I figure that if you are visible and carry a rifle, the chance you'll actually be pulling the trigger is very low. It's the guys hiding in the bushes that no one can see, or from the windows or rooftops, who will be doing all the killing if the fighting starts.
Spall are flakes of a material that are broken off a larger solid body and can be produced by a variety of mechanisms, including as a result of projectile impact, corrosion, weathering, cavitation, or excessive rolling pressure. Wikipedia
The key idea of spalling is that it can travel at incredible velocities. You know how people say don't hit two hammer-heads together? That's because they are both hardened steel, and there's a good chance that it will crack and send a tiny flake of steel travelling at extremely fast speeds. Totally lethal. It's why you always wear safety goggles before engaging in any form of work.
m855 is 62 grain ball 5.56 ammo. It's a copper jacketed lead projectile with a steel tip/penetrator, identifiable by the green tip (which is the steel penetrator). It's sometimes referred to as armor piercing, but it was not intended to be armor piercing. It was meant to be barrier penetrating, like thicker, multi-layer clothing, brick, drywall, etc. The construction and addition of the steel "penetrator" also affects ballistics because the steel can vary round to round, and they are not the most accurate round. m193 is generally preferred for higher accuracy and similiar penetration in bulk "military grade" ammo.
5.56 cartridges - and really any rifle ammo - is very high velocity and has a lot more energy to transfer on impact as compared to essentially every single handgun/pistol ammo., So again while it's not intended to be armor piercing, because of it's construction, size, and velocity, it's very good at penetrating lower levels of soft and hard body armor that are only rated for handgun ammo.
All lvl4 plates - steel or ceramic - can defeat m855 ball ammo, and that's good because at least until recently it was a very commonly available bulk ammo. Common special threat ceramic plates - the Hesco L210 comes to mind - can also defeat it, but are not rated for 7.62x51/.308. Those will stop a .308 round but likely the backface deformation means you'll have some broken ribs or worse.
The US military is now using m855a1 round, which is a copper jacketed steel core. Not steel tipped any longer, and not lead cored. It's more environmentally friendly, but it's also more accurate and penetrates well. This ammo is not widely available on the civilian market as of yet.
You are welcome. I know enough to know I barely know anything. Guns are a great hobby because there's always more to learn, and you can specialize in a single firearm and even then never know it all.
Like the US Krag-Jorgensen. I am convinced that it is not possible for a single person to know everything about them.
Not always because I reload some 398 hunting rounds with green tip but are plastic for hollow points. Green on those are likely armor piercing. There is a steel rod going down the middle of the bullet.
Flaccid paralysis is a term used in tactical shooting when a headshot is taken and the bullet enters the cranial cavity in the "T-box". T-box shots are normally made in a situation where the suspect is armed and holding a hostage, usually at gun or knife point. The T-zone is roughly a T-shaped area from the outside of one eye socket to the outside of other eye socket and extending down the bridge of the nose to the upper lip. This area forms the "T" from which it derives its name. The bullet strikes and severs the spinal column causing flaccid paralysis and eliminates the possibility of involuntary muscle spasms. The advantage of flaccid paralysis is the subject is rendered incapacitated instantaneously preventing involuntary muscle contraction that may pull the trigger or cause other movements that may injure or kill the hostage. This is a difficult shot even by the best marksmen.
This does not include the number of hits each is required to stop
I know lvl 4 is 1 hit of 30-06 AP, and at least one hit of each round specified by types 1-3, though typically will stop more rounds than that of the lesser calibers
lvl 3+ isn't a true NIJ standard (or wasn't last I checked), and drops 308 protection (of regular level 3) in favor of more protection vs intermediate calibers:
Futhermore, green tip is less like AP (black tip) and more like FMJ+ = better barrier penetration and capability against lvl 3 (afaik), but not technically AP
Please add to this / correct me in case any of this isn't right
Also, if you're interested in getting some armor, the cheapest (and by extension probably heaviest/least comfy) legitimate entries into these categories are probably
After that, the more you spend, the lighter and generally more comfy (via more/different curves to fit they body) they get
Grab a plate carrier from a reputable and preferably US made manufacturer (I can put a non-exhaustive list (here you go, stolen from reddit, but its generally a good sub) if someone wants) for ~150-250 at the entry - lower mid level, or you can source one used
FWIW, RMA 1155s + a decent plate carrier are about the same combined weight as an IOTV + plates and soft armor, so they're not insanely heavy, and any of the carriers I'd recommend are more comfy that the IOTV
also grab an mfak-like kit (probably with the bleeding control option) from somewhere like North American rescue, research how to use it, how to stage and use a tourniquet, etc
There are also lots of other things you can do, but I'm really going beyond the scope of one comment
There are plates which are better than lvl3 but also not lvl4 - but there is no NIJ classification for them as of yet. NIJ is supposed to re-do everything and it's been overdue for months now. That might be what that particular brand is calling lvl III+, and there are also "Special Threat" plates that aren't officially certified to stop m855/m855a1/.308 but still can do it based on real world testing.
