Nazis did use gas chambers. They started using them in the 1930's on the mentally disabled. They euthanized mentally disabled and sometimes physically disabled people housed in institutions and then told the families that their family member died of the flu or some such thing. Many family members knew this wasn't the case because they had either visited the institutionalized family member or were alerted to the deception by sympathetic staff. Some family members even received a box of ashes and a death certificate when their disabled family member was still alive - living in their homes or they had just visited the family member. however, their stories, like as now, were prevented from being reported on and published and were documented only in complaint letters that survived the war.
When Nazis started executing people en masse they would have the those doomed people line up along trenches dug by inmates used for slave labor and shoot them with machine guns. This practice ended after some time because a) It gave the nazi soldiers doing the executing severe depression and mental problems, 2) many victims actually survived and only acted dead until they could climb out of the pits and 3) people who came across the pits described the horror of seeing it whither and move and bleed.
Heinrich Himmler personally witnessed one of these machine gun death pits and passed out. he was horrified but not at the massacre but at the involuntary response he had and the state of psychosis being induced on the Nazi soldiers. Himmler devised a policy by which he would feed back exhaust into the back end of trucks and thereby suffocate inmates to death by hermetically sealing the trailers and pumping in the exhaust. However, this was costly because the trucks would have to drive around using up fuel and only around 30 inmates could fit in the back of the trucks. Furthermore, sometimes, it didn't kill them because there was a leak or the truck didn't drive around enough. Also, the inmates being suffocated would try to claw their way out and they would scream and shout while dying. The problem with that is "normies" heard the screams and shouts and figured out what the trucks were doing.
Zyklon B or rat poison became the method of choice because it quicker, less costly and more people could be killed per "treatment". Thus the rouse of setting up "showers" and directing victims to showers. Then a Zyklon B tablet would be thrown in, start dissolving and within 20 minutes, the entire room would be full of dead people. The people still screamed and tried to claw their way out but usually formed piles in the center of the room with the weakest on the bottom and the strongest on the top of the pile because the gas was heavier than air and sunk to the bottom of the fake showers.
At first people who were murdered by the Nazis were dumped in huge pits. The crematories were only constructed later and the purposes of hiding the bodies. Before the crematories were constructed, Nazis tried to use a layer of lye and pyres to burn bodies but this was laborious and didn't burn the bodies down to ash but left bones and parts of bodies intact. The crematories were then built to make the fire hotter and more effectively burn up the bodies down to ash.
The Nazis themselves documented all this so it's rather ridiculous to say that faked it. Also, it was observed in the aftermath of both the Soviet, UK and US invasions of Nazi occupied area but mostly, the Soviets saw the process up close and personal because the Soviets "liberated" Poland where the majority of the camps were. Furthermore, people who lived in towns around the concentration camps were quite well aware of what was going on and many of them did provide testimony to that effect. It is a myth that most people around the camps didn't know what the camps were. They did but because of guilt and shame, they pretended they did. Just as most Germans of a certain age, pretend they were duped by Hitler when it is purely obvious by 1943 that Hitler and the Nazis could not possibly win the war and were dragging this out on account of fear of what the allies would do them.
There were Jews that fought on the side of the Nazis but it's ridiculous to say that somehow, zionists or Jews as a group were supporting or working with the Nazis. That is a very stupid theory and it's as crazy as saying the USA and the USSR were actually working together to hurt the third world during the Cold War. Only a flippin' simpleton that had no actual primary date on the facts would maintain such ridiculous position, which is why I think Noam Chomsky is a dishonest simpleton.
Anyway, There were Jewish in Finland that joined Nazi units or Finnish units that were attached to Nazis. They didn't do this because they supported Adolf Hitler or Nazism. They did it because Russia had invaded Finland and the Fins, unlike the duped liberal and lefty masses of western Europe and the U.S. knew what a hell hole Stalin had turned Russia into. The Jews in the Finnish military simply believed that they had a better chance of surviving by joining Finland's alliance with the Nazis against Russia. They were right. Almost all of Finland's Jews survived WWII.
