That just means it will do a worse job and break much sooner. I find used quality stuff and do repairs as necessary. Same with cars. I have a 2004 Suburban because it doesn't have AFM/DFM attached to the 5.3 V8. Those fuel management systems don't get you better mileage, they get you a nice oil leak pre 100k miles. All of this energy efficient trash is a monumental scam.
That's why old 4 cylinder Toyota Tacoma are so sought after. They drive forever with minimal care wheras the new Tacoma break down because they have so much h electronic shit.
Build coal plants and DON'T put waste into the rivers. The CO2 is actually greening the planet. There are now more trees than at any point in history. The Amazon is flourishing once again when it was said to be doomed.
I could care less about the CO2 but the coal plants put Mercury in to the ocean which is pretty terrible. The soot causes other world wide problems as well.
"There are now more trees than at any point in history."
Where's your source on that claim?
Not that I believe we can count the number of trees on earth any better than stars in the universe but I see reports/studies showing there are about half as many trees now as there were around 12,000 years ago.
Also the electricity is probably produced by gas. So you burn gas somewhere else, just to turn it into heat somewhere else.
I get that heat pumps are "more effecent when you are trying to warm from 40 to 65, but factor in losses and colder weather and it just doesn't make sense.
Gas is still cheaper than nuclear power
when considering the infrastructure and maintenance and the cost of disasters which strike every nuke plant in the long run
modern reactors are incapable of meltdowns. the cost is due to massive overregulation not actual construction. nuclear produces a massive amount of cheap clean energy and not using it is utterly retarded at this point
LOL Do you know what forum you're on?
Check UnsinkableTitanic.hah
But there are problems other than meltdowns which affect nuclear energy. Waste seep, broken water pipes (one just this past week, actually ... spilled hundreds of thousands of gallons of water with radioactive particles and will affect well water for thousands of miles....people, livestock, )
The tritium leak is a none issue.
You'd get more Rads living next to a coal power plant.
The amount of contaminated water was about half an Olympic pools worth, a drop in the bucket of a river.
None made it into the drinking water.
Tritium radiation can't even penetrate the layer of dead skin you have over your body.
You probably get more Rads breathing in random radon from the rocks and water near your home.
Lol. The second you brought ho nuclear waste you lost the argument. Sorry bud. Maybe youtube Kyle Hill and let him tell you in layman's terms just how wrong you are
Since the USA became a corporatocracy. Which it has been for a very long time. They are just extra emboldened since the presidential coup to say the quiet parts out load all the time now.
And since they're all technically public service announcements informing people to 'get their covid vaccinations', they're not advertising a specific drug, therefore they're not obligated to include the possible side effects. Like all the skin rash drugs that have the micro machines guy ramble on and on all the horrible shit it can do to you at the end of the add.
Modern heat pumps (which aren't sold by most US HVAC companies) are actually efficient down to very low temperatures, well below freezing. And any good install should have a fallback to resistance or gas heat.
Got a heat pump installed with my AC system this year. I live in the middle of the woods in a 2 acre lot. I also put in an efficient wood burning stove with a catalyst. Nice 28% tax credit on that bad boy. I have fuel for the rest of my life. The stove di
Does the main heating of the house over the winter and in thus scenario the heat pump is supplemental. It kicks on maybe around 3am and handles heating until I get out of bed and get the fire going again between 6-7am.
I'm looking at something similar when we build our hobby farm. A wood stove will provide a lot of heat, but planning for radiant floors fed by a geothermal exchanger.
Good heat pumps are like good refrigerators. Assuming you have quality line sets and fittings (no slow leaks in the refrigeration lines between indoor and outdoor units), they will run for decades.
That's a false assumption. The linesets are underbuilt for the high pressure refrigerants they keep foisting on us. If we were allowed to use R-12, then yes the heat pumps would run for decades like a 50s refrigerator. But R-410a and it's newer higher pressure replacement are fucking everyone in the ass.
Around here, installers cut off the fittings from the brand new line sets and put on nuts that are at least twice as heavy, re-flare the tubes and torque them up. They complain that the cheap connectors pre-installed on the insulate line sets break all by themselves.
It can, but when it does it's fixable by any electrician or plumber, and it doesn't necessitate replacement of the whole system. Ever try finding and brazing a lineset leak in an A-coil?
