IF, is if you took all the money from all the current welfare systems. That includes welfare, wic, all the child programs that give out free stuff to single moms, meals on wheels type programs, etc, and combine all of those existing handouts into a single fund. If managed correctly the drop in overhead by giving everyone a check vs giving only specific people a check means a lower cost of management. But even then it doesn't guarantee enough funds to make it worthwhile to everyone. It would be a nice little extra check for those who work and useless for those who don't without another source of income.
If you try telling this to someone who believes in the welfare system then it won't work. How could you take money away from poor people that need it? The idea of fixing our current system of hand outs before you even attempt a concept like UBI falls on deaf ears.
One more thought to add to UBI. The precursor is a post scarcity society. There needs to be enough resources to go around for everyone and be maintainable through the future. We don't have that now. So at some point UBI would lead to a choke on available resources.
Nobody who thinka UBI is a good idea understands math. Giving everyone even a paltry sum to live on would cost trillions, without a tax base to support it.
IMHO This is one of the most important threads we've had outside of the election. This is RedPill material ... Requesting more input from people who lived under this system. We need this kind of ammo!
Absolutely perfectly captured. I've seen the results of what happens to countries that try to socialize everything. It just stagnates their economies terribly.
When machines and robot AI take over 75%+ of our jobs, then we can discuss UBI. Then again I suspect "artistic freetime" would be not our most pressing issue.
When do i get to start the "AI and Robots Deserve Rights" party? :D
IF every single other welfare/government subsidy/payment was removed, I would be happy to switch to $400 per month/person. No section 8, no food stamps, no medicaid, no disability, none of it.
We would see huge savings & it would encourage those who are not working to pick up extra work.
Personally I want zero safety net & allow our abundance of charity & church networks to help lift those in need up, but this is a good first step.
There are different ppl supporting UBI (or partial UBI) for different reasons .
I support it because I see the shrinking jobs market VS the growing population . I see the exporting of jobs to Chyna and India , as well as the loss of blue collar jobs (and the beginning of white collar jobs) to automation , software and computing . When the equation becomes "jobs < people" , then one cannot support the other . I know that the time may not yet be here for UBI , but I don't see the trajectory in the need for it changing naturally (outside of an actually serious pandemic , WWIII or the invention of a reliable interplanetary space travel) .
I wish it was different . But I've heard the arguments , and I have not been convinced . We really are the "victims" of our own success . In eliminating war , poverty / famine (mostly) and disease -- we've come to a point were in just 40 fucking years , we have doubled the planet's population (that's in my lifetime) , from the early 1970's to the early 2000's . You can't keep that up and find new and inventive ways to eliminate jobs . The math does not work .
I'd like to begin my reply by saying that i did not write any of what I said -- coming from the positions that you're thinking about . The gist of what I said was that it's impossible to keep growing in numbers while at the same time actively working toward reducing jobs or sending jobs overseas . That was all I said , and that was all i intended to say . Now to your stuff :
Why do you think the 'elite' will pay for 90% of the population to sit around smoking pot, playing video games and breeding more useless eaters rather than just exterminate them?
That's a good question . If we're talking about the "old elites" -- they still believe in their version of perverted capitalism ... , in other words , the Bill Gates and the Jeff Bezos's of the world will still want to sell you stuffs or buy your company , to become even more absurdly rich .
At the same time, the "new elite" -- that which will arise from the SJW's of today , will still dream of their Communist utopia ... or what they now refer to as "equity" .
And just like the Commies before them , once reality hits them in the face , they'll settle with the "equity" of everyone being equally poor (when in their youth they dreamed of everybody becoming equally rich) .
From my perspective (which at the moment is somewhat admittedly Blackpilled) , it looks like we're about to replay the 20th Century , with a new batch of "great thinkers" thinking that "free of god" they can (and will) achieve a superior morality through their superior technology .
They (the so called "progressive Left") think they have evolved beyond you .
