Read up Canon 9 council of Trent, Ephesians 2, verses 8 and 9, is specifically the opposite of Catholic teaching. Simplified it means that they declare anyone who thinks faith alone to be sufficient to be unsaved and destined for Hell.
I can create a pot and thus, the pot is created as a pot. If it falls, it will break. Doesn't change that the pot was originally a pot. Just means it's broken now.
Mankind was created in the image of God. Sinless and without blemish, thus, able to walk in His presence. We fell and we're thusly broken. Doesn't mean we weren't originally in the image of God.
If we were created in his image, then we would have been impervious to sin, manipulation, temptation, or disobedience. If you created that pot, and you created the table, and gravity, and knew the pot would fall, then you are faulty.
Religion doesn't do shit other than make plebs complacent with their shitty ass lives. Just because leftists are amoral swine does not mean religion is the answer.
No, that's just you wanting to be God. It never said "God created gods" it said "God created man in His image." You are adding the misunderstanding that being created in an image is the same as creating a copy.
We were created sinless, just as God is sinless. We aren't all knowing, all powerful and existing outside the constraints of the physical world either. Never were even at the beginning. Bible never advocates that. Doesn't change that aspects of our humanity were created in God's image.
God made the pot and gave it the ability not to fall. It chose to fall. I suppose you would also advocate that those who make guns and bullets are responsible for the damage they can create as well.
Pots don't make any decisions about what they do. They are inanimate objects. If they fell, it's because of gravity and whatever forces knocked them down.
If humans were made in god's image and they still sinned anyways, then god is also a sinner.
The analogy to guns doesn't work unless you want to argue that god created sin for us to use responsibly.
Regardless, you do have a gaping hole in your morality in that, without a concrete reference, you have no standing to say that your viewpoint is any better than anyone else's. To make a claim that someone is wrong because you believe your morality to be superior is just another form of wanting to be God
Adam was cteated in Gods image, Eve was created by God from Adam, the serpent Satan tempted Even to disobey God, Eve convinced Adam to join her, Adam and Eve fell from the garden, man then fell into sin and became depraved.
That's how pretty much all "arguments" by atheists are. Every atheist acts like they came up with some brand new zinger that no one's ever been able to answer, not realizing that theologians wrote entire libraries of books answering the question sometime in the 500s.
"Why would you believe in sometimes as dum as the Trinity!?"
"Have you read Augustine's explanation?"
"Who Augustine?"
If you aren't going to do the slightest amount of research into the answers to your questions, don't go around acting like your questions are unanswerable.
Well theres a lot of misinformation and disinformation about the Bible due to either misinterpretations or just straight up lies to make God and His written word look bad, so I can understand to a certain extent. Then again, all you have to do is ask God for understanding and discernment and read it for yourself.
Well that's correct. That's why King James Version is the way to go. A near perfect translation and not an interpretation.
From what we have found in the dead sea scrolls and other ancient scrolls of old biblical books the KJV has been proven time and time again to be near identical.
Only in the last 100 years was the english bible multiple times been rewritten and deluded to such a degree that people have a hard time figuring out what to read and trusting the bible.
And who do you think would be behind that? God or Satan?
“27 So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” 29 Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every animal of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to everything that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so. 31 And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.” - Genesis 1:27-31
Fast forward to:
“3 Now the serpent was more cunning than any animal of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God really said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” 4 The serpent said to the woman, “You certainly will not die! 5 For God knows that on the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will become like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves waist coverings.“ - Genesis 3:1-7
“17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. - 2 Corinthians 5:17-19
Ive been studying the Bible probably more years than you've been alive. Ive been studying the Christian religion a lot longer than Ive actually had a relationship with God.
One thing I learned through my studies is that religion has placed God in a box. Each sect of christianity has pre packaged answers for tough questions that give the religious person comfort. Each person whole heartedly believes their answer is the only correct God-approved answer. Each person believes they have been given the correct answer by God. Yet each person's answer is different.
I only got answers when I looked past man's interpretations of tje Bible and listened to God.
If you want to really hear God, you must put religion aside and cozy up to the father who loves you like you love your children.
Do we have free will? We are products of our experiences. The choices you will make will be a result of who you are, and who you are is based on what you have experienced and your ability to retain and process information. You don't have free will, you just think you do because it's comforting.
Many Christians are good in spite of their religion, not because of it. All good Christians are hypocrites because they don't follow the bible's rules. If they did, they would have to stone people for adultery and ban women from going to Church during their periods just to name a couple.
Atheists are underrepresented in prisons. Why do you think that is? I think it's because we know we can't do something wrong and then ask for forgiveness.
To quote Penn Gillette,
"The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine. I don’t want to do that."
Christians have been set free from God’s law. We’re under grace not the law.
And when I say Christian, I’m not talking about white Americans who go to church every Sunday or a Catholic. I’m talking about a person, any person, who believes God when he said that he did what was necessary to separate us from this body of sin.
“Being good” is a byproduct of salvation. You don’t achieve salvation by being a good person and following God’s laws. If that was the case, there would have been no need for a sacrifice.
God sacrificed himself to himself so he could stop torturing some of us for eternity? Okay...
I don't need salvation. Your religion sells the cure to the problem that it creates. If I die and it turns out God is real, I will gladly spit in his face because he created an unfair situation where I was not presented convincing arguments for his existence. If he would punish me for his own fault then I don't want to be with him anyway. I would have been created just to be hell fodder, and he knew this would be the result when he created me.
If you ask me, that doesn't sound like a loving God, it sounds more like a celestial tyrant that needs to be overthrown.
Edit: Also, Jesus said
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."
Yes, I lack the information, but so do you and everyone else. Because there's no information that would convince me that I am damned. The idea that I am damned is coming from the same book that sells me the cure. It's an obvious scam, and we can all see it when we look at other gods and religions, just not the specific one our culture and parents instill into us and normalize.
Christianity differs greatly from other religions. You'd like those. They all sell the "you are your own god, capable of saving yourself" line. Christianity does not. Well....some heretical Christianity does.
Either way, you call God a tyrant then blame Him for not convincing you. And you're on this site? Maybe you should read some of the left's "trump is a facist dictator" logic. You'd love it.
I don't understand what you think it is that I need saving from. I do not inherit my father's sins, that doesn't make sense nor is it just.
An all-good, loving, all-powerful and all-seeing god does not create a world where children are brutally raped and murdered on a daily basis. He doesn't make a system where people are tortured for eternity for not coming across convincing arguments for his existence.
edit: I don't see why I have to believe in a fairy tale in order to recognize that Trump is the best president of my lifetime and to want to discuss the evidence that the election was blatantly stolen from him.
Choice and freedom are dangerous. And mankind, the farther it gets from God, will become more murderous, traitorous and sick. A just God would snuff everyone out. You've just picked the sins you like least.
A merciful God allows mankind to continue at all. Luckily, God is all these things. We just don't understand how.