Not really. There's no moving parts, it's just a set of metal plates connected to the power line with a wire nut.
Only thing that could break spontaneously is the thermostat. Which is unlikely if it's a simple analog one; they can last 50+ years no problem. Even that is fixable on your own with some common sense or by watching a couple youtube videos.
But yes repairing heat pumps are a lot more involved and require specialized equipment. Often not even worth the cost of labor and if it's old you're better off buying a new one with the newer refrigerants.
A better product would be a trans-critical CO2 unit, or "eco cute" like you have in Japan.
Many manufactures don't service the US market with specialty products because of California's bullshit regulatory nightmare. Daikin Altherma air-to-water was a good example. They want a single model that they can sell in all states, not just some of them.
There are many good brands. Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, Panasonic, Daikin from Japan and Gree from China. Gree makes millions of units that get rebranded. China will likely dominate in the future.
Well, do you recommend just going with the typical unit replacement or going DIY by someone with nearly zero electrical knowledge? Or are there install companies around Gainesville Fl that might have access to various products?
You can do most of DIY, especially for ductless. Inside you need to drill a three inch hole, screw on a plate and hang the head unit. There are lots of good videos of this.
The electrical is a single 220V feed from the main panel to a disconnect outside, near the outdoor unit. if you use Teck cable, you can avoid bothering with conduit. Most careful DIY types can do this -- as evidenced by the huge quantity of breakers and wire that Home Depot sells (as well as a nice Home Depot wiring book).
The refrigeration lines are a different matter. You could run the copper lines yourself and hook them up, but you probably don't want to own a gauge/line set and vacuum pump.
You could do the install but hire a HVAC technician by the hour to check the fittings, evacuate the unit, attach the power from the disconnect to the heat pump, and start it up. That might be $400 or less. You could also get someone authorized to sell that brand of heat pump which might be valuable if you ever need warranty service.
You could also install the electrical wiring to the disconnect and main panel, and let an electrician charge you an hour to hook it up (plus get the electrical permit).
Towns are getting pickier with regulations on heat pumps. Many will want an electrical permit and perhaps demand the heat pump installer be licensed, and demand a building permit and insist it be in the back of the house and not the side, and perhaps up your property value for tax purposes.
I wouldn't recommend a DYI install unless you like doing it yourself.
Make sure you drill the head unit backing plate into studs too
Vaccuming also isn't that hard if you watch a video on it but he would probably have no understanding of microns of what he's actually doing like removing moisture from the lines
Until recently, most technicians would just put the vacuum pump on and go for lunch.
Better technicians would pressure test the lines first, then pull a vacuum using a digital manometer, lubricate flares with POE oil, use a torque wrench etc.
I have a vacuum pump and have and adapter for a quart mason jar. If I get a watch or phone wet, I put in in the jar and watch the water boil off. I could probably make a really nice food dehydrator this way too.
Your local HVAC companies probably just install what they have available from the companies they're affiliated with.
Unfortunately, comparing units by SEER ratings is hard because it doesn't call out the critical factor in making heat pump choices: Performance at cold temperatures. But check out this list of units and sort by Coefficient of Performance at 5 degrees Fahrenheit: https://ashp.neep.org/#!/product_list/
It bottoms out at a COP of 1.5, where you find typical American HVAC names like Trane, American Standard, and Carrier. The details for units here show that they struggle to keep up as temperatures approach freezing, and below freezing a unit sized appropriately for the house will fail to keep up and will cost more trying. Even in most of the southern US these would fall back to expensive emergency heat coils for a significant portion of the year. That's the situation I'm in now, where below 50F I can hardly tell that the air from the vents is warm and I run a gas heater to make up the difference.
But at the top end units have a COP over 3, and those things are still pumping out hot air at 100% efficiency well below freezing. The names here make a sea of Japanese and European mini-split ("non-ducted") units (and a few rebadges with American names)... but for single-zone setups, there's nothing special about mini-splits that actually contribute to this efficiency. It's just that Japan and Europe are standardized on mini-splits for residential installs, and there's actually competition in that space.
Here in the US, our typical manufacturers are still selling units with decades-old technology, because what incentive is there to change? There's little real outside competition. Your HVAC guy is probably affiliated with a single company, only has experience with ducted installs, and isn't trying to raise eyebrows with homeowners by trying to sell them on some weird foreign thing that puts a pod in every room. Architects design for ducted units, anyway. And both the manufacturer and the HVAC guys benefit from selling you a separate air conditioner and furnace even if you aren't at a latitude that would otherwise require. It may not be predatory. It's just what they've done for decades.