Other Jews, such as George Soros, were more "Aryan" in appearance and joined the Nazis as a matter of self preservation. Stella of Berlin is another Jew, who like Soros, helped Nazis round up other Jews. It should be noted, all Jews who helped Nazis voluntarily round up other Jews like Soros and Stella were on the political left but opposed Soviet Communism. Some of them were Trotskyites. Soros was not raised as a Jew by his parents but rather as a proto globalists even going as far as the whole family learning and speaking Esperanto. The number of Jews who were offered this employment and participated in this type of work is extremely low. it's like getting struck by lightening twice categories of low. Most Jews that betrayed other Jews were forced to on an almost immediate life and death type of situations. I dont know if I can or will judge them. If i could keep my family alive a while longer by acting like the Judenrat in a place like Riga, I probably would. Thank God I have never had to deal with that situation and when I pray the Lord's Prayer, the Our Father, I hope the part of "lead me not into temptation but deliver us from evil" means I will never have to face that situation.
There is another group of Jews that also served on the side of the Nazis. These were very stupid and politically deranged Jews that came from places like Denmark, the Netherlands, even Sweden and Norway. They joined paramilitary groups when the Nazis started their ascendency. Those paramilitary groups became regular units during occupations or some of those groups just left places like Sweden and Switzerland to join Hitler's army as a unit comprised of foreigners. These Jews were incredibly stupid and fanatical and so were just about anyone who joined these units. Croates and Bosnians also had these units of Foreigners that fought along with the Nazis. Jews were very underrepresented in these groups and mostly came from Denmark. most of these foreign units also disbanded before the end of the war and many deserted. Although yes, Jews did serve in these units, it was by no means a well represented group and these foreign units were pretty insignificant to the Nazi war effort.
So yes, it's a matter of historical record that Jews served in the Nazi army but to say that without context is very misleading and distorts history. Frankly, it's as ridiculous as bringing up the fact that blacks served in the Confederate army or blacks owned slaves in the decade or two before the Civil War. yes it happened but it wasn't representative and American antebellum southern slave trade was almost exclusively race based slavery. Colonial slavery and early American slavery was not nearly as race based as it was in the 1840's, 1850's. Also, most black confederate soldiers were serving in place of their masters or told they would win their freedom if they fought. just as most black slave owners in the immediate antebellum south were slave owners because they were trying to buy a few friends and family out of slavery, but yes, they also did it in equal measure to own slave labor.
Human endeavors are rarely cut and dry in the moral realm and there are always cases that break the rules. however, these exceptions are not credible as arguments against the general trends and circumstances being as they were.
That some Jews, very very few Jews, fought on the side of the Nazis is absolutely no indication that Jews "worked with" the Nazis as some dolts seem to think in any organized manner or excuses the Nazi atrocities.
Finally, denying the holocaust outright is ahistorical and an illiterate thing to do. However, i don't think it's nearly the huge damn calamity and affront that most lefties make it out to be now. I think it's much more horrendous and ridiculous that the left denies the horrors that communism and socialism has perpetrated across this entire planet. I am most incensed at the left wing lie that Hitler was "on the right" when in fact, given the American paradigm of politics, Hitler is on the left and frankly, he's a racist piece of socialist filth. Mussolini was on the left too but somehow, Democrats and lefties have re-written history. Just like they pretend that the Confederacy was "right wing" or that that the klan was on the right when it was clearly, very clearly on the left. In fact, the one rule that doesn't seem to be broken in history regarding the slave trade is that not a single Republican alive in the days of Abraham Lincoln owned a slave, not one. There was never any Republican slave owners in history and the overwhelming majority of slave owners were Democrats.
I don't think it's ever illiterate to question documents. I'd argue that it's most illiterate to assert the truth or falsity of the documents without reviewing them.
I have seen the documents and I've read hundreds of first hand accounts and hundreds of books on the subject of genocides and ethnic cleansing, particularly regarding Nazi Germany. it's probably the most well documented genocide in all of human history.
I'm absolutely convinced it happened and it was brutal that it can cause someone with no hate in the heart at all to strike out of hate toward all that is German. I honestly believe it's this steady dose of holocaust saturation that is creating some crazy weird hate within the hearts of leftists. I know this because i've felt it myself while immersed in these sorts of studies.