Salvation comes from God from which man created damnation.
Man sinned and thus it was God who said through mankind's seed he will restore all the good and righteous people through the blood of the sacrifice.
Why do you think so many nations had sacrifices? Its because from the beginning God showed man what to do In Preparation for the ultimate sacrifice which was Jesus Christ. And now no one not even the Jews perform sacrifices.
There's no reason for me to believe in damnation. I don't need salvation from something that doesn't exist. The bible is the claim, not the proof. It's just a bronze-age book that was used by charlatans to gain power over gullible sand farmers.
Tell that to billions of people who sometimes have never heard of Jesus Christ and yet have experienced him in either dream, vision or in real life . There are people even to this day having supernatural experiences of Jesus Christ. Yet no one is having buddha's experiences or Allah or Muhammad or any of the ancient gods of the past. That's because they were once real people and are now dead. But Christ was God and is God and is alive.
I get it that you wish not to see , so you won't. You don't want to experience anything so you won't. That's the deal you make with the devil and thus he has you. In Order to get out of that darkness and blindness you need to admit your faults , admit your ignorance and ask Christ to come and really desire it until you die.
You will have something supernatural eventually happen which will solidify then your new found belief. And like many millions you'll never go back.
Some Christians never see anything because they don't wish too but believe anyway. And other don't because they are fruads and never really believed but used God for their own selfish gains.
Tell that to billions of people who sometimes have never heard of Jesus Christ and yet have experienced him in either dream, vision or in real life . There are people even to this day having supernatural experiences of Jesus Christ.
I'm sorry but that sounds like complete BS. If God has the power to make us experience him, why wouldn't he do it for me so I could change my mind about him? I guess it's because he doesn't care that I was created to be hell fodder.
I get it that you wish not to see , so you won't. You don't want to experience anything so you won't. That's the deal you make with the devil and thus he has you. In Order to get out of that darkness and blindness you need to admit your faults , admit your ignorance and ask Christ to come and really desire it until you die. You will have something supernatural eventually happen which will solidify then your new found belief. And like many millions you'll never go back.
I seek the truth and I'm not afraid to admit when I don't know things. I freely admit my ignorance, it's you that seems to need answers even when they aren't satisfactory. Otherwise there would be no reason to tout 'faith' as a virtue. I have asked God to reveal himself to me multiple times and nothing has ever happened. I cannot escape logic like you can. I cannot believe something to be true just because I want it to be, I need evidence, I need convincing arguments. There have been none. I couldn't believe in God even if I wanted to; just like I can't force myself to believe in unicorns or leprechauns. I doubt their existence like I doubt the existence of all gods, yours included. I bet the same logic and reasoning you use to denounce Thor is what I use to denounce your God.
This is why I view religion so poorly. It makes people completely unable to think logically.
So, God can "reveal" himself to atheists who never even heard his name before, but for us to ever experience him, we must first accept that he exists? What kind of god cherry picks which non-believers he'll reveal himself to and which ones he'll demand they first accept him as real before providing any evidence for it? What kind of logical god would create a world where we reach conclusions before we seek out evidence for those conclusions?
I like how you put it (to paraphrase you): I believe in only one less god than you do. It's funny how these guys that you're arguing with don't seem to understand that.
You are already trapped in the pit my friend. Your life does not need to end for you to be there. You are a slave to your desires. You are a slave to your flesh. You also worship yourself in the sense that you see mankind as “top”.
I think it is crazy how many “atheists” have no clue about the actual teachings of the bible but instead parrot popular beliefs about it in order to continue their worship of flesh.
If you are your own master you are free to live in the flesh forever a slave to your own desires. No ability to break these fleshly desires. Youre asleep my friend.
Luckily forgiveness is for all (Matthew 20:1-16). But unluckily you will never be free.
"I'm sorry but that sounds like complete BS. If God has the power to make us experience him, why wouldn't he do it for me so I could change my mind about him?"
You answered your own question and I already answered it.
ITS BECAUSE YOU DON'T CARE. Not God.
God doesn't need you or me or anyone. He wants you to learn about him and love him and have the fear like a father for him. Not to opress you or out you in chains and tell you "worship me you little bitch. "
He will not come to you as long as your have that moronic wall of purposefully blind and deafness between you and reality.
Yes totally! People who self-indentify as atheist tend to come from firmly upper middle class backgrounds... that being said, theyre mostly pretty good people too.
Everything you said is incorrect.
Christians are not bound by Moses law. Even Moses said when the Messiah comes he's going to bring in new laws.
Women used to be banned from synoguge but now in church women may attend and speak. They still can't be Preists or deacons and if you see any you'll know they are not true church as it's clear new testament rules.
Atheists only exists in Christian nations btw. If they appear outside if Christians nations they are either killed like Islamic nations or run the show in Communist nations. As Communism is the very fruit of Athiests in power.
There hasn't been any truly secular capitalist nations. Stalin had to remove God because he wanted to be God. USA is mostly secular, but it could be better. We are not a Christian nation. The Treaty of Tripoli, signed in 1796 by Founding Father John Adams states;
"... the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
What mental gymnastics are you doing to ignore Matthew 5:17-18?
Yes Jesus came to fulfill and not detsory it. He came to fulfill all Moses law in which he kept and promised .
But the Ten commandments which he is referring too shall never pass away. They are still kept today I'm pretty much every nation.
But the Mosaic laws such as what to eat and not to eat , what to wear and not wear what and how to sacrifice for sins and offerings and all the like which are clearly identified as the covenant laws not the laws of God are thrown away with. Moses tells you that and so does God in the old testament. He said clear these laws will eventually change. And when Christ came they clearly did.
People now have liberty because of Christ. We can eat and drink anything and in moderation. We don't have to sacrifice animals for sin because Christ did it for us. I mean I get it it's confusing when you compare religions or denominations with the Bible and see all the hypocricy but you would be only teaming up with God as God hates that so much and that's why the prophets always come and warn the people to knock off the shit and start obeying God has he commanded.
We get it the world and mankind is flawed. But God is perfect and warned us that if we don't strive to be perfect like him then we will fall short. And we must go to him to repent of our sins in which we know we did wrong. For everyone around the earth knows truth from falsehood and wrong from right it's just some refuse to obey while others submit to the clear and evident facts of this reality. That it's made by God and not by chance.
Same problem logic as before. You WANT a tyrant God. A God that conforms to YOUR belief of what's right and wrong. You just want to be God...just like every sinner to walk the face of this earth. Just like Adam...the very first sin.
Typical response. And I won't even answer the premise. Because you missed the point, I'll try to simplify it.
You don't know the plan. You don't know why any of it happens the way it does. And you think you'd do a better job. You believe you'd be a better God. You'd either A Kill the bad guys or B Force everyone to do as you see fit? Very tyrranical. I'm glad the real God gives mankind choice. Sucks that we do such a bad job with it. Probably should take our freedom right? Are you sure you're on the right site?
