The fact that you insist on "proof texting" as opposed to relying on the recieved tradition is a good argument that you not only have free will but are abusing the privilege.
May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,
“That You may be justified in Your words,
And prevail when You are judged.”
— Romans 3:4
His words on the topic are all that matter, the opinions and philosophies of men don't deserve the trust of anyone.
Here's the problem that is obvious to everyone else: It's not "his words" it's "your filter".
I never met him but in my youth I knew people who knew David Koresh. You sound a lot like him. Normal people in real religions have some buffer between what the religion teaches them and what they imagine to be true. It's keeps them on an even keel and prevents them from going on the internet and proclaiming that they have the one true inside dope and everyone else going to hell.
This is why there are no Methodist suicide bombers or Lutheran terrorist cells.
Now, Christians DO believe in a concept called the "scandal of particularity" which holds the Jesus is the only way to be saved. But in Christianity, this is an occasion for great humility and a desire to love one's neighbor not an excuse to get rowdy on the internet.
Let's go very, very, slowly....
I don't actually disagree with you. At least not in the most technical sense.
Your methodology for getting there is dangerous.
Starting this fight here is an embarrassment.
Those are my concerns.
If a lump of clay had the ability to shape itself then we could say free will exists, but clay doesn't budge, unless it is in the hands of the potter. Have you never read:
There is no one who calls on Your name,
Who arouses himself to take hold of You;
For You have hidden Your face from us
And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities.
But now, O Lord, You are our Father,
We are the clay, and You our potter;
And all of us are the work of Your hand.
— Isaiah 64:7-8
All of us are at the mercy of God. My being chosen wasn't based on anything in me, anything good or bad I've done, or based anything something superior. He had mercy on me because He had mercy on me. That's the reason. God will in the end receive all of the glory because He is God.
No God does not wish or purpose to save everybody. He does not love everyone. In fact He hates certain people. He has prepared them for destruction and they will all die in their sins, for they have all sinned against Him and it is what they deserve.
Many are called, few are chosen. If repentance is based on free will then why do we find verses that read like this?
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
— 2 Timothy 2:25
If man had free will we'd be able to grant repentance to ourselves. But as it is, God is the one who grants it. All are at the mercy of God to grant it to them.
Predestination is also true. There are verses for both. Personally, I think it has to do with God being outside of time and our inability to understand it. Deuteronomy 29:29
It is implied. More than implied, it is foundational. Any advice or warning or command is predicated on there being free will. In a sense, free-will is what you 'achieve' with faith. Instead of being purely determined by events and chemistry and physics and psychology you are influenced against the expected mechanistic outcome, to select something based only on "will", free from worldly interference.
Free will and faith are related in surprising ways, or can be.
If you're not claiming to be a believer then you can make a small philosophical argument. Just keep it somewhat short and we can have a back and forth. This post is meant to challenge the people who claim to accept Jesus of their own free will.
So if we have no free will, accepting or not accepting Jesus makes no difference. Choosing to accept God into your heart is the litmus test for being redeemed.
The fall was planned by God according to the Bible. I don't see any verses from you teaching free will. The point is to magnify the sovereignty of God. He is in full active control every moment throughout all the universe and heaven.
“I know that You can do all things,
And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.
— Job 42:2
this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:23
When was this plan planned? It was planned before the foundation of the world, which also means before the fall. Not only did He plan this salvation before the world began, but He also chose who He was going to be saved before the foundations.
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
— Ephesians 1:4
The book of life of the Lamb who was slain existed before the foundation of the world also, with the names of the chosen already recorded.
What was God's choice to choose who He chose based on? Their works? No, which includes any works that God sees them doing in the future, as if God chose them based off foreknowing what they would do. I hear a lot of people argue this. So on what basis did He choose them?
His mercy.
Think of it this way. Every man is drowning in the river of his own sins, with one on the bank of the river choosing to give life jackets to a few of them.
Why does He choose them and not the others?
The answer is... because He chose them. He chose them because He chose them in other words, nothing was found in them that inclined the Lord to choose them.
This was exactly the point Paul makes when he says:
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
— Romans 9:11
Why did God love Jacob and not Esau? Because He loved him. He loved Him because He chose to set His love on him, because He loved him.
Why does God have mercy and compassion on His chosen? Because He has mercy and compassion on them.