Supposedly it's like $30k to have NIJ certify your stuff, so that's where this mixed bag of in-between stuff has happened.
Everything else is great info and thanks for typing it up. I have Hesco L210s in the back of the carrier, and Highcom Guardian 4sas7 multi-curve up front. I bought two of each and intend to set up two carriers for me and a friend if I happen to get in it with someone. I have a Mayflower APC carrier and probably will get one of the new T-rex Arms carriers. Those dudes are good dudes.
Still need to get some mag inserts for the carrier and on the belt, and a proper OWB holster for a duty pistol. I'm getting there but not done yet, hopefully can get it before it's needed (and hope it's never needed, frankly).
Yeah, I just wanted some graphic that also included the "3+" or "3 special threat" level (which, as far as I can tell, are basically the same and just branding between hesco, spartan, and whoever else, i'm not 100% sure on that)
good source on the sheet, too
I also saw your similar comment elsewhere in the thread, good info! There's a lot of confusion around ammo specs, armor specs, etc (admittedly even for me), so good to try to get the right info out there
Hopefully NIJ gets their new certification standards/system completed and the lvl III+/special threat category is acknowledged. I think lvl3 is okay but m855 is so common that it seems dumb to exclude it from specific testing. And having lvl3a not being rifle rated while lvl3 is just seems weird, too.
Everyone should get ceramic plates, though. The risks and weight of steel plates are not worth their lower cost.
This is what I have for rifle ammo, with a dollar bill for scale.
From left to money: 5,45x39, 55gr .223 rem steel cased, .223 rem brass cased, 7,62x39, 166gr .308 winchester, 7,76x54R, .30-06 150gr M2 ball, .30-06 black tip penetrator.
Level IIIa absolutely cannot defeat m855 and does not defeat any rifle calibers at all. It can even fail when pistol cartridges it can defeat as fired from a handgun are fired at higher velocities from PCC. Level IIIa is soft body armor still.
Level III can defeat some rifle calibers but is only specifically rated for up to 7.62x51 lead core. Depending on the construction materials of your plate, as all level III is hard body armor, it may defeat at least one round 5.56/7.62 with a steel core.
The only way to guarantee that is lvl IV body armor, however. There is no NIJ level III+ classification.
First a rifle round into a plate feels like a hit with a baseball bat, then B that third hit even if it doesn't penetrate is going to render them somewhat combat ineffective.
3+ drops 7.62x51 protection as well, as far as I know. Its a "smaller bullets, but more hits" armor than lvl 3 - better protection against common intermediate cartridges
Ceramic can still be defeated with enough shots.
Don’t forget there will be dudes with 338s and 50s pulling overwatch with boomers and their 308s wanting to get in on the fun.
I’m just tired of reading the shills comments.
I figure that if you are visible and carry a rifle, the chance you'll actually be pulling the trigger is very low. It's the guys hiding in the bushes that no one can see, or from the windows or rooftops, who will be doing all the killing if the fighting starts.
In the beginning we'll probably see assassinations, kidnappings, bombings, i.e. the usual resistance type stuff.
What happens with spalling ? Is that the steel becoming sharp and ripped from the bullet?
Spall are flakes of a material that are broken off a larger solid body and can be produced by a variety of mechanisms, including as a result of projectile impact, corrosion, weathering, cavitation, or excessive rolling pressure. Wikipedia
The key idea of spalling is that it can travel at incredible velocities. You know how people say don't hit two hammer-heads together? That's because they are both hardened steel, and there's a good chance that it will crack and send a tiny flake of steel travelling at extremely fast speeds. Totally lethal. It's why you always wear safety goggles before engaging in any form of work.