Why pick child rape? How about premarital sex. I'm guessing you're a big fan. Probably ok with homosexuality, dissing your parents. Basically just don't want people to kill you and take your stuff right?
I love how people blame God. Remember what Adam said? It's your fault God, you stuck Eve here. Your argument is so played it is literally the first excuse ever given.
Why do you ask that question as if you don't know it and already have been told it?
God allows things is not the same as God doing it. ..God made it absolutely clear that he left mankind to their own devices after Adam and Eve fell. Then he appeared again as King to reign over Israel and all the world reconginzed that. Then the people of israel decided to leave God and demand a man king and thus Saul came into being but God used David later on to establish a lineage to push forward the messiah which when he came in the body of Jesus Christ then all sin were taken up by his blood and thus no more sacrifices were ever required.
Your questions are easy to answer but it seems you just don't do any research and probably hang around circle jerk atheist sites that regurgitate the same talking points which all have been proven fruadulant and dismissible because again the answers are out there. And are very easy to point out.
Gotta love the christfags that will ignore things like pedophile priests, or the fact that most churches advocate for mass immigration out of "love" (including the catholics).
Of course. A lot of them are just virtue signaling because they heard Christianity was good, and singing the songs in church makes them feel tingly so it must be.
If you actually read the bible it's extremely difficult to believe. I have no reason to believe any of it. It should be important to them to make sure they believe the truth, but it's not. It's always more important to fit in with others :\
No on ignores them besides the Catholics. Only catholics continue to stay in that God forsaken idolatry church. Vast majority of Christians would kill a Pedophile openly in the street if they found out such evil was present among them.
My friend... you ought to stay away from debating subjects you don’t know much about. The Mosaic law was contingent on the appearance of the Messiah from the very beginning, the 613 OT laws were divided into ethical, ritual, and judicial for a reason. The ethical law is what Christians are obligated to follow because they are reflection of God‘s nature and do not change. The ritual law was contingent on the existence of both the temple and as shadows of the coming Messiah, while the judicial we’re standards for the theocracy of Israel exclusively and not to be imposed on other nations.
Anyway, what’s the problem with being a hypocrite in your worldview? Who cares if a colony of worthless bacteria, a freak accident of chaotic chance, is unable to hold itself to its own perceived standards? Does your favorite ha ha funny comedian have a quote answering for that?
I didn't know that about the laws, thank you for correcting me.
I am thankful that Christians are hypocrites. I wouldn't want to live in a world where they weren't. I'm not complaining, just pointing it out.
We are molecular machines, sure, but that doesn't mean we don't have empathy. Empathy is a survival trait, it encourages us to cooperate and to avoid harming ourselves when we see someone else get hurt - it increases our chances of survival and thus is more likely to get passed down.
We aren't worthless because value is inherently a human concept. But I value you because the chemicals in my brain make me, not because some spirit is controlling me.
I am thankful that Christians are hypocrites. I wouldn't want to live in a world where they weren't.
Wow. Bitter.
Your empathy explanation doesn’t work for the same reason do you said that the chemicals in your brain make you value someone.
If we are merely pre-programmed robots being pushed around by chemicals interacting in our brain, then you don’t TRULY care for someone’s life, values or dignity. It’s pure instinct controlling you, and this “empathy“ you’re referring to is nothing more than a video game AI.
Your SpongeBob SquarePants quote said he wanted to do no rape or killing, but hes speaking only for himself. The thing is, There ARE people out there who are dangerous, who rape and kill and are utterly sociopathic dangers. They’re more common than you would imagine, so they’re not random mutations .Being able to overcome this artificially enforced empathy (in your worldview) in this case is to unlock your true potential, there’s a reason sociopaths make it to the very top of historical historical social ladder. There’s a reason history has been so violent, savage and horrific, there’s a reason why it’s a coinflip to see if you’re the descendent of Genghis Khan.
Anyway I’m still interested that you justifying why it’s a bad thing to be a hypocrite in your worldview since you made a big fuss about it. There’s no inherent loss or problem if you say one thing and do another in your world, functionally your brain chemistry is forcing the hypocrite into behaving like a hypocrite, it’s not his own fault in your worldview, his preprogrammed AI is forcing him to do so against his will and desires.
Likewise there’s a problem, since you are fizzing towards atheism against your own consent and control, and I am fizzing them towards religion and hypocrisy, then how can you yourself not be a hypocrite by calling one a hypocrite, as we are both victims of our own biological natures, utterly powerless to not be hypocrites? What exactly then, is the problem of a Catholic priest molesting a child in your worldview, if the man is merely dictated by the fate written in his genes to behave the way he does? Not that it really matters in the end, what with us been chemicals and bacteria on a dying speck of dust, and all that jazz.
If we are merely pre-programmed robots being pushed around by chemicals interacting in our brain, then you don’t TRULY care for someone’s life, values or dignity. It’s pure instinct controlling you, and this “empathy“ you’re referring to is nothing more than a video game AI.
If God knows the future then free will is just an illusion anyway, since it would have to be pre-determined. That also would mean that anyone who goes to hell was created by him to do so.
And yes, we are a product of our experiences. The choices I will make aren't exactly pre-determined but I will not have a real choice when it comes to make them. My choices (and yours) will always be a result of who I am due to the things I have experienced and my ability to retain and process information. We are all slaves to this, like it or not. The consciousness you feel is a comforting illusion of control. I think of our consciousness as the OS layer of a computer - we aren't aware of most of the things that are going on, we get a very abstracted view that is carefully constructed by the inaccessible parts of our brain.
Likewise there’s a problem, since you are fizzing towards atheism against your own consent and control, and I am fizzing them towards religion and hypocrisy, then how can you yourself not be a hypocrite by calling one a hypocrite, as we are both victims of our own biological natures, utterly powerless to not be hypocrites?
I am providing an experience that can result in a change in you. If your mind is changed it will not be your choice; either my arguments are convincing and instill doubt, or they don't. I am "preprogrammed" for empathy, and I have good reason to believe that life without believing in gods is better for everyone. I have very good reasons to believe that faith is a flaw in thinking that is used to justify atrocities, which is why I'm willing to debate. It may also not be just for you but for someone else reading this thread.
What exactly then, is the problem of a Catholic priest molesting a child in your worldview, if the man is merely dictated by the fate written in his genes to behave the way he does? Not that it really matters in the end, what with us been chemicals and bacteria on a dying speck of dust, and all that jazz.
It matters because I think it does. If our brains weren't around to think and feel, nothing would matter. Sure, I believe that death is final. Consciously, I don't fear death because I know my brain will not be functioning to experience it. Subconscious natural drives make me want to survive, whether I like it or not. I do not believe in a spirit but I do believe in having a lasting effect on those still living. That's why it matters to me that I leave the world a better place than I found it. That's why I care about preventing child rape.
