"for their own freedom..." To own slaves, dumbass. That's not a "freedom" you get to have. Zero respect for anyone who fought for that. Fuck 'em.
And I didn't "boil it down to merely a race issue;" it was SLAVERY, dumbass. Not "race." I merely pointed out the truth, which so many pathetic southerners seem committed to cognitive dissonance about: they fought to preserve slavery and were willing to end the U.S. over it. REGARDLESS of whether you think that's true or not, there's NO QUESTION that THAT flag is the Confederate Battle Flag, was CREATED as the Confederate Battle Flag, and that the Confederacy surrendered. I.e., the perfectly fucking obvious: THAT flag is the symbol of an ENEMY of the U.S. and a vanquished foe. You want to carry it at a reenactment? Great. You want to put it in a history museum? Also great. You want to wear/display it to "honor" it? Fuck you - it's no better and, in fact, worse than the people who fly/wear the flags of other countries (unless they're historical countries that were ALSO our enemies) - it represents a failure to embrace the ideological premise upon which the United States is based. Namely, that we are unified not by our race, or our religion, or even our geography, but by our ideals. It's been almost 160 years; there's nobody alive now who was alive in the Civil War. They don't have "habits," they have adopted culture. And, lastly, the Union fought to preserve the U.S., not to "keep" the South; their surrender meant they were supposed to reconcile with being American, first, not "southern" IN America. There is no room for divided loyalty; divided loyalty produces factionalism and weakness.
You're right. Factionalism and divided loyalty should not be allowed. Every morning all USA citizens must declare their complete and undying love and loyalty to our Dear Leader, Resident Biden, for he occupies the holy office which Abe Lincoln and others have won many wars from. From now on, we shall tell all those with divided loyalty to go fuck themselves. They shall be censored and obliterated from public life. They shall be removed from the military. Any disloyal countrymen, women, and children shall then be rounded up and taken to reeducation camps because we have no room for divided loyalty, or dissent of any kind, because that would run the risk of producing factionalism and weakness. Diversity is our strength, and if you won't fall in line with that then we cannot tolerate you and you shall be sent to the gas chambers. As for all the dissenters, fuck 'em.
How about trying it this simpler way: that flag is the flag of an enemy of the U.S. defeated in 1865. Let it go, mouth-breather. It isn't honorable. It doesn't mean something other than support for secessionist states trying to preserve slavery of other human beings. It wasn't your fight then, it isn't your fight now, and it doesn't have fuck all to do with Biden or the current time period. It's like a guy who can't get over somebody else's former girlfriend, which is to say, impotent and pathetic. That flag NEVER represented the U.S. or U.S. values intrinsic to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution - not then, not now. Pretending that it did is ignorant and immoral, and your retard story-time doesn't change that. How about getting on the fucking defending the U.S. train instead of obsessing over 170-year old bullshit?
They weren't "willing to end the US", they just wanted to leave the abuses of the national government behind them. But the north couldn't let that happen because they relied on them for many strategic and economic reasons.
You are so wrong on so many points. Seriously, you should read about history. You are way off in many ways. And you show so little compassion for people. There wasn't a nation in the world who denounced slavery at the get go until very recently. And there are more slaves today than ever before in history. One great example is at the border today. And this strong national government you talk of which shall tolerate no factionalism has done such a great job of defending that with the current administration, right?
People talk about slavery like it was always known to be this unconscionable, unforgivable evil. And yet, the war wasn't fought by Union to annihilate all the slave traders... it was fought to keep the seceding states under one united country. Out of this move have arisen many of the political problems that we are dealing with today.
For fuck's sake; I gave you the link; read Jefferson Davis' OWN statement. Then try to tell me again how you know better than the President of the Fucking Confederate States what his motivation was.