Spalling means spreading
What's the green tip mean? (Sorry, I'm somewhat new to owning guns.)
m855 is 62 grain ball 5.56 ammo. It's a copper jacketed lead projectile with a steel tip/penetrator, identifiable by the green tip (which is the steel penetrator). It's sometimes referred to as armor piercing, but it was not intended to be armor piercing. It was meant to be barrier penetrating, like thicker, multi-layer clothing, brick, drywall, etc. The construction and addition of the steel "penetrator" also affects ballistics because the steel can vary round to round, and they are not the most accurate round. m193 is generally preferred for higher accuracy and similiar penetration in bulk "military grade" ammo.
5.56 cartridges - and really any rifle ammo - is very high velocity and has a lot more energy to transfer on impact as compared to essentially every single handgun/pistol ammo., So again while it's not intended to be armor piercing, because of it's construction, size, and velocity, it's very good at penetrating lower levels of soft and hard body armor that are only rated for handgun ammo.
All lvl4 plates - steel or ceramic - can defeat m855 ball ammo, and that's good because at least until recently it was a very commonly available bulk ammo. Common special threat ceramic plates - the Hesco L210 comes to mind - can also defeat it, but are not rated for 7.62x51/.308. Those will stop a .308 round but likely the backface deformation means you'll have some broken ribs or worse.
The US military is now using m855a1 round, which is a copper jacketed steel core. Not steel tipped any longer, and not lead cored. It's more environmentally friendly, but it's also more accurate and penetrates well. This ammo is not widely available on the civilian market as of yet.
Wow. Thanks for the info dump. I have a lot to learn.
You are welcome. I know enough to know I barely know anything. Guns are a great hobby because there's always more to learn, and you can specialize in a single firearm and even then never know it all.
Like the US Krag-Jorgensen. I am convinced that it is not possible for a single person to know everything about them.
I got a book on long range target shooting and I tell you, my BS in Physics was easier than what those guys do!
Not always because I reload some 398 hunting rounds with green tip but are plastic for hollow points. Green on those are likely armor piercing. There is a steel rod going down the middle of the bullet.
specifically not AP, those are black tip. these are meant for better penetration through various forms of barrier
Put the lead where the metal ain't---Nice flock of Greenie Meanies
Nice. I mix a little red in with the green, for Christmas. Plus hopefully to catch their patchouli oil on fire.
What's red tips?
Noice!
Yes, not true incendiaries, but at close enough range they will set shit on fire. Like dreadlocks and patchouli oil
What’s a T-Box?
source
Thank you!
I’m a lady.
I’m not retarded, just a lady.
Kidding. Thanks! 😉
Glad you pedes are on my side :)
My green tips will put a hole in quarter inch steel. Too bad I lost my guns in a boating accident.
for all the misinfo, here's a quick image with some graphics and levels (incl lvl 3 special threat/+)
https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-4iwpyceis0/product_images/uploaded_images/body-armor-protection-levels-web.jpg
This does not include the number of hits each is required to stop
more info from our favorite source lol:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_body_armor_performance_standards#NIJ_armor_standard_(United_States)
Futhermore, green tip is less like AP (black tip) and more like FMJ+ = better barrier penetration and capability against lvl 3 (afaik), but not technically AP
Please add to this / correct me in case any of this isn't right
Also, if you're interested in getting some armor, the cheapest (and by extension probably heaviest/least comfy) legitimate entries into these categories are probably
After that, the more you spend, the lighter and generally more comfy (via more/different curves to fit they body) they get
Grab a plate carrier from a reputable and preferably US made manufacturer (I can put a non-exhaustive list (here you go, stolen from reddit, but its generally a good sub) if someone wants) for ~150-250 at the entry - lower mid level, or you can source one used
FWIW, RMA 1155s + a decent plate carrier are about the same combined weight as an IOTV + plates and soft armor, so they're not insanely heavy, and any of the carriers I'd recommend are more comfy that the IOTV
also grab an mfak-like kit (probably with the bleeding control option) from somewhere like North American rescue, research how to use it, how to stage and use a tourniquet, etc
There are also lots of other things you can do, but I'm really going beyond the scope of one comment
That first link is a little wonky, because the NIJ doesn't have a level III+ classification, as you also correctly noted. Here's a handy 1 page sheet based on NIJ standards.