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
— Romans 9:15-16
What does His mercy depend on? It depends on God, who has mercy.
“The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the Lord brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
— Deuteronomy 7:7-8
God loved and chose His chosen because He loved them. Therefore there is no boast before God. There is no boast because there is no room for one, salvation is of the Lord.
Let me also add that "predetermined" means that God planned His solution ahead of time.
"He chose us" -- He planned to make peoples who would belong to Him before making the world. This is talking about the church, not some predetermined thing like Joe's saved and Sally isn't no matter what they do.
You're making my point, God chooses stuff. It matters, it has real impact, God has free will. So do we, because he gave it to us, otherwise there is no need for laws or directions such as "you shall not eat of the tree of good and evil, or you will surely die".
God did not purposefully intend for us to sin, or die. We chose that path. He does decide what happens as a result, because He has all authority over creation. He figured out a solution that redeems, because He loves us. We get to choose that part too, though that choice is only made available because God opened it up as an option.
God knowing man would sin is quite different from Him predetermining him to sin, which would make no sense. We aren't puppets, and God isn't evil.
All of your free will theories and philosophies are grounded in misconception. Let's learn what this means:
But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today.
— Deuteronomy 2:30
I'll walk you through it. What two options did Sihon have?
Next, what does this verse give as to the reason Sihon made the choice he made?
And finally, what was the purpose behind the reason behind his choice?
Please respond directly to all three of these questions, in short answer format. If you fail to do this, it means you're hiding, and you're not being honest with yourself.
“Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.
— Acts 1:16
Think about what is being claimed here.
Also these:
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
— 2 Peter 1:20-21
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
— 2 Timothy 3:16
Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
— John 10:34-35
which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,
— Romans 1:2
There is no problem, the Scriptures are self-authenticating and self-authoritative based off the fact the prophecies and words foretold in Scripture have come to pass. There is no other God like the Lord.
“Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;
— Isaiah 46:9-10
Except they're not vague, you're just not aware of them. They're quite specific. Look at Isaiah 53 for example.
Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.
— Isaiah 53:1-12
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall follow the Lord your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the Lord your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you.
— Deuteronomy 13:1-5
For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance.
— Matthew 24:24-25
Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
— 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12
“Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.
— Acts 1:16
The Holy Spirit is God, He foretold things by the mouth of of David in the Scriptures, telling things through the mouths of prophets and kings. He used men as pens, their mouths to foretell truth.
Rev 22:17 KJV And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever WILL, let him take the water of life freely.
Nobody will come, unless it is first granted by the Father for them to come. If man's free will existed, then we would grant it to ourselves, but as it is, it is the Father who grants this.
And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
— John 6:65
2Pe 3:9 KJV The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Deu 30:19 KJV I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Yes a choice is presented, but just because a choice exists doesn't mean it's a free will choice. Men choose one way or the other depending on what God has purposed for them to choose.
If His purpose for them is to choose life, then He will be merciful to them. If that is not His purpose, then they will be hardened.
The fact that you insist on "proof texting" as opposed to relying on the recieved tradition is a good argument that you not only have free will but are abusing the privilege.
May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, “That You may be justified in Your words, And prevail when You are judged.” — Romans 3:4
His words on the topic are all that matter, the opinions and philosophies of men don't deserve the trust of anyone.
Here's the problem that is obvious to everyone else: It's not "his words" it's "your filter".
I never met him but in my youth I knew people who knew David Koresh. You sound a lot like him. Normal people in real religions have some buffer between what the religion teaches them and what they imagine to be true. It's keeps them on an even keel and prevents them from going on the internet and proclaiming that they have the one true inside dope and everyone else going to hell.
This is why there are no Methodist suicide bombers or Lutheran terrorist cells.
Now, Christians DO believe in a concept called the "scandal of particularity" which holds the Jesus is the only way to be saved. But in Christianity, this is an occasion for great humility and a desire to love one's neighbor not an excuse to get rowdy on the internet.
I don't see a verse anywhere.
Let's go very, very, slowly.... I don't actually disagree with you. At least not in the most technical sense. Your methodology for getting there is dangerous. Starting this fight here is an embarrassment. Those are my concerns.