And as always, pride comes before the fall ... , and sadly with the "great thinkers" of this Century (hi AOC!) , we're getting the Walmart version of the 20th Century .
Do you not understand that these people want the planet's population massively reduced? Do you think they'll suddenly become oh-so-nice and pay for people they consider useless to breed?
That would be a "yes and no" answer .
Yes, they want to reduce the number of ... oh let's just say white people , for arguments sake .
No , because they're in the conundrum of the majority of people on the globe not being white , and the majority of those who breed like rabbits not being white .
How they plan on solving that one ... , I'm not exactly sure yet . They're not looking to start a famine in Africa . They are looking to Africanize Europe and South Americanize North America . I can't see for sure beyond that .
They are evil to the very core. The fact that they're pushing for UBI should tell you all you need to know about whether it's a good idea.
Not necessarily evil , at least not the majority . The majority of Leftist -- or rather those who call themselves "progressive" are well intentioned fools who know little or nothing about either history or economics . From my perspective , they're very much misguided & blind to their own folly , prejudice and thoughts of their own supremacy . They don't know that they have reached the status of a cult / fanaticism , wherein it's their way and only their way because they have discovered "THE TRUTH" .
As to UBI , again , I don't support it because I think it's a great idea .
I see it as an eventuality when ... say "learn to code" will no longer be an option for 95% of the people because the computers will be doing all the coding themselves . They are already doing a decent chunk of de-bugging software .
Elon Musk's initial "partner in crime" , Peter Thiel (they invented Paypal together) already noted how out of whack computer development is with pretty much anything else that we're developing / discovering . I'm not sure we can fix all our problems on this rock . So we either get off it , or ... something will sooner or later go very badly for all of us .
I get what you’re saying. Just remember before welfare decimated the black family unit, black teen unemployment was the lowest.
The only social program that works and most effective benefit is a job.
I don't have a problem with limited taxes. IF -- and that's a BIG IF -- they were actually used to run the country. We need roads, we need interstate basic infrastructure, and we need to run the govt.
What I DON'T like is the way our "elected" (anyone questioning those wins now?) representatives misuse and misappropriate the moneys meant to do the above. You got a check for $1,200 for Covid Relief, which they owed us because they stole our livelihoods. THOSE cucks got a check for $43,000!!!! Cut off all money to every single representative until this whole thing is settled.
I agree, and there do need to be provisions for interstate connections or we'll have roads and rails and water and phone connections not quite matching up. And/or the poorer states will have trouble keeping up with the more populous states.
The problem isn't taxes, it's that the people who believe they are in charge misuse and misappropriate it like it's a giant bottomless piggy bank
these people think UBI will let them do artistic shit
If UBI / Communism is ever enacted, the "party" will then get to choose your occupation.
If "a job" is a "right" to these people, they won't much like the "jobs" that are given to them
You think the Soviets drank because they like alcohol? No, they fucking hated their lives and their jobs and used it like any other aloholic, to escape.
Yes. In Czechoslovakia under communist rule, having a job was mandatory. Not having a job was a crime. Most of the jobs sucked. And there was a constant shortage of some common and necessary items - toilet paper, sanitary pads, batteries... One shop assistant called the police just because I asked for AA batteries. No kidding. It was a provocation against the state because everybody knew that there are no AA batteries in the markets.
Thanks for this post.
Young people need to hear more from people that have lived under communism.
Sorry you went through it, hopefully better off now!
AA? Did you mean R6? Using American nomenclature would clearly made you sound like a provocateur.
LR6 for alkaline AA to be precise! (America pede, battery autist)
Alkaline batteries in the communist Czechoslovakia? No way, that would be a hard-currency import not available for sale to a regular citizen.
The discussed merchandise would have old-style zinc-carbon cells that were mass-manufactured either locally or in a friendly Comecon/Warsaw pact country, Thus R6, not LR6.
For the curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizes .
Next you will say they squat on their toes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-8gsWZqDBM
In the pie in the sky world of UBI, they proclaim that its the wealthy who will be taxed to pay for it, basically taking from the rich to raise up the poor.