There was a massive political push after WWII to view communists as great resistors of Nazism and rebrand Nazism as being "right wing". The truth, from what I have read, is pretty much the opposite. There is literally no one before 1939 that says Nazis are right wing. Hitler is universally defended by the left wing throughout the entire western world. Such notables on the left that supported Hitler are Margaret Sanger, Havelock Ellis, George Bernard Shaw, Charles Lindbergh, The U.S. ambassador to England JFK's father, Joseph Kennedy defended and apologized for Hitler. Communists, socialists and fascist the world over celebrated the Rippentrop Molotov pact between Nazi Germany and Communist Russia. The cultural, military and intelligence exchanges between Stalin's Soviet Union and Hitler's Germany rival the exchanges between the UK and the USA during the 1980's. For good measure, that other leftist that gets mislabeled as a right wing, that fascist Benito Mussolini was also thouroughly loved by the left, at least initially. So I do absolutely understand why you do not believe so much of the narrative about Nazi Germany imposed everywhere after WWII.
I mean there are still people running around thinking that the communists were the great resistors to Nazis in occupied France and Pietan of Vichy France was a right winger. In all honestly, most communists gave up communism and didn't resist the Nazis and the ones who did were pretty already marked men. They also didn't really do a whole lot of resisting at all. Pietan was a lefty, not a right winger. Vichy France went along with Hitler even when they didn't have to.
This complete rewriting of the most this most horrible and tragic war with all its unspeakable crimes, has been a huge disservice to truth, especially when it's been used as an cudgel to smack right wingers every where at every opportunity. I don't blame people for questioning "the narrative" at all because every bit of questioning is treated as if the questioner is some sort of Nazi barbarian just waiting to throw a heil hitler to some new Fuhrer.
The Jews and Jewish officers that fought alongside Hitler did have Hitler's support but not at all enthusiastic support. They were just the Jews Hitler was going to get to last. As I said, most of them were from Denmark. They were deranged nutcases. They were anticommunist, that's true but they weren't anti-leftists and they sure as heck weren't pro-freedom liberty truth and puppies and rainbows. They're actually very tragic characters that deluded themselves. Not so with the Finnish Jews. The Finnish Jews made a very clear calculation - would they be better off fighting alongside Hitler against Russia or would they be better off fighting Hitler alongside Russians. They choose rightly and most of them lived. in fact, Finland barely lost any Jews during WWII. Given a nutcase charismatic figure or a slight difference in their opinions, they may have ended up on the other side and in that case, most of them would have probably perished. now, when you accuse me of disparaging the Jews that fought along Hitler, you must ask yourself, I say the Finish Jews made a calculated and smart decision that worked for them and the Danish Jews made foolhardy and delusional decisions. yet, if I certainly if a bone to pick I would say both groups were delusional but I'm not saying that. The Danish Jews mostly died by the wars end along with a sizeable chunk of the Danish Jewish population. The Finnish Jews all lived. The Finnish Jews were acting reasonable and in their best interest. The Danish Jews made a huge, huge error in judgement due to their crazy political beliefs. This is, of course, open to debate as to how nutso the Danish Jews were. One could even argue to what degree each one of them were actually acting on a political belief. The same is true of the Finnish Jews. There may have been a nut or two among the Finnish Jews. however, all the documentation we have shows the jews from Denmark had horribly misinterpreted Nazism because of their own fanatical biases and theJews from Finland knew they were facing two horrible possibilities and threw in their lot with what they calculated was the lesser of two evils.
Again, i don't expect anyone to just automatically agree with me and I am very frustrated and have been for decades about the great re-writing of WWII that puts Hitler "on the right" specifically the American right which is a whole entire different thing from the European right, and I'd argue, categorically different than European political right. yes, that gets me upset, especially during the cold war when commie sympathizers tried to say they were the heirs of the resistance to Nazis when they weren't and aren't. Antifa today tries to argue the same thing but they are no more the heirs of resistance to nazism than Pietan is a resistor to Hitler. They are just a different flavor of the left wing totalitarianism. Does it really matter, after all, if one is put to death for having the wrong religion or the wrong ethnicity if both get the innocent equally killed? Does it really matter when being accused of horrible crimes for political purposes whether the crimes are brought in the name of the people or the state if the charges are equally false? Nazism and Communism and Socialism and Fascism, they all wind up being the same because they all attempt to control the hearts and minds of men by converting the people into ideologues for a particular flavor of totalitarian shit.