If a lump of clay had the ability to shape itself then we could say free will exists, but clay doesn't budge, unless it is in the hands of the potter. Have you never read:
There is no one who calls on Your name, Who arouses himself to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities. But now, O Lord, You are our Father, We are the clay, and You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand. — Isaiah 64:7-8
You didn't understand a thing I wrote, did you? This is the Donald.win. Go do fundamentalist stuff someplace else.
You don't know what you're talking about. There isn't in any sense technical or whatever otherwise free will.
The fact that I reject your challenge affirms it.
What if you're rejecting it out of foolishness due to God not giving you enough wisdom?
It was still my choice. Ergo... free will.
What if the choices you make aren't based on free will, but God's purpose?
That is the only God in existence. There is no one else.
Some are chosen from the beginning to salvation, and the rest are hardened.
Where is man's free will in any of this? It's nowhere to be found.
But now, O Lord, You are our Father, We are the clay, and You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand. — Isaiah 64:8
All of us are at the mercy of God. My being chosen wasn't based on anything in me, anything good or bad I've done, or based anything something superior. He had mercy on me because He had mercy on me. That's the reason. God will in the end receive all of the glory because He is God.
No God does not wish or purpose to save everybody. He does not love everyone. In fact He hates certain people. He has prepared them for destruction and they will all die in their sins, for they have all sinned against Him and it is what they deserve.
If we don’t have free will than none of God’s calls to repentance matter one hoot. See: all the verses that call/ask/admonish people to do anything.
Many are called, few are chosen. If repentance is based on free will then why do we find verses that read like this?
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, — 2 Timothy 2:25
If man had free will we'd be able to grant repentance to ourselves. But as it is, God is the one who grants it. All are at the mercy of God to grant it to them.
Predestination is also true. There are verses for both. Personally, I think it has to do with God being outside of time and our inability to understand it. Deuteronomy 29:29
If predestination is true, then free will is not true. The two are mutually exclusive that's just basic common sense.
It is implied. More than implied, it is foundational. Any advice or warning or command is predicated on there being free will. In a sense, free-will is what you 'achieve' with faith. Instead of being purely determined by events and chemistry and physics and psychology you are influenced against the expected mechanistic outcome, to select something based only on "will", free from worldly interference.
Free will and faith are related in surprising ways, or can be.
If it's any of this as you say, you should be able to find a verse in the Bible. I don't see a verse anywhere.
If you're not claiming to be a believer then you can make a small philosophical argument. Just keep it somewhat short and we can have a back and forth. This post is meant to challenge the people who claim to accept Jesus of their own free will.
So if we have no free will, accepting or not accepting Jesus makes no difference. Choosing to accept God into your heart is the litmus test for being redeemed.
What verses teach free will?
God said not to eat off the tree, Adam and Eve both ate it.
Jesus never forced anyone to do anything. He taught, exhorted, called, led, and set an example.
The idea of sin is completely meaningless unless people are freely allowed to choose.
What's your point with trying to deny free will?
The fall was planned by God according to the Bible. I don't see any verses from you teaching free will. The point is to magnify the sovereignty of God. He is in full active control every moment throughout all the universe and heaven.
God knew the fall would happen, but he didn't "plan" it. He planned what to do about it in response.
I think your idea is more in line with the Greek understanding of Fate.
He did plan it. He plans all things.
“I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted. — Job 42:2
this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. — Acts 2:23
When was this plan planned? It was planned before the foundation of the world, which also means before the fall. Not only did He plan this salvation before the world began, but He also chose who He was going to be saved before the foundations.
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love — Ephesians 1:4
The book of life of the Lamb who was slain existed before the foundation of the world also, with the names of the chosen already recorded.
What was God's choice to choose who He chose based on? Their works? No, which includes any works that God sees them doing in the future, as if God chose them based off foreknowing what they would do. I hear a lot of people argue this. So on what basis did He choose them?
His mercy.
Think of it this way. Every man is drowning in the river of his own sins, with one on the bank of the river choosing to give life jackets to a few of them.
Why does He choose them and not the others?
The answer is... because He chose them. He chose them because He chose them in other words, nothing was found in them that inclined the Lord to choose them.
This was exactly the point Paul makes when he says:
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, — Romans 9:11
Why did God love Jacob and not Esau? Because He loved him. He loved Him because He chose to set His love on him, because He loved him.