But what they always fail to realize, the rich, ie wealthy corporations and individuals, never EVER give up their cut of the profit. If something comes along that would lower their cut of the profits, its transferred to someone or something else, always down, never up.
Example, if low level worker wages are raised, does the profit come from the owners or ceo's? No,never, it is transferred back down, either in higher prices for the consumer, or fewer jobs for the lower level workers, or a reduction in benefits or tightening of the budgets, but never from the profits.
In UBI, which comes from the government, that money is raised from the wealthy correct? see, the wealthy is not going to take that tax off the top, they will pass the cost of higher taxes from anywhere but the profits,
They will raise the cost of what they sell, cut back on jobs, etc. whatever they have to do to pay for it.
And the dumbass who thinks he is going to stay in his parents basement and just ride along on his UBI is going to find his money just don't go as far as he thought it would, not to mention the poor working stiff trying to provide for his family and actually pays taxes.
Yep, leftist voters never comprehend this. It’s the same delusional fantasy they have over “universal health care”.
The rich get rich off the backs of the poor. What do UBI idiots think wealth is? It's other people slaving away for you.
^^^THIS!!!^^^
The argument for UBI is that we need a counter to automation but there are two opposing viewpoints for how we combat it:
Bernie/AOC wants to propose a Federal Jobs Guarantee which is a gateway towards communism. Bernie wants everyone to receive a stable job and a living wage. AOC wants everyone to receive all the benefits you could ever imagine + a FAMILY sustaining wage. Both of their ideas are stupid and would effectively place the private sector under government control.
Andrew Yang wants a UBI, paid for by a VAT tax at half Europe's rate to give everyone $1000 a month. I have a few thoughts about this:
1). He mentioned excluding items from the VAT but without specifications, I'd be reluctant to embrace it.
2). He mentions the VAT tax but he has gone on record stating that his UBI would count as additional income
Source 3
Twitter thread, showing everyone being confused.
So basically, the problem isn't that you are pushed into a "Higher tax bracket", the problem is that you are getting "pushed" at all. This means that the UBI is subjected to a VAT Tax, Federal Income Tax and State Tax(Depending on where you live). This is a far cry from the $1000 proposal that Yang suggests.
Like, I support some form of a UBI but I wouldn't trust anyone to implement it without fucking everyone over in the process. Feel free to use my sources if you want to debate people about this. I am open minded but I don't like being lied to by politicians.
Added clarification to avoid confusion:
I support the concept of a UBI but the fact that Andrew Yang is blatantly lying about the fact that it counts as additional income should tell everyone what you need to know. He says that it's meant to liberate you from the Federal Government but yet you are forced to hand it back over through a VAT Tax and a Federal Income Tax. On top of those two taxes, you have to pay a State Income Tax(Depending on where you live) when it's added up to your total income.
Most people don't know this so I shared the sources that you guys can use.
Automation has been happening for generations. Jobs are still there, they're just easier and less monotonous. I guess it's possible that jobs could just disappear someday and only a tiny percentage of people are generating income and keeping it all, but as of now that's just a myth or science fiction.
I know, I made my post to explain how the Democrats are using the threat of automation to fuck everyone over just like covid/climate change
More clarification: Andrew Yang fucks you over through the UBI counting as additional income. He tells you that it is subjected to only a VAT tax and NEVER brings up the fact that it could push you up to a higher tax bracket, which means that it is effectively taxed. It's a huge contradiction and he is never questioned about it.
Same with Elon...in the world they envision most jobs will be autonomous and that could cause a problem... I dont have the answer but in their scifi world they have a point if it gets to that...but theres no definite proof we wont continue to create other means of employment
Yea automation is good an it's happening
but
They've said that for 60 years and every time they automate something more important and it fails, they blame human error, so then they put more people around to monitor the robots.
They'll pay two $60,000 engineers to babysit a multi-million dollar robot rather than two $40,000 laborers to just do the work.