Again, I HAVE read history. Extensively. Not a fucking article by a guy trying to parlay it into a criticism of Trump over tariffs, but real, actual scholars judged on the QUALITY of their work, not the quantity. "He's prolific!" Well, jumping off a cliff is "efficient," but that's not the best metric to asses alternatives to descend.
You appear to be a fucking idiot, repeatedly making claims like "you show so little compassion for people" (seriously; WHO have I talked about other other than people clinging to that fucking flag and the delusion that the civil war was about anything more than it was about slavery, and the south's desire to sustain and propagate it?).
"There wasn't a nation in the world who denounced slavery at the get go until very recently." Uh, wut? In what retard-land is that a coherent fucking sentence? Jefferson tried to put an anti-slavery statement into the Declaration of Independence, almost 90 years before the Civil War. They KNEW it was wrong. I'm not blaming the U.S. for having slavery; it was here before the U.S. was formed. It persisted, world-wide, after the U.S. was formed. But, unlike other countries, it was in conflict with our stated and founding values regarding the rights of man. And it's delusion to suggest otherwise.
And, what EXACTLY is your fucking point, jumping from the 1860s and the south's motivation to "the current administration?" What kind of fucking retard-logic is that? "Duhhhh - Biden, so Rebel Flag!!!!" I mean, seriously: what the fuck?
"People talk about slavery like it was always known to be this unconscionable, unforgivable evil. And yet, the war wasn't fought by Union to annihilate all the slave traders... it was fought to keep the seceding states under one united country. Out of this move have arisen many of the political problems that we are dealing with today."
WHAT PEOPLE, retard? WHAT "PEOPLE" are those? They CERTAINLY knew in 1776! "We hold these truths to be self-evident" is pretty fucking clear! And, yet a-fucking-gain: THE WAR WAS FOUGHT BECAUSE THE SOUTH STARTED THE FUCKING WAR (Lincoln wins, SC legislature passes Ordinance of Secession, SC starts seizing military bases, then MS, FL, AL, GA, and LA join them, fires on Ft. Sumter. Period, end of story.). AND WHY DID THEY START THE FUCKING WAR, FOR FUCK'S SAKE? It's RIGHT FUCKING HERE(http://www.historianstevecampbell.com/uploads/4/4/6/5/44657359/south_carolina_ordinance_of_secession_1860.pdf), you IGNORANT FUCK. Stop telling ME to learn history and read the fucking original sources; see if you can find the fucking word "tax" or "taxes" or "taxation" in it. Good luck. But you'll find a whole BUNCH of "slave," and "slavery" in it. Because THAT is why they went to war. You want it to be more nuanced. You NEED it to be more nuanced. But it ISN'T more nuanced. Wealthy southern landowners and slaveholders controlled the political power in the south and they didn't want to give up slaves. Period. End of fucking story. Sorry: they were assholes. They got a lot of people killed. But again, more to the point, THEY FUCKING LOST. THAT flag is the flag of fucking traitors and the flag of a vanquished foe, it has no business on any staff in this country and if it was on fire, I wouldn't piss on it to put it out.
Your cognitive dissonance is painful, and a waste of my time. Read the original sources. You're ignorant and you're adamant about it.
I skimmed through your bullshit. All men are created equal was about the monarchy. The men who wrote that owned slaves.
I don't need it to be nuanced or not. You need to oversimplify it so your hyper emotional pea brain can understand it. It's a shame you've let your hatred of other men get in the way of your understanding of history.
LOL. My "pea brain?" I'm in the 150s, you fucking moron, and "skimming" seems like a charitable description of your abilities.
"All men are created equal" was about John Locke, FROM John Locke's Second Treatise, repeated in the Declaration authored by Jefferson and edited by the committee of five, and about Locke's expressed theory of natural rights. The monarchy:subject dynamic was ONE application of the theory of natural rights, not either its origin or terminus, and of those men, which neither disavowed nor spoke, nor worked against slavery, having concluded it was immoral?