1st point: A god existing out of time and space doesn't preclude that free will doesn't exist. Certainly there are branches of Christianity that are fatalist in their view like Calvinists, but I'm of the Armenian philosophy that God isn't just capable of viewing the future, he's able to view all possible futures and all possible realities. God's sovereignty is total but he reigns it back within the context of creation allowing time to be contingent on the behaviors and decisions of mankind, as one of the major precepts of Christianity is that mankind is given free reign to behave as we will. It's a hands-off approach, but you're still playing chess against the greatest chess player in reality. So no, I don't agree with your premise on per-determinism, we approach reality from two different angles: I that you are responsible for your own behaviors, and you, that you are not.
As for your second response, I find it curious that you recognize that you're not truly conscious nor have free-will, yet you still continue to behave like you do. You name yourself AtheistTrumper, which precludes that you find some sort of comfort and joy in opposition to the notion of anything existing outside of the material universe. I mean, you shitpost on the internet, you visit hobbies that interest you, and generally live your life in a way opposite of the perspective you claim to hold.
Here's what's funny: you talk as though empathy is something to be proud of. As a Christian, I can appreciate one person being able to empathize and comfort another, but understand my point:
One second you're talking about how you're not in control of your behavior, and in another, you espouse the virtue of you having empathy. Why? You're not REALLY empathetic. You have no virtue called empathy. You react fatalistically to the dance of your genetics, there's nothing virtuous about your behavior in your worldview, you can't control it nor can you help it, just like you can't control or help that you're an Atheist. You're a slave to your genes. You're not truly helping people or changing minds, you're exchanging packets of data from one biological computer to another. You're literally doing nothing in your life to help another human being for as long as you have lived... But you boast of empathy. like you're proud of it. Hmm.
What you're doing is your stealing from me. You're stealing from a theistic worldview. You pretend to be a fatalistic beep-boop machine when you have a philosophical need for it, no doubt when you engage with theists and you want to shit all over them... Yet I know that you live your life every day like your life matters, and the lives of the people around you matter. You likely love your wife and your children, your friends and your family, and that love is genuine and real. When your wife tells you she loves you, you don't respond with, "You stupid bitch, you don't really love me, that's just saratonin receptors going off in your brain flooding your nervous system with chemicals, you don't love me and I don't love you, because love is a made-up concept". I know you don't act like that. Why not? Because you're stealing from God every day and living your life as if you mattered and you and the people you're "empathetic" to have intrinisc and infinite value, like the Christian believes you do.
Were you actually consistent your materialistic worldview, you'd sink into an inescapable depression and end your life over the futility of struggling against your own nature. Why bother continuing in a "comforting illusion of control" to quote you? Why live a lie, and try to get others to recognize that they're also living a lie? Why bother leaving the world in a better place, like you're advocating? In atheism, your entire existence is a cage, there's no point in persisting in a universe that is soon going to achieve permanent heat death, all your actions will be utterly forgotten and completely meaningless, and when you die, there's nothing but eternal silence.
And yet, you're on this board yelling at Joe Biden. You're talking politics here, and you've got hobbies and friends and a life outside of here. If you were consistent and weren't stealing from God every day of your life, you wouldn't even be engaging in debate like you believed truth and reason are something important, valuable and real.
As for your point on ethics in the naturalistic worldview: So what?
No, I mean it.
So fucking what?
It matters because I think it does.
Do you realize how flimsy your position is? Your position is ultimately reducible to "we should be good because I like it". The problem is that with this you can literally change ethics by changing your mind.
Just a little justification, and suddenly, that child rape or cannibalism or incest isn't wrong any more. Oh, certainly some people won't approve of it, but there's nothing objectively immoral about it, yeah?
Oh, but God? God is totally evil. He's a tyrant, in your own words. Just because those people over there approve of God doesn't mean he's not, god is objectively immoral.
You're holding to a complete double standard and your entire theological philosophy is a bungled mess.
Finally, it seems like you're dodging my question about hypocrisy. That was my one question to you, and this is my third time asking for you to account for that, so please get on that, because you're dodging: Justify why one person's brain chemistry fizzing towards Atheism and another person is fizzing towards Theism are to be held to notions like truthfulness, objectivity and consistency, and how in your worldview a child predators brain fizzing towards kids is something that he's responsible for. Maybe then we can talk about how a Christian reacts to hypocrisy, because SPOILER: Christianity is all about recognizing your own hypocrisy. That'd be a fun topic.
I am thankful that Christians are hypocrites. I wouldn't want to live in a world where they weren't.
Wow. Bitter.
Your empathy explanation doesn’t work for the same reason do you said that the chemicals in your brain make you value someone.
If we are merely pre-programmed robots being pushed around by chemicals interacting in our brain, then you don’t TRULY care for someone’s life, values or dignity. It’s pure instinct controlling you, and this “empathy“ you’re referring to is nothing more than a video game AI.
Your SpongeBob SquarePants quote said he wanted to do no rape or killing, but hes speaking only for himself. The thing is, There ARE people out there who are dangerous, who rape and kill and are utterly sociopathic dangers. They’re more common than you would imagine, so they’re not random mutations .Being able to overcome this artificially enforced empathy (in your worldview) in this case is to unlock your true potential, there’s a reason sociopaths make it to the very top of historical historical social ladder. There’s a reason history has been so violent, savage and horrific, there’s a reason why it’s a coinflip to see if you’re the descendent of Genghis Khan.
Anyway I’m still interested that you justifying why it’s a bad thing to be a hypocrite in your worldview since you made a big fuss about it. There’s no inherent loss or problem if you say one thing and do another in your world, functionally your brain chemistry is forcing the hypocrite into behaving like a hypocrite, it’s not his own fault in your worldview, his preprogrammed AI is forcing him to do so against his will and desires.
Likewise there’s a problem, since you are fizzing towards atheism against your own consent and control, and I am fizzing them towards religion and hypocrisy, then how can you yourself not be a hypocrite by calling one a hypocrite, as we are both victims of our own biological natures, utterly powerless to not be hypocrites? What exactly then, is the problem of a Catholic priest molesting a child in your worldview, if the man is merely dictated by the feet written in his jeans to behave the way he does? Not that it really matters in the end, what with us been chemicals and bacteria on a dying speck of dust, and all that jazz.
2015 gays get married. Christians only warned they would come after our kids.
5 years later........
For real. We went from "just let them marry" to "just let them fuck your kid" in a half generation.
Pedophilia and Satanic Sacrifice, too.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”
Read up Canon 9 council of Trent, Ephesians 2, verses 8 and 9, is specifically the opposite of Catholic teaching. Simplified it means that they declare anyone who thinks faith alone to be sufficient to be unsaved and destined for Hell.
stolen election, nothing else matters until we do something about it
This is related to why and how the election was stolen.
not just this one; its been decades running.
Good meme, so true.
Wait, this isn't Consume Product..