And the products come out fucked either way.
My argument as to why the economy will never be fully automated is that as new jobs/industries come into existence, it will take time to develop technology to automate it. And before all those jobs are automated, new jobs/industries will pop up, and so on and so forth.
That's exactly it. The self driven will dry smash a bunch of jobs. But even then they think they will need a human for that last mile /unload cargo etc
absolutely not, no new federal taxes for things not explicitly written in the constitution.
States can do whatever they want within their own state.
any time "the government" collects anything from you, they need to pay bureaucrats to "manage" it.
The only acceptable answer is national Tariffs being used to offset individual tax liability, meaning those producing exportable goods have their tax liability offset by the tarriff income produced by those choosing to pay for imported (tarriffed) goods.
You can have your tax refund check as "UBI"
Yeah, I pretty much agree with you.
Bernie Sanders/AOC promise the world yet it's a complete government takeover of the private sector.
Andrew Yang promises a UBi that will liberate you yet you're still enslaved by the Federal/State Governments
As a matter of fact, for the first 100+ years of the USA's existence, most if not tall of federal revenue came from tariffs.
The premise that automation will replace jobs faster than we can replace them is assumed. It is not proven. Quite the opposite, evidence is showing that new industries are developing with every newly created automative technology.
Yeah, 100% Andrew Yang lied to everyone
We all know the vast majority will do precisely nothing. Play video games, binge Netflix, do drugs and get drunk. While society enables them.
I'm sure it will stop at $1200 and there will in no way be inflation
I would support UBI if and only if we eliminated ALL of the following: Welfare, social security SSDI for non retirees, food stamps, Section 8 housing, federal disability, mandatory paid leave, heating assistance, obama phones, WIC, SNAP, medicaid, and that old fashioned delicious government cheese! With the money saved from that, we could easily run UBI, and with less fraud.
Before waking the hell up I was a socialist, and hung out with a lot of these faggots. They are all losers; the kids who weren't part of a sports team or even the art club in high school. Lots of druggies, all with daddy/parental issues, and extreme feelings of inferiority/self-hatred and displaced anger.
Anyways these people all think UBI will allow them to just be "artists" and "rappers" and shit. Their thought process is a 9th grade level "if we give everyone free money then they won't have to work to stay afloat, and they can pursue creativity/art/whatever and our society will prosper because everyone will be free to make and buy art."
Of course there's the question about who will do the necessary, but unenviable, jobs like garbage collector, and their belief is that people will either volunteer to collect trash (ha!) or we can set up some freshmen college level communal cleanup team and we all have a chore list to do (ha!).
I am not even shitting you. Those are unironically the beliefs of 80% of them. The rest know that's totally unrealistic, but don't voice it because they secretly do wish to implement a Stalinist regime and just use the others as useful idiots.
it's also telling how they believe "garbage collector" which is usually a 4 day work-week 6a-3p shifts working with 2-3 people you are generally close with is a "unenviable" job.
But then they tell us all about how racist and misogynistic and stressful and shitty corporate is but those are "enviable" jobs
It really clears things up when you realize that these people were all the losers you met in high school. Not just artsyfartsy types, but anime lovers, autists listening to Red Army songs on the bus, that kind of shit. A lot of them are for UBI and whatnot because they think they'll save on monthly expenses if the government pays for everything (even though they'll just pay for it in taxes. They're very short term thinkers), and that leaves them more money for consumerist shit like Marvel movies, Funko Pops, wine, and exotic vacations.
So for anyone wondering why all these soycialists have the latest iPhones and also get laughably pissed when you post Star Wars spoilers; that's why.
Sound like a cool job to me. Watching the trash collectors riding on the back of the truck seemed pretty fun when I was growing up.
Some days after corporate work, brain gets so addled, I wish I became a trash collector. Also would be in better physical shape.