Every genocide and ethnic cleansing that results in massive amounts of murder, even unfathomable horror, at it root has the same problems. Some group of people is labeled not only a problem but a problem that must be destroyed for the rest of the people to live. The solution to this is very simple but we don't ever push the solution because we'd have to admit some hard things about ourselves to do it......No human problem is every solved by eliminating humans. There will never be a world without vice, without hardship, without problems and we will never all agree and get along in perfect harmony. We are chaotic messes and we need to learn to love each other despite the mess.
When Nazis started executing people en masse they would have the those doomed people line up along trenches dug by inmates used for slave labor and shoot them with machine guns. This practice ended after some time because a) It gave the nazi soldiers doing the executing severe depression and mental problems, 2) many victims actually survived and only acted dead until they could climb out of the pits and 3) people who came across the pits described the horror of seeing it whither and move and bleed.
Heinrich Himmler personally witnessed one of these machine gun death pits and passed out. he was horrified but not at the massacre but at the involuntary response he had and the state of psychosis being induced on the Nazi soldiers. Himmler devised a policy by which he would feed back exhaust into the back end of trucks and thereby suffocate inmates to death by hermetically sealing the trailers and pumping in the exhaust. However, this was costly because the trucks would have to drive around using up fuel and only around 30 inmates could fit in the back of the trucks. Furthermore, sometimes, it didn't kill them because there was a leak or the truck didn't drive around enough. Also, the inmates being suffocated would try to claw their way out and they would scream and shout while dying. The problem with that is "normies" heard the screams and shouts and figured out what the trucks were doing.
Zyklon B or rat poison became the method of choice because it quicker, less costly and more people could be killed per "treatment". Thus the rouse of setting up "showers" and directing victims to showers. Then a Zyklon B tablet would be thrown in, start dissolving and within 20 minutes, the entire room would be full of dead people. The people still screamed and tried to claw their way out but usually formed piles in the center of the room with the weakest on the bottom and the strongest on the top of the pile because the gas was heavier than air and sunk to the bottom of the fake showers.
At first people who were murdered by the Nazis were dumped in huge pits. The crematories were only constructed later and the purposes of hiding the bodies. Before the crematories were constructed, Nazis tried to use a layer of lye and pyres to burn bodies but this was laborious and didn't burn the bodies down to ash but left bones and parts of bodies intact. The crematories were then built to make the fire hotter and more effectively burn up the bodies down to ash.
The Nazis themselves documented all this so it's rather ridiculous to say that faked it. Also, it was observed in the aftermath of both the Soviet, UK and US invasions of Nazi occupied area but mostly, the Soviets saw the process up close and personal because the Soviets "liberated" Poland where the majority of the camps were. Furthermore, people who lived in towns around the concentration camps were quite well aware of what was going on and many of them did provide testimony to that effect. It is a myth that most people around the camps didn't know what the camps were. They did but because of guilt and shame, they pretended they did. Just as most Germans of a certain age, pretend they were duped by Hitler when it is purely obvious by 1943 that Hitler and the Nazis could not possibly win the war and were dragging this out on account of fear of what the allies would do them.
Anyway, There were Jewish in Finland that joined Nazi units or Finnish units that were attached to Nazis. They didn't do this because they supported Adolf Hitler or Nazism. They did it because Russia had invaded Finland and the Fins, unlike the duped liberal and lefty masses of western Europe and the U.S. knew what a hell hole Stalin had turned Russia into. The Jews in the Finnish military simply believed that they had a better chance of surviving by joining Finland's alliance with the Nazis against Russia. They were right. Almost all of Finland's Jews survived WWII.