I'm oversimplifying FOR YOU, and I have no "hatred of other men," but I can't fucking stand bullies, frauds, and idiots, which turns out to comprise a not-insignificant portion of the population, present company included.
Again, just to be clear: fuck that flag and anyone who honors it, and especially anyone who engages is panty-pissing apologia about what that flag represented or the flagbearers engaged in war for.
An important part of our freedom in the USA is to fly any flag we want. You ought to take a highlighter and go through your bullshit and highlight how much of it is your own damned opinion, which probably no one gives a rat's ass about.
Nobody said you can't fly it. I said you're an asshole if you do. Isn't an "important part of our freedom in the USA" also freedom of speech? There you go: I just used mine. I don't need a highlighter, and read it, don't read it, care, don't care - I don't give a fuck. But if you embrace that flag and what it stood for, you're a fucking asshole, plain and simple. Some fucking dipwat posted divisive, factional, anachronistic bullshit HERE, on social fucking media, and here is where I'm responding to it. You're offended; fuck your offense. Your feelings are hurt; fuck your feelings. Facts don't care about your fucking feelings. Nothing can change it and you can hate me all you want for pointing it out, but deep down, you know it's true. They were slaveholders defending slaveholding and they got what was coming to them. Lincoln correctly (for the sake of the country) and mercifully (because he was a humanist) chose reconciliation, but both were predicated on the south giving up their bullshit. And yet, the bullshit persists. Your bullshit persists. To the degree you persist in bullshit, you weaken the nation. Congrats - you're THAT asshole.
Many generations of my family are from the South and many of my friends' families as well. I am not aware of anyone in my own ancestry who had anything to do with slavery.
We are part of the US and have been for many generations.
Your federalist rhetoric is not constitutionally founded.
"No room for divided loyalty" you say.
The founding documents of the nation of which you speak (USA) are written such that I have every right duty and ability tol protect myself and my family over any fucked up national government.
"for their own freedom..." To own slaves, dumbass. That's not a "freedom" you get to have. Zero respect for anyone who fought for that. Fuck 'em.
And I didn't "boil it down to merely a race issue;" it was SLAVERY, dumbass. Not "race." I merely pointed out the truth, which so many pathetic southerners seem committed to cognitive dissonance about: they fought to preserve slavery and were willing to end the U.S. over it. REGARDLESS of whether you think that's true or not, there's NO QUESTION that THAT flag is the Confederate Battle Flag, was CREATED as the Confederate Battle Flag, and that the Confederacy surrendered. I.e., the perfectly fucking obvious: THAT flag is the symbol of an ENEMY of the U.S. and a vanquished foe. You want to carry it at a reenactment? Great. You want to put it in a history museum? Also great. You want to wear/display it to "honor" it? Fuck you - it's no better and, in fact, worse than the people who fly/wear the flags of other countries (unless they're historical countries that were ALSO our enemies) - it represents a failure to embrace the ideological premise upon which the United States is based. Namely, that we are unified not by our race, or our religion, or even our geography, but by our ideals. It's been almost 160 years; there's nobody alive now who was alive in the Civil War. They don't have "habits," they have adopted culture. And, lastly, the Union fought to preserve the U.S., not to "keep" the South; their surrender meant they were supposed to reconcile with being American, first, not "southern" IN America. There is no room for divided loyalty; divided loyalty produces factionalism and weakness.
Let me try it this way.
You're right. Factionalism and divided loyalty should not be allowed. Every morning all USA citizens must declare their complete and undying love and loyalty to our Dear Leader, Resident Biden, for he occupies the holy office which Abe Lincoln and others have won many wars from. From now on, we shall tell all those with divided loyalty to go fuck themselves. They shall be censored and obliterated from public life. They shall be removed from the military. Any disloyal countrymen, women, and children shall then be rounded up and taken to reeducation camps because we have no room for divided loyalty, or dissent of any kind, because that would run the risk of producing factionalism and weakness. Diversity is our strength, and if you won't fall in line with that then we cannot tolerate you and you shall be sent to the gas chambers. As for all the dissenters, fuck 'em.