Sssht, just consume. No talk.
Bannons War Room: How Zuckerberg Stole YOUR Election : https://rumble.com/veisvh-exposed-how-zuckerberg-created-shadow-govt-to-steal-election.html
Amen!
It's funny that most people would consider me an Atheist, but even I agree with this.
Slava Borgia
If we are created in the image of God and we are depraved, does that mean God is depraved also?
See: The Fall
I can create a pot and thus, the pot is created as a pot. If it falls, it will break. Doesn't change that the pot was originally a pot. Just means it's broken now.
Mankind was created in the image of God. Sinless and without blemish, thus, able to walk in His presence. We fell and we're thusly broken. Doesn't mean we weren't originally in the image of God.
If we were created in his image, then we would have been impervious to sin, manipulation, temptation, or disobedience. If you created that pot, and you created the table, and gravity, and knew the pot would fall, then you are faulty.
Religion doesn't do shit other than make plebs complacent with their shitty ass lives. Just because leftists are amoral swine does not mean religion is the answer.
No, that's just you wanting to be God. It never said "God created gods" it said "God created man in His image." You are adding the misunderstanding that being created in an image is the same as creating a copy.
We were created sinless, just as God is sinless. We aren't all knowing, all powerful and existing outside the constraints of the physical world either. Never were even at the beginning. Bible never advocates that. Doesn't change that aspects of our humanity were created in God's image.
God made the pot and gave it the ability not to fall. It chose to fall. I suppose you would also advocate that those who make guns and bullets are responsible for the damage they can create as well.
Pots don't make any decisions about what they do. They are inanimate objects. If they fell, it's because of gravity and whatever forces knocked them down.
If humans were made in god's image and they still sinned anyways, then god is also a sinner.
The analogy to guns doesn't work unless you want to argue that god created sin for us to use responsibly.
And no, I don't want to be god. Stop projecting.
Whoops! Responded to the wrong pede!
Regardless, you do have a gaping hole in your morality in that, without a concrete reference, you have no standing to say that your viewpoint is any better than anyone else's. To make a claim that someone is wrong because you believe your morality to be superior is just another form of wanting to be God
Adam was cteated in Gods image, Eve was created by God from Adam, the serpent Satan tempted Even to disobey God, Eve convinced Adam to join her, Adam and Eve fell from the garden, man then fell into sin and became depraved.
It's kinda sad that people continue to ask this when it's literally in the first couple chapters of the most popular book in history.
That's how pretty much all "arguments" by atheists are. Every atheist acts like they came up with some brand new zinger that no one's ever been able to answer, not realizing that theologians wrote entire libraries of books answering the question sometime in the 500s.
"Why would you believe in sometimes as dum as the Trinity!?"
"Have you read Augustine's explanation?"
"Who Augustine?"
If you aren't going to do the slightest amount of research into the answers to your questions, don't go around acting like your questions are unanswerable.
Kinds like how the left always has an "expert" or "scientists" that has confirmed whatever narrative they're trying to push as an established fact.
Nah, I don't need your experts to tell me that some magical man in the sky is totally real.
Well theres a lot of misinformation and disinformation about the Bible due to either misinterpretations or just straight up lies to make God and His written word look bad, so I can understand to a certain extent. Then again, all you have to do is ask God for understanding and discernment and read it for yourself.
Well that's correct. That's why King James Version is the way to go. A near perfect translation and not an interpretation.
From what we have found in the dead sea scrolls and other ancient scrolls of old biblical books the KJV has been proven time and time again to be near identical.
Only in the last 100 years was the english bible multiple times been rewritten and deluded to such a degree that people have a hard time figuring out what to read and trusting the bible.
And who do you think would be behind that? God or Satan?
“27 So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” 29 Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every animal of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to everything that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so. 31 And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.” - Genesis 1:27-31
Fast forward to:
“3 Now the serpent was more cunning than any animal of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God really said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” 4 The serpent said to the woman, “You certainly will not die! 5 For God knows that on the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will become like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves waist coverings.“ - Genesis 3:1-7
The “serpent” is a fallen spiritual rebel.
https://youtu.be/CamYtVpoTNk
A word study by Dr Michael Heiser explains the context.
https://youtu.be/xWvGVCPldkI
“17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. - 2 Corinthians 5:17-19
No. Read the Bible.
The Bible says we are created in Gods image.
wrong.. read more about the fail and the "we"
Ive been studying the Bible probably more years than you've been alive. Ive been studying the Christian religion a lot longer than Ive actually had a relationship with God.
One thing I learned through my studies is that religion has placed God in a box. Each sect of christianity has pre packaged answers for tough questions that give the religious person comfort. Each person whole heartedly believes their answer is the only correct God-approved answer. Each person believes they have been given the correct answer by God. Yet each person's answer is different.
I only got answers when I looked past man's interpretations of tje Bible and listened to God.
If you want to really hear God, you must put religion aside and cozy up to the father who loves you like you love your children.
good point, but .. are u a jw?
I do not belong to any religious group nor do I subscribe to any doctrine most especially a doctrine that says God will only save 144K people. :)
I just simply love God and I listen to what the spirit rhat God has placed inside of me says.
God’s image is mind, will and emotion. We’re not robots, we have free will.
Do we have free will? We are products of our experiences. The choices you will make will be a result of who you are, and who you are is based on what you have experienced and your ability to retain and process information. You don't have free will, you just think you do because it's comforting.
Many Christians are good in spite of their religion, not because of it. All good Christians are hypocrites because they don't follow the bible's rules. If they did, they would have to stone people for adultery and ban women from going to Church during their periods just to name a couple.
Atheists are underrepresented in prisons. Why do you think that is? I think it's because we know we can't do something wrong and then ask for forgiveness.
To quote Penn Gillette,
Christians have been set free from God’s law. We’re under grace not the law.
And when I say Christian, I’m not talking about white Americans who go to church every Sunday or a Catholic. I’m talking about a person, any person, who believes God when he said that he did what was necessary to separate us from this body of sin.
“Being good” is a byproduct of salvation. You don’t achieve salvation by being a good person and following God’s laws. If that was the case, there would have been no need for a sacrifice.
God sacrificed himself to himself so he could stop torturing some of us for eternity? Okay...
I don't need salvation. Your religion sells the cure to the problem that it creates. If I die and it turns out God is real, I will gladly spit in his face because he created an unfair situation where I was not presented convincing arguments for his existence. If he would punish me for his own fault then I don't want to be with him anyway. I would have been created just to be hell fodder, and he knew this would be the result when he created me.
If you ask me, that doesn't sound like a loving God, it sounds more like a celestial tyrant that needs to be overthrown.
Edit: Also, Jesus said
You don’t understand you need salvation because you don’t have all of the information.
I don’t have a religion. Religion is man-made and demands you do something. I’m not doing anything, that’s the point.