Currently I am living in complex with 7 other units in Australia. There are people mainly people who are not of European legacy culture living here. Between myself and the only other "white guy" living here, we did a massive clean up this year around the property due to a Chinese hoarder. I look at the whole situation and go "hey, I'm the capitalist guy here cleaning up the commons! Where are all the leftist voters in this clean up?".
Yeah, I've hung out in the past with such people too. "Muh theatre productions" will save society" was the churtle of an American man who flew to Australia by faking a neck injury from a car pile up in America (insurance payout). He used to scam a lot. Only went to most arty cafe in the city. Then came the exception: He was elderly and slipped over on purpose in a Starbucks on his own "accidentally spilt milk". That helped buy tickets to leave Australia. His passed away. His younger girlfriend went on to become a lawyer and fight for immigrants at the US southern border! Man, I have many experiences.
Here are the Extinction Rebellion losers trying to get with the working class: https://youtu.be/tLMw7-yvk_4 These people loath the working class and always will.
Yup! smh
Relevant Whitest Kids You Know skit
Excellent - will share with stupid relatives who are right now crowing that I was wrong, Biden won, and we will all now have UBI. EXCELLENT! Also, am changing my address and not telling them... 🤪
@LiterallyKaiser - thank you for your input. You have confirmed what I have thought for a long time. Not only are these spoiled and unaware brats, they have DADDY ISSUES. Think about it... why do some people have such a kneejerk reaction to Donald Trump? Because DADDY'S HOME AND HE'S GONNA TAKE A WHIP TO YOU LAZY CUCKS!
I used to be Liberal as well. And you nailed it. But these people who fancy themselves "Artists" draw like the cartoons of NPC's -- ie - ZERO talent. And too lazy to even take a class to get better.
UBI is the ultimate form of slavery. It is justification for people getting a set "pay" that is not equal to the value of the labour they provide.
Communists think the way in which a UBI will work is that w/o a UBI they will earn $50k/yr from work then a $20k/yr UBI means they earn $70k/yr; however, that's not how a UBI will work. In reality, they'll now earn effectively $40k/yr after a UBI is implemented whether it's because of price changes, higher taxes or lower wages, etc...
A UBI is nothing more than justification for the slave masters to pay the slaves a stipend rather than what people truly deserve. People must earn what they deserve based on the work that they do. All tax + redistribute policies are inherently unjust.
So are the people opting for UBI getting sterilized? Is that part of the deal?
Just ask Venezuela this concept of a Socialist Utopia.
They were doing great when oil was $140 a barrel. Forced farmers to abandon farming and get on the government dole. Then oil crashed. Now they are forced to eat zoo animals and rove around in gangs kidnapping each other for ransom.
This will be our future.
The only way UBI becomes any kind of feasible is if automation reaches a point where there are far less jobs that adults.
While it’s likely to happen eventually, we’re not even close to that point yet.
That will never happen. There will always be an infinite number of jobs for people to do.
Correct.
The fundamental flaw in the UBI theory is the assumption that there will be fewer jobs. Not true. Every time there is innovation, even more jobs are created. Innovation and new technology opens new doors, it doesn't close them ever.
hard disagree
imagine a person with an IQ of 300, 12 feet tall, never sleeps, never gets sick, never asks for money, and whose memories can be instantly placed into another person's brain -- a person just like him.
now imagine 100 billion of them on the planet, all working nonstop at every conceivable job, even at the factories making those people.
of course, in practice that's not going to be how it is because it's not worth it to make such a general-purpose android, but functionally it will be equivalent. there will be no room for humans in such a world.
and once that world exists, you'd better hope there's a UBI system or else we will literally all be starved to death and nobody will care and history will never write about it.
I don't mean this in a condescending way, but read something like Basic Economics by Thomas Sowell. Innovation always creates more jobs in the long run.
right, in literally every prior instance you'd be correct. a steam shovel that does the work of 40 men doesn't replace 40 men, it just gives 40 men steamshovels so they can do 40x more work.
but in this case it is different and has zero historical precedent. this is because strong AI doesn't augment, it replaces. like i said, i wasn't exaggerating with my 300 IQ 12 ft robot example. that really is what it will be. and humans cannot compete with the combination of 1) better and 2) free.
if there are 10 robots per person, and each robot is better than the best person at literally everything, there is no room for "more jobs". there will just be more jobs for robots.