Why does God have mercy and compassion on His chosen? Because He has mercy and compassion on them.
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. — Romans 9:15-16
What does His mercy depend on? It depends on God, who has mercy.
“The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the Lord brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. — Deuteronomy 7:7-8
God loved and chose His chosen because He loved them. Therefore there is no boast before God. There is no boast because there is no room for one, salvation is of the Lord.
Let me also add that "predetermined" means that God planned His solution ahead of time.
"He chose us" -- He planned to make peoples who would belong to Him before making the world. This is talking about the church, not some predetermined thing like Joe's saved and Sally isn't no matter what they do.
You're making my point, God chooses stuff. It matters, it has real impact, God has free will. So do we, because he gave it to us, otherwise there is no need for laws or directions such as "you shall not eat of the tree of good and evil, or you will surely die".
God did not purposefully intend for us to sin, or die. We chose that path. He does decide what happens as a result, because He has all authority over creation. He figured out a solution that redeems, because He loves us. We get to choose that part too, though that choice is only made available because God opened it up as an option.
God knowing man would sin is quite different from Him predetermining him to sin, which would make no sense. We aren't puppets, and God isn't evil.
All of your free will theories and philosophies are grounded in misconception. Let's learn what this means:
But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today. — Deuteronomy 2:30
I'll walk you through it. What two options did Sihon have?
Next, what does this verse give as to the reason Sihon made the choice he made?
And finally, what was the purpose behind the reason behind his choice?
Please respond directly to all three of these questions, in short answer format. If you fail to do this, it means you're hiding, and you're not being honest with yourself.
Man wrote the Bible. Just sayin.
Think on this verse:
“Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. — Acts 1:16
Think about what is being claimed here.
Also these:
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. — 2 Peter 1:20-21
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; — 2 Timothy 3:16
Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), — John 10:34-35
which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, — Romans 1:2
There is no problem, the Scriptures are self-authenticating and self-authoritative based off the fact the prophecies and words foretold in Scripture have come to pass. There is no other God like the Lord.
“Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’; — Isaiah 46:9-10
Except they're not vague, you're just not aware of them. They're quite specific. Look at Isaiah 53 for example.
Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot, And like a root out of parched ground; He has no stately form or majesty That we should look upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him. He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth. By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due? His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth. But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities. Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors. — Isaiah 53:1-12
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall follow the Lord your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the Lord your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you. — Deuteronomy 13:1-5
For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance. — Matthew 24:24-25
Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. — 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12
Inspired, but never directly from.
Have you not listened:
“Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. — Acts 1:16
The Holy Spirit is God, He foretold things by the mouth of of David in the Scriptures, telling things through the mouths of prophets and kings. He used men as pens, their mouths to foretell truth.
Look, I was raised Roman-Catholic, and am currently an Agnostic.
I don't like people preaching Christianity at me equally as much as I don't like someone trying to preach Islam at me.
No matter what you say, it is not going to change my mind, and no matter what I say, it isn't going to change your mind.
We will have to agree to disagree... civilly. (Which is how it should be in any debate where there is an obvious stalemate)
I will never fault you for your beliefs, do the same for those that might not agree with you.
Have a great day :)
I'm simply providing to you the Bible's claims, whether you are convinced them them is between you and God.
If I want to be preached to.... I'll open the door when Jehova's Witnesses show up.
You didn't have to respond at all to this post. Right?
Rev 22:17 KJV And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever WILL, let him take the water of life freely.
Who will come?
Nobody will come, unless it is first granted by the Father for them to come. If man's free will existed, then we would grant it to ourselves, but as it is, it is the Father who grants this.
And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” — John 6:65
The KJV translates Strong's G2309 in the following manner:
to will, have in mind, intend
to be resolved or determined, to purpose
to desire, to wish
to love
to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
to take delight in, have pleasure.
which corrupted translation are you using ?
Yes people are given wills, they're just not free.
2Pe 3:9 KJV The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Not willing that any of who should perish?
Deu 30:19 KJV I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Yes a choice is presented, but just because a choice exists doesn't mean it's a free will choice. Men choose one way or the other depending on what God has purposed for them to choose.
If His purpose for them is to choose life, then He will be merciful to them. If that is not His purpose, then they will be hardened.
And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” — John 6:65
Where is free will in this verse?