How about trying it this simpler way: that flag is the flag of an enemy of the U.S. defeated in 1865. Let it go, mouth-breather. It isn't honorable. It doesn't mean something other than support for secessionist states trying to preserve slavery of other human beings. It wasn't your fight then, it isn't your fight now, and it doesn't have fuck all to do with Biden or the current time period. It's like a guy who can't get over somebody else's former girlfriend, which is to say, impotent and pathetic. That flag NEVER represented the U.S. or U.S. values intrinsic to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution - not then, not now. Pretending that it did is ignorant and immoral, and your retard story-time doesn't change that. How about getting on the fucking defending the U.S. train instead of obsessing over 170-year old bullshit?
What's your address?
They weren't "willing to end the US", they just wanted to leave the abuses of the national government behind them. But the north couldn't let that happen because they relied on them for many strategic and economic reasons.
You are so wrong on so many points. Seriously, you should read about history. You are way off in many ways. And you show so little compassion for people. There wasn't a nation in the world who denounced slavery at the get go until very recently. And there are more slaves today than ever before in history. One great example is at the border today. And this strong national government you talk of which shall tolerate no factionalism has done such a great job of defending that with the current administration, right?
People talk about slavery like it was always known to be this unconscionable, unforgivable evil. And yet, the war wasn't fought by Union to annihilate all the slave traders... it was fought to keep the seceding states under one united country. Out of this move have arisen many of the political problems that we are dealing with today.
For fuck's sake; I gave you the link; read Jefferson Davis' OWN statement. Then try to tell me again how you know better than the President of the Fucking Confederate States what his motivation was.
Again, I HAVE read history. Extensively. Not a fucking article by a guy trying to parlay it into a criticism of Trump over tariffs, but real, actual scholars judged on the QUALITY of their work, not the quantity. "He's prolific!" Well, jumping off a cliff is "efficient," but that's not the best metric to asses alternatives to descend.
You appear to be a fucking idiot, repeatedly making claims like "you show so little compassion for people" (seriously; WHO have I talked about other other than people clinging to that fucking flag and the delusion that the civil war was about anything more than it was about slavery, and the south's desire to sustain and propagate it?).
"There wasn't a nation in the world who denounced slavery at the get go until very recently." Uh, wut? In what retard-land is that a coherent fucking sentence? Jefferson tried to put an anti-slavery statement into the Declaration of Independence, almost 90 years before the Civil War. They KNEW it was wrong. I'm not blaming the U.S. for having slavery; it was here before the U.S. was formed. It persisted, world-wide, after the U.S. was formed. But, unlike other countries, it was in conflict with our stated and founding values regarding the rights of man. And it's delusion to suggest otherwise.
And, what EXACTLY is your fucking point, jumping from the 1860s and the south's motivation to "the current administration?" What kind of fucking retard-logic is that? "Duhhhh - Biden, so Rebel Flag!!!!" I mean, seriously: what the fuck?
"People talk about slavery like it was always known to be this unconscionable, unforgivable evil. And yet, the war wasn't fought by Union to annihilate all the slave traders... it was fought to keep the seceding states under one united country. Out of this move have arisen many of the political problems that we are dealing with today."