Robots will never be free and they will never be better than the best person at literally everything.
robots are already better than the best person at many things (chess, go, optimization in almost everything)
there's nothing magical about the human brain, and there will be a time, likely in our lifetimes, when there is literally nothing we're better than AI at.
pick any activity and then look at how humans and AI compare and you'll see that the gap is closing. i'd actually like to hear something you think humans will always be better at.
There are more things in heaven and Earth, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. There is something about human beings that will never be captured by a robot. If you're looking for an example, spiritual mentorship. Sacrificial love. Marriage counseling. Songwriting. Empathizing with another human being's failures and imperfections (many jobs require this to do well. Same with showing forgiveness.) Anything that involves a spiritual component is not something that AI will ever be able to do better. I can only assume you have a materialist worldview, which may be part of our difference. There will also always be jobs that on the margin it is not worth applying a robot to do. There will always be an infinite number of potential tasks to complete that could add value, and a finite number of robots.
It's a transfer of wealth from the productive to the unproductive. Per the IRS, 44% of the US populations pays zero income tax, not counting the millions of illegals in this country. I would be paying the government to give me my own money back at a fraction.
"If you don't make stuff, there's not stuff." - Elon Musk
That's why he's the foremost genius of our time, quotes like that. Brilliant! Nobody else could've realized that!
So simple, yet still too complex for a Leftist's brain.
In my area of town the people who want UBI expect the migrants to do their work, and if you don't support migrants you're racist.
OMG thank you for this. I have tried to explain this to people a hundred times. This pic says it all.
Canada had a couple small test runs of UBI. It went exactly as you’d expect. People spent the money on comfort crap and short term gratification. Not a single instance of intelligently using it to climb up and create more wealth. NOT ONE.
If you hold your hand out, full of seed, in a park, the wildlife will come and eat. Then more wildlife will come, and more, and more. Eventually the animals will come to you for their rations and they won’t go looking for food on their own. UBI is the exact same, and it’s just more communist domination.
Don’t forget the trannies and all those doctors and lawyers with 4 wives and 20+ kids each.
UBI is commonly supported by some research that says giving people money instead of specific welfare services is drastically more effective than impeding market forces with a government welfare monolith. The specific research I’ve read was facilitated by USAID grants distributed in Africa as cash to participants in lieu of food or cooking oil. There is an another body of research around addiction and crime prevention that is used as well which says “crimes commonly associated with drug use are reduced through a recurring stipend” which is obvious and could be a bridge strategy (feds/municipal are already doing this with grants in many areas and it does work) but the main issue is still that we have massive drug imports and people who get pulled into hard drugs because most areas are culturally bankrupt and people need a cope to go on in our corporate kleptocracy.
Leftists have spun this entirely valid and sound research into “the government should just hand out money because the academic research proves that socialism works and it eliminates crime” which is not at all what the researchers concluded. They basically just found that if you hand money directly to people instead of structured welfare services the people spend the money better. I’d argue that is actually a refutation of socialism if anything.
What you’ll end up seeing is the big tech funded UBI programs in places like Tacoma being lauded as great successes and proofs for an expansion of the monolithic welfare systems instead of a reason that we shouldn’t have them in the first place (the structured welfare programs) which is what the research states. Even Yang was pitching UBI as a way to consolidate the social welfare system into a single expenditure for the federal government and when phrased in that way I actually support it. The amount of money we would save is huge and the amount of social and hard capital we would generate would be enormous. All government is dangerous and government expansion even more so. In a perfect world UBI would be a net positive, but this isn’t a perfect world and we’d end up with a system like our current federal student loans where it’s just another way for financial institutions to entrap individuals and centralize wealth.