There are plates which are better than lvl3 but also not lvl4 - but there is no NIJ classification for them as of yet. NIJ is supposed to re-do everything and it's been overdue for months now. That might be what that particular brand is calling lvl III+, and there are also "Special Threat" plates that aren't officially certified to stop m855/m855a1/.308 but still can do it based on real world testing.
Supposedly it's like $30k to have NIJ certify your stuff, so that's where this mixed bag of in-between stuff has happened.
Everything else is great info and thanks for typing it up. I have Hesco L210s in the back of the carrier, and Highcom Guardian 4sas7 multi-curve up front. I bought two of each and intend to set up two carriers for me and a friend if I happen to get in it with someone. I have a Mayflower APC carrier and probably will get one of the new T-rex Arms carriers. Those dudes are good dudes.
Still need to get some mag inserts for the carrier and on the belt, and a proper OWB holster for a duty pistol. I'm getting there but not done yet, hopefully can get it before it's needed (and hope it's never needed, frankly).
Yeah, I just wanted some graphic that also included the "3+" or "3 special threat" level (which, as far as I can tell, are basically the same and just branding between hesco, spartan, and whoever else, i'm not 100% sure on that)
good source on the sheet, too
I also saw your similar comment elsewhere in the thread, good info! There's a lot of confusion around ammo specs, armor specs, etc (admittedly even for me), so good to try to get the right info out there
Hopefully NIJ gets their new certification standards/system completed and the lvl III+/special threat category is acknowledged. I think lvl3 is okay but m855 is so common that it seems dumb to exclude it from specific testing. And having lvl3a not being rifle rated while lvl3 is just seems weird, too.
Everyone should get ceramic plates, though. The risks and weight of steel plates are not worth their lower cost.
I expect many will try to fab up and hinge 1/4" carbon steel systems. Mad Max metal shop level shyt.
Sweet. 30.06 AP rounds?
They look fuckin yuge to be 5.56. maybe it's just the way the pic is. Looks like a .308 or 30.06 round.
Those are black tipped.
These pictured here are m855, which is 62 grain 5.56.
Wtf! Either I'm drunk or those things are wayyyy bigger than my 5.56 rounds!
Edit: just checked mine. 55 grain steel casing FMJ. They don't look as good as these. Feelsbadman...
Edited2x: I mean...I have no rounds or firearms. Those Racist weapons! Disregard the above statement...you read NOTHING.
https://i.imgur.com/jwhdmHE.jpg
This is what I have for rifle ammo, with a dollar bill for scale.
From left to money: 5,45x39, 55gr .223 rem steel cased, .223 rem brass cased, 7,62x39, 166gr .308 winchester, 7,76x54R, .30-06 150gr M2 ball, .30-06 black tip penetrator.
Those are some purty rounds my friend. May your aim stay true and your enemies never see it coming.
This is such a POG ass post lol
let me tell you about my 45 and its knockdown power lol
I'm jealous. 600rds. I can't even find 50rds without breaking the bank..some of these assholes selling 5.56/.223 at $2/rd
Also, my plates are rated for 7.62AP
All I carry is M1855 baby
This is the Way.
Of the gun.
I'm on the OP's team :)
Most the Larpers I've seen have airsoft level gear on
I spy something green!
🍀🐸
Is that 5.56? Level III+ should be enough to stop that I believe
Level IIIa absolutely cannot defeat m855 and does not defeat any rifle calibers at all. It can even fail when pistol cartridges it can defeat as fired from a handgun are fired at higher velocities from PCC. Level IIIa is soft body armor still.
Level III can defeat some rifle calibers but is only specifically rated for up to 7.62x51 lead core. Depending on the construction materials of your plate, as all level III is hard body armor, it may defeat at least one round 5.56/7.62 with a steel core.
The only way to guarantee that is lvl IV body armor, however. There is no NIJ level III+ classification.
You can read more about it with this helpful PDF from NIJ: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/nlectc/250144.pdf
First a rifle round into a plate feels like a hit with a baseball bat, then B that third hit even if it doesn't penetrate is going to render them somewhat combat ineffective.
Headshot.
3+ drops 7.62x51 protection as well, as far as I know. Its a "smaller bullets, but more hits" armor than lvl 3 - better protection against common intermediate cartridges
Its green tip. Armor penatrating