Yes, I lack the information, but so do you and everyone else. Because there's no information that would convince me that I am damned. The idea that I am damned is coming from the same book that sells me the cure. It's an obvious scam, and we can all see it when we look at other gods and religions, just not the specific one our culture and parents instill into us and normalize.
Christianity differs greatly from other religions. You'd like those. They all sell the "you are your own god, capable of saving yourself" line. Christianity does not. Well....some heretical Christianity does.
Either way, you call God a tyrant then blame Him for not convincing you. And you're on this site? Maybe you should read some of the left's "trump is a facist dictator" logic. You'd love it.
I don't understand what you think it is that I need saving from. I do not inherit my father's sins, that doesn't make sense nor is it just.
An all-good, loving, all-powerful and all-seeing god does not create a world where children are brutally raped and murdered on a daily basis. He doesn't make a system where people are tortured for eternity for not coming across convincing arguments for his existence.
edit: I don't see why I have to believe in a fairy tale in order to recognize that Trump is the best president of my lifetime and to want to discuss the evidence that the election was blatantly stolen from him.
Right. An all powerful God makes puppets.
Choice and freedom are dangerous. And mankind, the farther it gets from God, will become more murderous, traitorous and sick. A just God would snuff everyone out. You've just picked the sins you like least.
A merciful God allows mankind to continue at all. Luckily, God is all these things. We just don't understand how.
Jesus is not God. He is the son of God. This is very clear throughout the Bible.
Salvation comes from God from which man created damnation.
Man sinned and thus it was God who said through mankind's seed he will restore all the good and righteous people through the blood of the sacrifice.
Why do you think so many nations had sacrifices? Its because from the beginning God showed man what to do In Preparation for the ultimate sacrifice which was Jesus Christ. And now no one not even the Jews perform sacrifices.
There's no reason for me to believe in damnation. I don't need salvation from something that doesn't exist. The bible is the claim, not the proof. It's just a bronze-age book that was used by charlatans to gain power over gullible sand farmers.
Tell that to billions of people who sometimes have never heard of Jesus Christ and yet have experienced him in either dream, vision or in real life . There are people even to this day having supernatural experiences of Jesus Christ. Yet no one is having buddha's experiences or Allah or Muhammad or any of the ancient gods of the past. That's because they were once real people and are now dead. But Christ was God and is God and is alive.
I get it that you wish not to see , so you won't. You don't want to experience anything so you won't. That's the deal you make with the devil and thus he has you. In Order to get out of that darkness and blindness you need to admit your faults , admit your ignorance and ask Christ to come and really desire it until you die. You will have something supernatural eventually happen which will solidify then your new found belief. And like many millions you'll never go back.
Some Christians never see anything because they don't wish too but believe anyway. And other don't because they are fruads and never really believed but used God for their own selfish gains.
I'm sorry but that sounds like complete BS. If God has the power to make us experience him, why wouldn't he do it for me so I could change my mind about him? I guess it's because he doesn't care that I was created to be hell fodder.
I seek the truth and I'm not afraid to admit when I don't know things. I freely admit my ignorance, it's you that seems to need answers even when they aren't satisfactory. Otherwise there would be no reason to tout 'faith' as a virtue. I have asked God to reveal himself to me multiple times and nothing has ever happened. I cannot escape logic like you can. I cannot believe something to be true just because I want it to be, I need evidence, I need convincing arguments. There have been none. I couldn't believe in God even if I wanted to; just like I can't force myself to believe in unicorns or leprechauns. I doubt their existence like I doubt the existence of all gods, yours included. I bet the same logic and reasoning you use to denounce Thor is what I use to denounce your God.
This is why I view religion so poorly. It makes people completely unable to think logically.
So, God can "reveal" himself to atheists who never even heard his name before, but for us to ever experience him, we must first accept that he exists? What kind of god cherry picks which non-believers he'll reveal himself to and which ones he'll demand they first accept him as real before providing any evidence for it? What kind of logical god would create a world where we reach conclusions before we seek out evidence for those conclusions?
I like how you put it (to paraphrase you): I believe in only one less god than you do. It's funny how these guys that you're arguing with don't seem to understand that.
You are already trapped in the pit my friend. Your life does not need to end for you to be there. You are a slave to your desires. You are a slave to your flesh. You also worship yourself in the sense that you see mankind as “top”.
I think it is crazy how many “atheists” have no clue about the actual teachings of the bible but instead parrot popular beliefs about it in order to continue their worship of flesh.
If you are your own master you are free to live in the flesh forever a slave to your own desires. No ability to break these fleshly desires. Youre asleep my friend.
Luckily forgiveness is for all (Matthew 20:1-16). But unluckily you will never be free.
"I'm sorry but that sounds like complete BS. If God has the power to make us experience him, why wouldn't he do it for me so I could change my mind about him?"
You answered your own question and I already answered it.
ITS BECAUSE YOU DON'T CARE. Not God.
God doesn't need you or me or anyone. He wants you to learn about him and love him and have the fear like a father for him. Not to opress you or out you in chains and tell you "worship me you little bitch. "
He will not come to you as long as your have that moronic wall of purposefully blind and deafness between you and reality.
You know far less about christianity than the confidence with which you phrase your declarations would suggest.
And you also know reason atheists are underrepresented in prison.
I probably know more than you.
What is the reason you're implying? I honestly don't know. Is there some secret cabal that lets atheists out of prison sentences?
You dont.
As far as the prison thing goes... its nothing so complicated as that, just think outside the box a bit. Think simple.
Is it because poverty and religion go together because it gives them hope, and crime and poverty go together?
Yes totally! People who self-indentify as atheist tend to come from firmly upper middle class backgrounds... that being said, theyre mostly pretty good people too.
Everything you said is incorrect. Christians are not bound by Moses law. Even Moses said when the Messiah comes he's going to bring in new laws.
Women used to be banned from synoguge but now in church women may attend and speak. They still can't be Preists or deacons and if you see any you'll know they are not true church as it's clear new testament rules.
Atheists only exists in Christian nations btw. If they appear outside if Christians nations they are either killed like Islamic nations or run the show in Communist nations. As Communism is the very fruit of Athiests in power.
There hasn't been any truly secular capitalist nations. Stalin had to remove God because he wanted to be God. USA is mostly secular, but it could be better. We are not a Christian nation. The Treaty of Tripoli, signed in 1796 by Founding Father John Adams states;
What mental gymnastics are you doing to ignore Matthew 5:17-18?
George Washington would disagree with his assessment.
Yes Jesus came to fulfill and not detsory it. He came to fulfill all Moses law in which he kept and promised .
But the Ten commandments which he is referring too shall never pass away. They are still kept today I'm pretty much every nation. But the Mosaic laws such as what to eat and not to eat , what to wear and not wear what and how to sacrifice for sins and offerings and all the like which are clearly identified as the covenant laws not the laws of God are thrown away with. Moses tells you that and so does God in the old testament. He said clear these laws will eventually change. And when Christ came they clearly did.