What we really need to be doing is exactly what POTUS proposed with opportunity zones. Feds do not need to and should not be able to dictate granular expenditures for participants in welfare programs. They shouldn’t even be handing money to individuals 95% of the time. They should be funding the entrepreneur who is starting a hydroponics grow in an impoverished community to provide produce or the grocer who would be buying that produce and selling it locally. Centralization is a failing strategy for civilizations and we saw a microcosm of that take place with the Internet. Utopian dreams are never reality and the strategies that work in that utopian setting never work outside that context. That’s why markets are the best strategy with corrective government intervention functioning as an investment society is making in individuals.
The idea of UBI is to allow technology and corporate consolidation (economies of scale) to continue increasing production while allowing people to do low value service jobs but still get by.
PM'd you about the generator. Is it in good shape?
universal basic income just means we are all employees of the top corporations paying taxes
The only way you could start talking about a viable UBI, and this is a big IF, is if you took all the money from all the current welfare systems. That includes welfare, wic, all the child programs that give out free stuff to single moms, meals on wheels type programs, etc, and combine all of those existing handouts into a single fund. If managed correctly the drop in overhead by giving everyone a check vs giving only specific people a check means a lower cost of management. But even then it doesn't guarantee enough funds to make it worthwhile to everyone. It would be a nice little extra check for those who work and useless for those who don't without another source of income.
If you try telling this to someone who believes in the welfare system then it won't work. How could you take money away from poor people that need it? The idea of fixing our current system of hand outs before you even attempt a concept like UBI falls on deaf ears.
One more thought to add to UBI. The precursor is a post scarcity society. There needs to be enough resources to go around for everyone and be maintainable through the future. We don't have that now. So at some point UBI would lead to a choke on available resources.
Well, here's the thing about UBI. If everyone's getting it, you can bet it'll probably be useless...
Nobody who thinka UBI is a good idea understands math. Giving everyone even a paltry sum to live on would cost trillions, without a tax base to support it.
"Lisa, I wanna buy your electrical power generator."
IMHO This is one of the most important threads we've had outside of the election. This is RedPill material ... Requesting more input from people who lived under this system. We need this kind of ammo!
This is a great article -- https://thenewamerican.com/youll-own-nothing-un-backed-great-reset-is-feudalism/
And here is one from epoch times - (you need to subscribe, but it's no cost and they are worth it...) https://www.theepochtimes.com/the-2020-election-a-test-for-our-freedom_3592552.html
Absolutely perfectly captured. I've seen the results of what happens to countries that try to socialize everything. It just stagnates their economies terribly.
Good analogy but plug in the other countries as "imports".
lmao, I live in Northern California, and the faggot commies around here are so excited for UBI. It makes me sick to my stomach.
It's a way of saying that the government knows how to spend your money better than you do.
Just let people keep their money by cutting taxes. It's not a crazy concept.
When machines and robot AI take over 75%+ of our jobs, then we can discuss UBI. Then again I suspect "artistic freetime" would be not our most pressing issue.
When do i get to start the "AI and Robots Deserve Rights" party? :D
No such thing as free money.
Patent that shit.
Unpopular Opinion:
IF every single other welfare/government subsidy/payment was removed, I would be happy to switch to $400 per month/person. No section 8, no food stamps, no medicaid, no disability, none of it.
We would see huge savings & it would encourage those who are not working to pick up extra work.
Personally I want zero safety net & allow our abundance of charity & church networks to help lift those in need up, but this is a good first step.
There are different ppl supporting UBI (or partial UBI) for different reasons .
I support it because I see the shrinking jobs market VS the growing population . I see the exporting of jobs to Chyna and India , as well as the loss of blue collar jobs (and the beginning of white collar jobs) to automation , software and computing . When the equation becomes "jobs < people" , then one cannot support the other . I know that the time may not yet be here for UBI , but I don't see the trajectory in the need for it changing naturally (outside of an actually serious pandemic , WWIII or the invention of a reliable interplanetary space travel) .
