Messianic Judaism is simply Christianity... but for proud and stubborn Jews who don't want to let go of the old.
Rome never forced it to adapt into something pagan at all. The Roman Catholic Church of today has veered off-track by miles, but under Constantine and after the Council of Niceaea, the Church was very much its own, completely new religion.
The very concept of a graft implies that the old stock is now corrupt, and good for nothing. Christians have been grafted into the vine (Jesus), everything else is dead wood - and is to be burned.
I'm sorry, I know Christianity and Catholicism are well-established "as a new religion" and it's hard to see outside of it all, but none of what you are trying to tell me is actually backed up by the Bible as a whole. There is nothing at all in the account of Pentecost saying "throw off all of the ways of God". Paul says a lot of things, many of which are nice, but Peter warns in his second epistle, against following those "who twist his words to their own destruction." God would not send a single man other than His Son to change His whole plan for us. And even Jesus did not alter it much, He adhered to His Father's laws, and told others to do the same. The Bible should not contradict itself, and we must give Jesus primacy over any other humans in it. Go back and read the gospels, asking God to give you an open heart. If you had only Jesus's word to go by, and not the epistles, what do they honestly say? What would you truly believe?
I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but it breaks my heart to hear it said that the old -- God's divine Order -- was to be burned, when Jesus himself in Matt 5:17-20 says this:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
The Apostles were men of Israel from birth and by ingrained culture, and there is mention of them still attending the temple and telling new converts that Moses was taught in synagogues every Sabbath (for them to learn the rest of God's ways). There is no mention of massive change in their religious habits. If you are to believe this did happen, if God did intend this, we should have proof of this drastic shift from God's ways, in Jesus's words and actions. Not "no proof they continued" as proof they stopped. And if the Apostles or any man had rejected the old laws, without Jesus telling them to.... How would they not be in the wrong?
Yes, Israel as a country was overthrown and scattered because men had corrupted it so much that God could not stand the sight of it anymore. There is currently no temple, so it is true that the laws involving that building simply cannot be followed for now. But God has promised that those sacrifices will take place again at a new temple in His future kingdom (apart from the sacrifice of the lamb whose role is now eternally fulfilled by Jesus), quite literally because the act pleases Him. The laws aren't dead, and you say as much, but ask yourself how they are then alive if we don't follow them as Jesus commanded us to.
One last point: your analogy of how a graft works is wrong, and I really hate to say it but nonsensical. A graft in the literal sense is a new branch added to an existing tree. If you burn the existing tree, won't the added branch die? It doesn't have its own roots, its own life separate from the rest. A gardener would never bother to graft onto a diseased plant, because the new branch would fail to thrive too. Christianity is not meant to be a stand-alone religion, separated from the Torah. Jesus uses this analogy for a reason, as He always does in His teachings. And there is no way He wouldn't have told us clearly Himself, if we were meant to discard everything that came before Him.
The Bible-sourced truth is, He preached the exact opposite, told us to follow His Father's commandments, then inscribed those "old laws" directly into our hearts, gave us the very spirit of God as our guide, and told us to cling to His ways.
"God has promised that those sacrifices will take place again at a new temple in His future kingdom"
Wrong. There is no such promise ever given about this disgusting and unnecessary act.
Animal sacrifice passed away with the Full, Final, and Forever sacrifice of Christ. There will be NO animal sacrifice pleasing to God - ever again. All Christians need to do now is offer the sacrifice of praise.
The Jews, however, will have their 3rd Temple, and fill it with disgusting animal sacrifice, as well as countless other abominations. And it is in that filthy Temple of Sin where Satan will make his throne. Just like Satan is enthroned within modern day Judaism.
Torah Judaism is the dead part of the plant. God always works through a remnant of faithful believers. There's a reason that Jesus cursed the Fig Tree (which is a symbol of Israel). Since that curse - no prophet, priest, or king has come out of Israel. The Jewish stock has been disinherited due to centuries of repeated sin. The Jews have even cursed themselves by saying at Jesus's trial "His blood be upon us and upon our children". And since they continue to blaspheme and curse Christ to this day - they will forever remain cursed.
There is no reason for any modern born-again believer in Christ to follow any Toraic Judaism. The New Covenant has washed away the Old.
You seem terribly confused, and are clinging to a past which serve no purpose other than to show God's mercy in establishing a New Covenant to override and wash away the old.
We disagree very strongly on pretty much all points of Theology, so I see no reason to continue this discussion further.
I strongly recommend you view the wonderful Documentary called "Marching to Zion". It's an eye-opener for any Christian who has allowed themselves to be seduced by the Synagogue of Satan.
And you have little idea of just how much I understand how Judaism was perverted by Satan over the millenia, turned into an abomination but those who say they are Jews but are not, who are the Synagogue of Satan. I am not naive.