Other Jews, such as George Soros, were more "Aryan" in appearance and joined the Nazis as a matter of self preservation. Stella of Berlin is another Jew, who like Soros, helped Nazis round up other Jews. It should be noted, all Jews who helped Nazis voluntarily round up other Jews like Soros and Stella were on the political left but opposed Soviet Communism. Some of them were Trotskyites. Soros was not raised as a Jew by his parents but rather as a proto globalists even going as far as the whole family learning and speaking Esperanto. The number of Jews who were offered this employment and participated in this type of work is extremely low. it's like getting struck by lightening twice categories of low. Most Jews that betrayed other Jews were forced to on an almost immediate life and death type of situations. I dont know if I can or will judge them. If i could keep my family alive a while longer by acting like the Judenrat in a place like Riga, I probably would. Thank God I have never had to deal with that situation and when I pray the Lord's Prayer, the Our Father, I hope the part of "lead me not into temptation but deliver us from evil" means I will never have to face that situation.
There is another group of Jews that also served on the side of the Nazis. These were very stupid and politically deranged Jews that came from places like Denmark, the Netherlands, even Sweden and Norway. They joined paramilitary groups when the Nazis started their ascendency. Those paramilitary groups became regular units during occupations or some of those groups just left places like Sweden and Switzerland to join Hitler's army as a unit comprised of foreigners. These Jews were incredibly stupid and fanatical and so were just about anyone who joined these units. Croates and Bosnians also had these units of Foreigners that fought along with the Nazis. Jews were very underrepresented in these groups and mostly came from Denmark. most of these foreign units also disbanded before the end of the war and many deserted. Although yes, Jews did serve in these units, it was by no means a well represented group and these foreign units were pretty insignificant to the Nazi war effort.
So yes, it's a matter of historical record that Jews served in the Nazi army but to say that without context is very misleading and distorts history. Frankly, it's as ridiculous as bringing up the fact that blacks served in the Confederate army or blacks owned slaves in the decade or two before the Civil War. yes it happened but it wasn't representative and American antebellum southern slave trade was almost exclusively race based slavery. Colonial slavery and early American slavery was not nearly as race based as it was in the 1840's, 1850's. Also, most black confederate soldiers were serving in place of their masters or told they would win their freedom if they fought. just as most black slave owners in the immediate antebellum south were slave owners because they were trying to buy a few friends and family out of slavery, but yes, they also did it in equal measure to own slave labor.
Human endeavors are rarely cut and dry in the moral realm and there are always cases that break the rules. however, these exceptions are not credible as arguments against the general trends and circumstances being as they were.
That some Jews, very very few Jews, fought on the side of the Nazis is absolutely no indication that Jews "worked with" the Nazis as some dolts seem to think in any organized manner or excuses the Nazi atrocities.
I don't think it's ever illiterate to question documents. I'd argue that it's most illiterate to assert the truth or falsity of the documents without reviewing them.
I have seen the documents and I've read hundreds of first hand accounts and hundreds of books on the subject of genocides and ethnic cleansing, particularly regarding Nazi Germany. it's probably the most well documented genocide in all of human history.
I'm absolutely convinced it happened and it was brutal that it can cause someone with no hate in the heart at all to strike out of hate toward all that is German. I honestly believe it's this steady dose of holocaust saturation that is creating some crazy weird hate within the hearts of leftists. I know this because i've felt it myself while immersed in these sorts of studies.
There was a massive political push after WWII to view communists as great resistors of Nazism and rebrand Nazism as being "right wing". The truth, from what I have read, is pretty much the opposite. There is literally no one before 1939 that says Nazis are right wing. Hitler is universally defended by the left wing throughout the entire western world. Such notables on the left that supported Hitler are Margaret Sanger, Havelock Ellis, George Bernard Shaw, Charles Lindbergh, The U.S. ambassador to England JFK's father, Joseph Kennedy defended and apologized for Hitler. Communists, socialists and fascist the world over celebrated the Rippentrop Molotov pact between Nazi Germany and Communist Russia. The cultural, military and intelligence exchanges between Stalin's Soviet Union and Hitler's Germany rival the exchanges between the UK and the USA during the 1980's. For good measure, that other leftist that gets mislabeled as a right wing, that fascist Benito Mussolini was also thouroughly loved by the left, at least initially. So I do absolutely understand why you do not believe so much of the narrative about Nazi Germany imposed everywhere after WWII.