I wish it was different . But I've heard the arguments , and I have not been convinced . We really are the "victims" of our own success . In eliminating war , poverty / famine (mostly) and disease -- we've come to a point were in just 40 fucking years , we have doubled the planet's population (that's in my lifetime) , from the early 1970's to the early 2000's . You can't keep that up and find new and inventive ways to eliminate jobs . The math does not work .
Hello,
I'd like to begin my reply by saying that i did not write any of what I said -- coming from the positions that you're thinking about . The gist of what I said was that it's impossible to keep growing in numbers while at the same time actively working toward reducing jobs or sending jobs overseas . That was all I said , and that was all i intended to say . Now to your stuff :
That's a good question . If we're talking about the "old elites" -- they still believe in their version of perverted capitalism ... , in other words , the Bill Gates and the Jeff Bezos's of the world will still want to sell you stuffs or buy your company , to become even more absurdly rich .
At the same time, the "new elite" -- that which will arise from the SJW's of today , will still dream of their Communist utopia ... or what they now refer to as "equity" .
And just like the Commies before them , once reality hits them in the face , they'll settle with the "equity" of everyone being equally poor (when in their youth they dreamed of everybody becoming equally rich) .
From my perspective (which at the moment is somewhat admittedly Blackpilled) , it looks like we're about to replay the 20th Century , with a new batch of "great thinkers" thinking that "free of god" they can (and will) achieve a superior morality through their superior technology . They (the so called "progressive Left") think they have evolved beyond you . And as always, pride comes before the fall ... , and sadly with the "great thinkers" of this Century (hi AOC!) , we're getting the Walmart version of the 20th Century .
That would be a "yes and no" answer .
Yes, they want to reduce the number of ... oh let's just say white people , for arguments sake .
No , because they're in the conundrum of the majority of people on the globe not being white , and the majority of those who breed like rabbits not being white .
How they plan on solving that one ... , I'm not exactly sure yet . They're not looking to start a famine in Africa . They are looking to Africanize Europe and South Americanize North America . I can't see for sure beyond that .
Not necessarily evil , at least not the majority . The majority of Leftist -- or rather those who call themselves "progressive" are well intentioned fools who know little or nothing about either history or economics . From my perspective , they're very much misguided & blind to their own folly , prejudice and thoughts of their own supremacy . They don't know that they have reached the status of a cult / fanaticism , wherein it's their way and only their way because they have discovered "THE TRUTH" .
As to UBI , again , I don't support it because I think it's a great idea .
I see it as an eventuality when ... say "learn to code" will no longer be an option for 95% of the people because the computers will be doing all the coding themselves . They are already doing a decent chunk of de-bugging software .
Elon Musk's initial "partner in crime" , Peter Thiel (they invented Paypal together) already noted how out of whack computer development is with pretty much anything else that we're developing / discovering . I'm not sure we can fix all our problems on this rock . So we either get off it , or ... something will sooner or later go very badly for all of us .
Thanks for writing ! ;)
It's a trap.
I get what you’re saying. Just remember before welfare decimated the black family unit, black teen unemployment was the lowest. The only social program that works and most effective benefit is a job.
I don't have a problem with limited taxes. IF -- and that's a BIG IF -- they were actually used to run the country. We need roads, we need interstate basic infrastructure, and we need to run the govt.
What I DON'T like is the way our "elected" (anyone questioning those wins now?) representatives misuse and misappropriate the moneys meant to do the above. You got a check for $1,200 for Covid Relief, which they owed us because they stole our livelihoods. THOSE cucks got a check for $43,000!!!! Cut off all money to every single representative until this whole thing is settled.
I agree, and there do need to be provisions for interstate connections or we'll have roads and rails and water and phone connections not quite matching up. And/or the poorer states will have trouble keeping up with the more populous states.
The problem isn't taxes, it's that the people who believe they are in charge misuse and misappropriate it like it's a giant bottomless piggy bank
You will have nothing and Like it!
if you move a magnet through that loop, you actually will generate electricity