People now have liberty because of Christ. We can eat and drink anything and in moderation. We don't have to sacrifice animals for sin because Christ did it for us. I mean I get it it's confusing when you compare religions or denominations with the Bible and see all the hypocricy but you would be only teaming up with God as God hates that so much and that's why the prophets always come and warn the people to knock off the shit and start obeying God has he commanded.
We get it the world and mankind is flawed. But God is perfect and warned us that if we don't strive to be perfect like him then we will fall short. And we must go to him to repent of our sins in which we know we did wrong. For everyone around the earth knows truth from falsehood and wrong from right it's just some refuse to obey while others submit to the clear and evident facts of this reality. That it's made by God and not by chance.
I'll retract my statement about the laws, I'll admit that I have been schooled by some other commenters here.
If God is perfect, why is there child rape? I would argue that I'm a better person than your God because I would stop them if I had the power.
Same problem logic as before. You WANT a tyrant God. A God that conforms to YOUR belief of what's right and wrong. You just want to be God...just like every sinner to walk the face of this earth. Just like Adam...the very first sin.
So you think God thinks child rape is right? I guess that kind of makes sense considering the pedophile priests.
Typical response. And I won't even answer the premise. Because you missed the point, I'll try to simplify it.
You don't know the plan. You don't know why any of it happens the way it does. And you think you'd do a better job. You believe you'd be a better God. You'd either A Kill the bad guys or B Force everyone to do as you see fit? Very tyrranical. I'm glad the real God gives mankind choice. Sucks that we do such a bad job with it. Probably should take our freedom right? Are you sure you're on the right site?
Why pick child rape? How about premarital sex. I'm guessing you're a big fan. Probably ok with homosexuality, dissing your parents. Basically just don't want people to kill you and take your stuff right?
I love how people blame God. Remember what Adam said? It's your fault God, you stuck Eve here. Your argument is so played it is literally the first excuse ever given.
Why do you ask that question as if you don't know it and already have been told it?
God allows things is not the same as God doing it. ..God made it absolutely clear that he left mankind to their own devices after Adam and Eve fell. Then he appeared again as King to reign over Israel and all the world reconginzed that. Then the people of israel decided to leave God and demand a man king and thus Saul came into being but God used David later on to establish a lineage to push forward the messiah which when he came in the body of Jesus Christ then all sin were taken up by his blood and thus no more sacrifices were ever required.
Your questions are easy to answer but it seems you just don't do any research and probably hang around circle jerk atheist sites that regurgitate the same talking points which all have been proven fruadulant and dismissible because again the answers are out there. And are very easy to point out.
Gotta love the christfags that will ignore things like pedophile priests, or the fact that most churches advocate for mass immigration out of "love" (including the catholics).
Of course. A lot of them are just virtue signaling because they heard Christianity was good, and singing the songs in church makes them feel tingly so it must be.
If you actually read the bible it's extremely difficult to believe. I have no reason to believe any of it. It should be important to them to make sure they believe the truth, but it's not. It's always more important to fit in with others :\
No on ignores them besides the Catholics. Only catholics continue to stay in that God forsaken idolatry church. Vast majority of Christians would kill a Pedophile openly in the street if they found out such evil was present among them.
My friend... you ought to stay away from debating subjects you don’t know much about. The Mosaic law was contingent on the appearance of the Messiah from the very beginning, the 613 OT laws were divided into ethical, ritual, and judicial for a reason. The ethical law is what Christians are obligated to follow because they are reflection of God‘s nature and do not change. The ritual law was contingent on the existence of both the temple and as shadows of the coming Messiah, while the judicial we’re standards for the theocracy of Israel exclusively and not to be imposed on other nations.
Anyway, what’s the problem with being a hypocrite in your worldview? Who cares if a colony of worthless bacteria, a freak accident of chaotic chance, is unable to hold itself to its own perceived standards? Does your favorite ha ha funny comedian have a quote answering for that?
I didn't know that about the laws, thank you for correcting me.
I am thankful that Christians are hypocrites. I wouldn't want to live in a world where they weren't. I'm not complaining, just pointing it out.
We are molecular machines, sure, but that doesn't mean we don't have empathy. Empathy is a survival trait, it encourages us to cooperate and to avoid harming ourselves when we see someone else get hurt - it increases our chances of survival and thus is more likely to get passed down.
We aren't worthless because value is inherently a human concept. But I value you because the chemicals in my brain make me, not because some spirit is controlling me.
Wow. Bitter.
Your empathy explanation doesn’t work for the same reason do you said that the chemicals in your brain make you value someone.
If we are merely pre-programmed robots being pushed around by chemicals interacting in our brain, then you don’t TRULY care for someone’s life, values or dignity. It’s pure instinct controlling you, and this “empathy“ you’re referring to is nothing more than a video game AI.
Your SpongeBob SquarePants quote said he wanted to do no rape or killing, but hes speaking only for himself. The thing is, There ARE people out there who are dangerous, who rape and kill and are utterly sociopathic dangers. They’re more common than you would imagine, so they’re not random mutations .Being able to overcome this artificially enforced empathy (in your worldview) in this case is to unlock your true potential, there’s a reason sociopaths make it to the very top of historical historical social ladder. There’s a reason history has been so violent, savage and horrific, there’s a reason why it’s a coinflip to see if you’re the descendent of Genghis Khan.
Anyway I’m still interested that you justifying why it’s a bad thing to be a hypocrite in your worldview since you made a big fuss about it. There’s no inherent loss or problem if you say one thing and do another in your world, functionally your brain chemistry is forcing the hypocrite into behaving like a hypocrite, it’s not his own fault in your worldview, his preprogrammed AI is forcing him to do so against his will and desires.
Likewise there’s a problem, since you are fizzing towards atheism against your own consent and control, and I am fizzing them towards religion and hypocrisy, then how can you yourself not be a hypocrite by calling one a hypocrite, as we are both victims of our own biological natures, utterly powerless to not be hypocrites? What exactly then, is the problem of a Catholic priest molesting a child in your worldview, if the man is merely dictated by the fate written in his genes to behave the way he does? Not that it really matters in the end, what with us been chemicals and bacteria on a dying speck of dust, and all that jazz.
If God knows the future then free will is just an illusion anyway, since it would have to be pre-determined. That also would mean that anyone who goes to hell was created by him to do so.
And yes, we are a product of our experiences. The choices I will make aren't exactly pre-determined but I will not have a real choice when it comes to make them. My choices (and yours) will always be a result of who I am due to the things I have experienced and my ability to retain and process information. We are all slaves to this, like it or not. The consciousness you feel is a comforting illusion of control. I think of our consciousness as the OS layer of a computer - we aren't aware of most of the things that are going on, we get a very abstracted view that is carefully constructed by the inaccessible parts of our brain.
