And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” — John 6:65
Millions would have this instead say, "No one can come to Christ unless they accept Him of their own free will."
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. — John 1:12-13
Millions of Americans who believe the will of man has anything to do with conversion would be shocked to read this verse - that is, if they were honest.
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. — Romans 9:15-18
So then it does not depend on the man who wills.
Repeat after me guys.
So then it does not depend on man's will, free or otherwise.
One more time.
SO THEN IT DOES NOT DEPEND ON THE MAN WHO WILLS ... BUT ON GOD AND HIS MERCY.
No one has a free will choice to accept Jesus. Not a single person. Only those God has chosen will believe, God will grant them faith to do so. He loves them. Jesus died for them. The rest are hated by God and devoted to destruction.
Perfect, this means no one is responsible for what they do also... Nah, this is Deceiver level Bullshit.
Everyone is still responsible for their choices and actions, since they are still their choices and actions.
Except the coming to Jesus choice. I think you are under the sway of the Deceiver. Perhaps you need to set aside your desire for punishment and take some time to pray. Christ is the Redeemer, and all can come home to him, if they choose to do so with an honest heart.
My argument is that if they aren't among God's chosen they will never come to Christ. The Father will never grant it. They will continue ignoring and rejecting until the day they die. That is exactly what John 6:65 is saying.
I think you are using scripture to justify pre-judgment on people. I think you just want to see people you disagree with hurt. I think you want to throw the first stone, or entice others to throw the first stone. Lastly, I think you are deaf to the Holy Spirit, and need to take a time out to pray.
You have a lot of thoughts, none of them explain away the words of the verses I posted to establish my argument.
Read the rest of John 6. You are ignoring the context, and the lesson. See John 6:63-4 for some help on how far out your use of John 6:65 is from the lesson from Jesus is. Now, take the time out, you need it.
No, what's going on is you're ignoring v.65. It's clear as day.
Listen, many churches have for years been ignoring the very point you are making...and of course, your position is scriptural. The entire issue of "God's chosen" has been controversial since the early days of the church...BUT it is made very clear in the Bible, as in, for example, Matthew 24: 24; Mark 13: 22 and l Peter 1: 2. Jesus Himself said, You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, John 15: 16. False teaching has always been with us...over 1/2 of the new Testament warns of false Teachers. Good for you for introducing this topic! God bless you.
Tbh, I struggle with this concept. In essence, it is a theological discussion that has probably splintered churches and has been argued about for hundreds of years. With that said, I find the best way to God and Yeshua/Jesus Christ is through surrender to a Will that is greater than my own.
Positive, I believe you are absolutely correct. But Listen's point was that God was indispensable in you coming to this realization. Jesus v clearly teaches, NO man cometh unto me unless the Father first draws hm.
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.” Hebrews 2:9 KJV
“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:” Matthew 7:7 KJV
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.” Revelation 3:20 KJV
“And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.” Jeremiah 29:13 KJV
This is just some verses disproving the heresy that Jesus only died for the people God wants.
Jesus died for all men, He desires all men to be saved. God does not want a si bf le person to go to Hell; but many will choose to
Let's go over all of these verses one by one.
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.” Hebrews 2:9 KJV
This is referring to all men, as in not just Jews from one nation but both Jew and Gentile from every nation. The elect are among all tribes, tongues and nations.
And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. — Revelation 5:9
“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:” Matthew 7:7 KJV
No one will ask, seek or knock of their own free will. Its based on God's permission.
“I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me. I said, ‘Here am I, here am I,’ To a nation which did not call on My name. — Isaiah 65:1
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.” Revelation 3:20 KJV
Only His chosen people will be given ears to hear.
The hearing ear and the seeing eye, The Lord has made both of them. — Proverbs 20:12
To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. — John 10:3
“And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.” Jeremiah 29:13 KJV
Again seeking the Lord is based on God's permission.
Gosh! I had no idea that an all loving God decided to make a race of mindless robots to spend eternity with him in Heaven....but only the "chosen" ones that he programmed to go to Heaven. Very inciteful indeed.
What does all loving mean to you? God is love, but at the same time He hates evil. If I love Jews, I'm going to hate the holocaust. If I love justice, I'm going to hate the fact someone spends 20 years in jail for littering. Nobody is a mindless robot, instead we are lumps of clay.
You are ascribing the work of Satan who hinders people from believing to our righteous God. Blasphemy! Believe the gospel, Christ died for your sins and resurrected, and God will save anyone.
Mark 4:15 KJV [15] And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
God’s will is for all men to be saved and come to know the truth.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 KJV [3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
All men is not referring to all men, it's referring to all men.
People stumble over "all men" the same way they do with "the world" because people assume it means everyone. It doesn't. I can prove it to you.
Yes, I’m familiar with the Calvinist argument that makes the verse mean “not all men” when it says all men. I don’t buy it, and the rest of scripture doesn’t either.
2 Peter 3:9 KJV [9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Timothy 2:6 KJ [6] Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
God is not willing that any should perish and Christ gave himself for all!
The gospel of Christ is the power of salvation to everyone that believes.
Believe that Christ died for your sins and resurrected and you will be saved. Praise God for Jesus Christ!
Here is another example for you.
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. — John 6:44
Those whom the Father draws will be raised up. They will come to Christ.
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” — John 12:32
This greek word draw only appears 8 times in the NT, and it's only used twice in this way. These are the two places it's used like this. In order for any to come to Christ, they must meet a condition that is outside of their ability to meet. In other words, they are at the mercy of the Father. They must be drawn before they are able to come. Once they are drawn, they will come. It's not conditioned on man's will, it's conditioned on God's choice. God chooses who is drawn and who isn't. Those drawn will come to Christ.
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” — John 12:32
This same word is used by Jesus in the same way. If all men equals every man without exception, then everyone without exception will come to Christ. Nobody would go to hell.
But again that isn't what all men means here.
It's referring to all kinds of men, from every tribe tongue and nation, not just Jews, but Gentiles. All of the elect.
Not agreeing with your point. Jesus does draw all men to him by being lifted up (his resurrection).
So all men can come to him bc all men are drawn by the gospel of Christ. Some choose to reject it and reject God. They need to put their faith in the Saviour, Christ Jesus our Lord who died for their sins and resurrected.
What does "draw" mean?
This would explain it and I agree with it.
https://soteriology101.com/2017/08/13/john-644/
You will need to slow your roll, it's not that simple. People who throw caution to the wind without treading lightly end up in these types of spots. I can prove to you that "all men" should never be assumed to mean every man whoever lived.
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. — Romans 5:18
If through Jesus' work on the cross there resulted justification of life to every man whoever lived, then every man whoever lived would be justified and have eternal life. Nobody would go to hell. Since through His work there resulted justification of life to them.
You need to learn to let the Bible define its own words and phrases, or you will end up in huge trouble.
Yes, the free gift came upon all men. We can believe the gospel of Christ or reject it. Do you have to accept a free gift in life or can you reject it? How about I mail you a free iPad. Do you have to accept it or can you throw it in the trash? Same concept. The free gift of Christ dying for our sins is sent to everyone from God, but not every one believes it.
Romans 5:16,18 KJV [16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. [18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
All men does not mean everyone in v.18, otherwise everyone would be justified and have eternal life.
They don’t deserve salvation that’s why. Excommunicated from salvation. Unable to believe. Can’t repent. Not good
No one deserves salvation!