Messianic Judaism is simply Christianity... but for proud and stubborn Jews who don't want to let go of the old.
Rome never forced it to adapt into something pagan at all. The Roman Catholic Church of today has veered off-track by miles, but under Constantine and after the Council of Niceaea, the Church was very much its own, completely new religion.
The very concept of a graft implies that the old stock is now corrupt, and good for nothing. Christians have been grafted into the vine (Jesus), everything else is dead wood - and is to be burned.
I'm sorry, I know Christianity and Catholicism are well-established "as a new religion" and it's hard to see outside of it all, but none of what you are trying to tell me is actually backed up by the Bible as a whole. There is nothing at all in the account of Pentecost saying "throw off all of the ways of God". Paul says a lot of things, many of which are nice, but Peter warns in his second epistle, against following those "who twist his words to their own destruction." God would not send a single man other than His Son to change His whole plan for us. And even Jesus did not alter it much, He adhered to His Father's laws, and told others to do the same. The Bible should not contradict itself, and we must give Jesus primacy over any other humans in it. Go back and read the gospels, asking God to give you an open heart. If you had only Jesus's word to go by, and not the epistles, what do they honestly say? What would you truly believe?
I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but it breaks my heart to hear it said that the old -- God's divine Order -- was to be burned, when Jesus himself in Matt 5:17-20 says this:
The Apostles were men of Israel from birth and by ingrained culture, and there is mention of them still attending the temple and telling new converts that Moses was taught in synagogues every Sabbath (for them to learn the rest of God's ways). There is no mention of massive change in their religious habits. If you are to believe this did happen, if God did intend this, we should have proof of this drastic shift from God's ways, in Jesus's words and actions. Not "no proof they continued" as proof they stopped. And if the Apostles or any man had rejected the old laws, without Jesus telling them to.... How would they not be in the wrong?
Yes, Israel as a country was overthrown and scattered because men had corrupted it so much that God could not stand the sight of it anymore. There is currently no temple, so it is true that the laws involving that building simply cannot be followed for now. But God has promised that those sacrifices will take place again at a new temple in His future kingdom (apart from the sacrifice of the lamb whose role is now eternally fulfilled by Jesus), quite literally because the act pleases Him. The laws aren't dead, and you say as much, but ask yourself how they are then alive if we don't follow them as Jesus commanded us to.
One last point: your analogy of how a graft works is wrong, and I really hate to say it but nonsensical. A graft in the literal sense is a new branch added to an existing tree. If you burn the existing tree, won't the added branch die? It doesn't have its own roots, its own life separate from the rest. A gardener would never bother to graft onto a diseased plant, because the new branch would fail to thrive too. Christianity is not meant to be a stand-alone religion, separated from the Torah. Jesus uses this analogy for a reason, as He always does in His teachings. And there is no way He wouldn't have told us clearly Himself, if we were meant to discard everything that came before Him.
The Bible-sourced truth is, He preached the exact opposite, told us to follow His Father's commandments, then inscribed those "old laws" directly into our hearts, gave us the very spirit of God as our guide, and told us to cling to His ways.
"God has promised that those sacrifices will take place again at a new temple in His future kingdom"
Wrong. There is no such promise ever given about this disgusting and unnecessary act.
Animal sacrifice passed away with the Full, Final, and Forever sacrifice of Christ. There will be NO animal sacrifice pleasing to God - ever again. All Christians need to do now is offer the sacrifice of praise.
The Jews, however, will have their 3rd Temple, and fill it with disgusting animal sacrifice, as well as countless other abominations. And it is in that filthy Temple of Sin where Satan will make his throne. Just like Satan is enthroned within modern day Judaism.
Torah Judaism is the dead part of the plant. God always works through a remnant of faithful believers. There's a reason that Jesus cursed the Fig Tree (which is a symbol of Israel). Since that curse - no prophet, priest, or king has come out of Israel. The Jewish stock has been disinherited due to centuries of repeated sin. The Jews have even cursed themselves by saying at Jesus's trial "His blood be upon us and upon our children". And since they continue to blaspheme and curse Christ to this day - they will forever remain cursed.
There is no reason for any modern born-again believer in Christ to follow any Toraic Judaism. The New Covenant has washed away the Old.
You seem terribly confused, and are clinging to a past which serve no purpose other than to show God's mercy in establishing a New Covenant to override and wash away the old.
We disagree very strongly on pretty much all points of Theology, so I see no reason to continue this discussion further.
I strongly recommend you view the wonderful Documentary called "Marching to Zion". It's an eye-opener for any Christian who has allowed themselves to be seduced by the Synagogue of Satan.
And you have little idea of just how much I understand how Judaism was perverted by Satan over the millenia, turned into an abomination but those who say they are Jews but are not, who are the Synagogue of Satan. I am not naive.