I am providing an experience that can result in a change in you. If your mind is changed it will not be your choice; either my arguments are convincing and instill doubt, or they don't. I am "preprogrammed" for empathy, and I have good reason to believe that life without believing in gods is better for everyone. I have very good reasons to believe that faith is a flaw in thinking that is used to justify atrocities, which is why I'm willing to debate. It may also not be just for you but for someone else reading this thread.
It matters because I think it does. If our brains weren't around to think and feel, nothing would matter. Sure, I believe that death is final. Consciously, I don't fear death because I know my brain will not be functioning to experience it. Subconscious natural drives make me want to survive, whether I like it or not. I do not believe in a spirit but I do believe in having a lasting effect on those still living. That's why it matters to me that I leave the world a better place than I found it. That's why I care about preventing child rape.
1st point: A god existing out of time and space doesn't preclude that free will doesn't exist. Certainly there are branches of Christianity that are fatalist in their view like Calvinists, but I'm of the Armenian philosophy that God isn't just capable of viewing the future, he's able to view all possible futures and all possible realities. God's sovereignty is total but he reigns it back within the context of creation allowing time to be contingent on the behaviors and decisions of mankind, as one of the major precepts of Christianity is that mankind is given free reign to behave as we will. It's a hands-off approach, but you're still playing chess against the greatest chess player in reality. So no, I don't agree with your premise on per-determinism, we approach reality from two different angles: I that you are responsible for your own behaviors, and you, that you are not.
As for your second response, I find it curious that you recognize that you're not truly conscious nor have free-will, yet you still continue to behave like you do. You name yourself AtheistTrumper, which precludes that you find some sort of comfort and joy in opposition to the notion of anything existing outside of the material universe. I mean, you shitpost on the internet, you visit hobbies that interest you, and generally live your life in a way opposite of the perspective you claim to hold.
Here's what's funny: you talk as though empathy is something to be proud of. As a Christian, I can appreciate one person being able to empathize and comfort another, but understand my point:
One second you're talking about how you're not in control of your behavior, and in another, you espouse the virtue of you having empathy. Why? You're not REALLY empathetic. You have no virtue called empathy. You react fatalistically to the dance of your genetics, there's nothing virtuous about your behavior in your worldview, you can't control it nor can you help it, just like you can't control or help that you're an Atheist. You're a slave to your genes. You're not truly helping people or changing minds, you're exchanging packets of data from one biological computer to another. You're literally doing nothing in your life to help another human being for as long as you have lived... But you boast of empathy. like you're proud of it. Hmm.
What you're doing is your stealing from me. You're stealing from a theistic worldview. You pretend to be a fatalistic beep-boop machine when you have a philosophical need for it, no doubt when you engage with theists and you want to shit all over them... Yet I know that you live your life every day like your life matters, and the lives of the people around you matter. You likely love your wife and your children, your friends and your family, and that love is genuine and real. When your wife tells you she loves you, you don't respond with, "You stupid bitch, you don't really love me, that's just saratonin receptors going off in your brain flooding your nervous system with chemicals, you don't love me and I don't love you, because love is a made-up concept". I know you don't act like that. Why not? Because you're stealing from God every day and living your life as if you mattered and you and the people you're "empathetic" to have intrinisc and infinite value, like the Christian believes you do.
Were you actually consistent your materialistic worldview, you'd sink into an inescapable depression and end your life over the futility of struggling against your own nature. Why bother continuing in a "comforting illusion of control" to quote you? Why live a lie, and try to get others to recognize that they're also living a lie? Why bother leaving the world in a better place, like you're advocating? In atheism, your entire existence is a cage, there's no point in persisting in a universe that is soon going to achieve permanent heat death, all your actions will be utterly forgotten and completely meaningless, and when you die, there's nothing but eternal silence.
And yet, you're on this board yelling at Joe Biden. You're talking politics here, and you've got hobbies and friends and a life outside of here. If you were consistent and weren't stealing from God every day of your life, you wouldn't even be engaging in debate like you believed truth and reason are something important, valuable and real.
As for your point on ethics in the naturalistic worldview: So what?
No, I mean it.
So fucking what?
Do you realize how flimsy your position is? Your position is ultimately reducible to "we should be good because I like it". The problem is that with this you can literally change ethics by changing your mind.
Just a little justification, and suddenly, that child rape or cannibalism or incest isn't wrong any more. Oh, certainly some people won't approve of it, but there's nothing objectively immoral about it, yeah?
Oh, but God? God is totally evil. He's a tyrant, in your own words. Just because those people over there approve of God doesn't mean he's not, god is objectively immoral.
You're holding to a complete double standard and your entire theological philosophy is a bungled mess.
Finally, it seems like you're dodging my question about hypocrisy. That was my one question to you, and this is my third time asking for you to account for that, so please get on that, because you're dodging: Justify why one person's brain chemistry fizzing towards Atheism and another person is fizzing towards Theism are to be held to notions like truthfulness, objectivity and consistency, and how in your worldview a child predators brain fizzing towards kids is something that he's responsible for. Maybe then we can talk about how a Christian reacts to hypocrisy, because SPOILER: Christianity is all about recognizing your own hypocrisy. That'd be a fun topic.
Wow. Bitter.
Your empathy explanation doesn’t work for the same reason do you said that the chemicals in your brain make you value someone.
If we are merely pre-programmed robots being pushed around by chemicals interacting in our brain, then you don’t TRULY care for someone’s life, values or dignity. It’s pure instinct controlling you, and this “empathy“ you’re referring to is nothing more than a video game AI.
Your SpongeBob SquarePants quote said he wanted to do no rape or killing, but hes speaking only for himself. The thing is, There ARE people out there who are dangerous, who rape and kill and are utterly sociopathic dangers. They’re more common than you would imagine, so they’re not random mutations .Being able to overcome this artificially enforced empathy (in your worldview) in this case is to unlock your true potential, there’s a reason sociopaths make it to the very top of historical historical social ladder. There’s a reason history has been so violent, savage and horrific, there’s a reason why it’s a coinflip to see if you’re the descendent of Genghis Khan.
Anyway I’m still interested that you justifying why it’s a bad thing to be a hypocrite in your worldview since you made a big fuss about it. There’s no inherent loss or problem if you say one thing and do another in your world, functionally your brain chemistry is forcing the hypocrite into behaving like a hypocrite, it’s not his own fault in your worldview, his preprogrammed AI is forcing him to do so against his will and desires.
Likewise there’s a problem, since you are fizzing towards atheism against your own consent and control, and I am fizzing them towards religion and hypocrisy, then how can you yourself not be a hypocrite by calling one a hypocrite, as we are both victims of our own biological natures, utterly powerless to not be hypocrites? What exactly then, is the problem of a Catholic priest molesting a child in your worldview, if the man is merely dictated by the feet written in his jeans to behave the way he does? Not that it really matters in the end, what with us been chemicals and bacteria on a dying speck of dust, and all that jazz.