WHAT PEOPLE, retard? WHAT "PEOPLE" are those? They CERTAINLY knew in 1776! "We hold these truths to be self-evident" is pretty fucking clear! And, yet a-fucking-gain: THE WAR WAS FOUGHT BECAUSE THE SOUTH STARTED THE FUCKING WAR (Lincoln wins, SC legislature passes Ordinance of Secession, SC starts seizing military bases, then MS, FL, AL, GA, and LA join them, fires on Ft. Sumter. Period, end of story.). AND WHY DID THEY START THE FUCKING WAR, FOR FUCK'S SAKE? It's RIGHT FUCKING HERE(http://www.historianstevecampbell.com/uploads/4/4/6/5/44657359/south_carolina_ordinance_of_secession_1860.pdf), you IGNORANT FUCK. Stop telling ME to learn history and read the fucking original sources; see if you can find the fucking word "tax" or "taxes" or "taxation" in it. Good luck. But you'll find a whole BUNCH of "slave," and "slavery" in it. Because THAT is why they went to war. You want it to be more nuanced. You NEED it to be more nuanced. But it ISN'T more nuanced. Wealthy southern landowners and slaveholders controlled the political power in the south and they didn't want to give up slaves. Period. End of fucking story. Sorry: they were assholes. They got a lot of people killed. But again, more to the point, THEY FUCKING LOST. THAT flag is the flag of fucking traitors and the flag of a vanquished foe, it has no business on any staff in this country and if it was on fire, I wouldn't piss on it to put it out.
Your cognitive dissonance is painful, and a waste of my time. Read the original sources. You're ignorant and you're adamant about it.
I"m not even gonna read this. You are a rude idiot incapable of civil discourse.
I skimmed through your bullshit. All men are created equal was about the monarchy. The men who wrote that owned slaves.
I don't need it to be nuanced or not. You need to oversimplify it so your hyper emotional pea brain can understand it. It's a shame you've let your hatred of other men get in the way of your understanding of history.
LOL. My "pea brain?" I'm in the 150s, you fucking moron, and "skimming" seems like a charitable description of your abilities.
"All men are created equal" was about John Locke, FROM John Locke's Second Treatise, repeated in the Declaration authored by Jefferson and edited by the committee of five, and about Locke's expressed theory of natural rights. The monarchy:subject dynamic was ONE application of the theory of natural rights, not either its origin or terminus, and of those men, which neither disavowed nor spoke, nor worked against slavery, having concluded it was immoral?
I'm oversimplifying FOR YOU, and I have no "hatred of other men," but I can't fucking stand bullies, frauds, and idiots, which turns out to comprise a not-insignificant portion of the population, present company included.
Again, just to be clear: fuck that flag and anyone who honors it, and especially anyone who engages is panty-pissing apologia about what that flag represented or the flagbearers engaged in war for.
An important part of our freedom in the USA is to fly any flag we want. You ought to take a highlighter and go through your bullshit and highlight how much of it is your own damned opinion, which probably no one gives a rat's ass about.
Nobody said you can't fly it. I said you're an asshole if you do. Isn't an "important part of our freedom in the USA" also freedom of speech? There you go: I just used mine. I don't need a highlighter, and read it, don't read it, care, don't care - I don't give a fuck. But if you embrace that flag and what it stood for, you're a fucking asshole, plain and simple. Some fucking dipwat posted divisive, factional, anachronistic bullshit HERE, on social fucking media, and here is where I'm responding to it. You're offended; fuck your offense. Your feelings are hurt; fuck your feelings. Facts don't care about your fucking feelings. Nothing can change it and you can hate me all you want for pointing it out, but deep down, you know it's true. They were slaveholders defending slaveholding and they got what was coming to them. Lincoln correctly (for the sake of the country) and mercifully (because he was a humanist) chose reconciliation, but both were predicated on the south giving up their bullshit. And yet, the bullshit persists. Your bullshit persists. To the degree you persist in bullshit, you weaken the nation. Congrats - you're THAT asshole.
You've put so many words in my mouth it's foolish to continue here. You're not talking to me. You're talking to yourself.
Many generations of my family are from the South and many of my friends' families as well. I am not aware of anyone in my own ancestry who had anything to do with slavery.
We are part of the US and have been for many generations.
Your federalist rhetoric is not constitutionally founded.
"No room for divided loyalty" you say.
The founding documents of the nation of which you speak (USA) are written such that I have every right duty and ability tol protect myself and my family over any fucked up national government.
Have a good day