I mean there are still people running around thinking that the communists were the great resistors to Nazis in occupied France and Pietan of Vichy France was a right winger. In all honestly, most communists gave up communism and didn't resist the Nazis and the ones who did were pretty already marked men. They also didn't really do a whole lot of resisting at all. Pietan was a lefty, not a right winger. Vichy France went along with Hitler even when they didn't have to.
This complete rewriting of the most this most horrible and tragic war with all its unspeakable crimes, has been a huge disservice to truth, especially when it's been used as an cudgel to smack right wingers every where at every opportunity. I don't blame people for questioning "the narrative" at all because every bit of questioning is treated as if the questioner is some sort of Nazi barbarian just waiting to throw a heil hitler to some new Fuhrer.
The Jews and Jewish officers that fought alongside Hitler did have Hitler's support but not at all enthusiastic support. They were just the Jews Hitler was going to get to last. As I said, most of them were from Denmark. They were deranged nutcases. They were anticommunist, that's true but they weren't anti-leftists and they sure as heck weren't pro-freedom liberty truth and puppies and rainbows. They're actually very tragic characters that deluded themselves. Not so with the Finnish Jews. The Finnish Jews made a very clear calculation - would they be better off fighting alongside Hitler against Russia or would they be better off fighting Hitler alongside Russians. They choose rightly and most of them lived. in fact, Finland barely lost any Jews during WWII. Given a nutcase charismatic figure or a slight difference in their opinions, they may have ended up on the other side and in that case, most of them would have probably perished. now, when you accuse me of disparaging the Jews that fought along Hitler, you must ask yourself, I say the Finish Jews made a calculated and smart decision that worked for them and the Danish Jews made foolhardy and delusional decisions. yet, if I certainly if a bone to pick I would say both groups were delusional but I'm not saying that. The Danish Jews mostly died by the wars end along with a sizeable chunk of the Danish Jewish population. The Finnish Jews all lived. The Finnish Jews were acting reasonable and in their best interest. The Danish Jews made a huge, huge error in judgement due to their crazy political beliefs. This is, of course, open to debate as to how nutso the Danish Jews were. One could even argue to what degree each one of them were actually acting on a political belief. The same is true of the Finnish Jews. There may have been a nut or two among the Finnish Jews. however, all the documentation we have shows the jews from Denmark had horribly misinterpreted Nazism because of their own fanatical biases and theJews from Finland knew they were facing two horrible possibilities and threw in their lot with what they calculated was the lesser of two evils.
Again, i don't expect anyone to just automatically agree with me and I am very frustrated and have been for decades about the great re-writing of WWII that puts Hitler "on the right" specifically the American right which is a whole entire different thing from the European right, and I'd argue, categorically different than European political right. yes, that gets me upset, especially during the cold war when commie sympathizers tried to say they were the heirs of the resistance to Nazis when they weren't and aren't. Antifa today tries to argue the same thing but they are no more the heirs of resistance to nazism than Pietan is a resistor to Hitler. They are just a different flavor of the left wing totalitarianism. Does it really matter, after all, if one is put to death for having the wrong religion or the wrong ethnicity if both get the innocent equally killed? Does it really matter when being accused of horrible crimes for political purposes whether the crimes are brought in the name of the people or the state if the charges are equally false? Nazism and Communism and Socialism and Fascism, they all wind up being the same because they all attempt to control the hearts and minds of men by converting the people into ideologues for a particular flavor of totalitarian shit.
Every genocide and ethnic cleansing that results in massive amounts of murder, even unfathomable horror, at it root has the same problems. Some group of people is labeled not only a problem but a problem that must be destroyed for the rest of the people to live. The solution to this is very simple but we don't ever push the solution because we'd have to admit some hard things about ourselves to do it......No human problem is every solved by eliminating humans. There will never be a world without vice, without hardship, without problems and we will never all agree and get along in perfect harmony. We are chaotic messes and we need to learn to love each other despite the mess.
Jesus Christ, looks like we found the guy who took AP history.
AP history, I suspect, teaches Hitler was a right winger. I'm arguing Hitler was a left winger.
I need to re-read then because from the first part it seemed like you were recanting the official story