Fortunately, competition is starting to happen here. If you scroll down far enough, you can find that Carrier has ducted a few ducted models with a COP above 3 (their "Performance" series). Fortunately for me, my HVAC guy is sells Carrier. He's advised me to wait until the new refrigerant regulations go into place before buying, but that's what I have my eyes on. With one of those at my location, the heating coils may never turn on some years, and if they do it might be for a couple of nights for a couple of hours total.
Excellent information, especially the new regulations part. Thank you!
I’m going to have to re read twice. I think because I don’t understand what emergency coils are I’m not understanding what is what but I can commie google it.
"Emergency coils" refers to the traditional electric heater coils that many heat pumps have for times when it's too cold for the heat pump to operate efficiently (or when the heat pump is out for some other reason).
You might also see it called "auxiliary heat". Some have gas burners instead of electric coils.
It's the unfortunate reality of physics that heat pumps have a harder time providing heat as it gets colder outside (less heat to pump!), so emergency heat will still be necessary in many cases. But these new units are so much more efficient that they can do the job most of the time for most people.
It's way more expensive to run off of the emergency heat, but as long as you only have to use it rarely, then a heat pump still ends up being a big win for saving costs on energy by handling most of the cold season.
Probably lack of insulation and air sealing. Crawling around with a can of foam and caulk gun will probably make all the difference in the world with a bit of attention to weatherstripping and insulation.
Could also be undersized, but that’s unlikely if it was chosen while working with someone competent for the installation.
This. I live as north as you can get and survived -20 temps this winter with the heat pumps still working fine and no issues heating the house. These things are rated for -15 to still produce heat, they just aren't as energy efficient at those temps. The bad thing is my power company upped my monthly electric bill by 100 bucks a month thanks to the potato.
I find the ductless models (10 years or older) are good to about -15C (+5F) and then the air out of them is luke warm. Each degree colder outside, is a degree colder for the heat from the register or indoor wall unit.
The newer cold climate heat pumps are much better, supposedly down to -25C or so.
However, if you get -25C or worse (-13F) then you'll have to switch heat sources.
As far as population goes, there's maybe 80,000,000 people that can't use a normal heat pump. A ground source heat pump can cost $30,000 to $50,000. to install.
Plus, relying on a single source of power forced on us by the Gov't, run by a monopoly basically controlled by the Gov't, is absolutely tyrannical.
These people are terrorizing people who can't afford those expenses. They should be charged w/ terrorism.
Ground source heat pumps never really made it in the home market. The cost of the underground well systems was just too high and the efficiency of air-to-air and air-to-water units improved greatly.
Most homes can use a heat pump, but cost is still an issue. You are looking at having to install three or four individual ductless units, or a central ducted unit, or a multi-split ductless -- and that is a serious investment. For many homes, I would guess $20,000 that they just don't have handy.
You can run a four zone ductless heat pump off a 20A circuit and a small diesel generator can give you light and heat.
I don't trust government intentions nor their competence. We could easily have extended power outages, grid failures, or some bullshit rate structure based on ESG scores. The more sources of heat the better. Propane stove and fireplace, diesel and gas generators, wood stove, heat pump, electric baseboards and more.
Pity the poor buggers in highrise condos in a large city when things get ugly.
Right now idiot Hochul in New York State is pushing legislation to FORCE EVERYONE exactly this, a ground source heat pump, and BANNING natural gas furnaces.
This is terrorizing millions of people in that state. Other states may due the same thing.
A friend of mine in the Northeast installed heat pumps, hoping to replace their oil fired boiler for heat. They found it works fine down to about 40° basically, spring and fall. For the winter, while it will produce heat when it gets down to the 20s, It’s not enough.
Yeah that is how they work. Your friend's HVAC person should have made sure there was a supplemental for when the temps get down lower. Again heat pumps aren't right for place with cold winters though IMO. Their best use is in places that stay above 40° in the winter time where you still need some heat.
Luckily, he had done his research, and kept the oil heat for the winter months and was actually advice so by the HVAC company. The biggest reason for getting it was the house was built in the 60s had hydronic baseboard heat, so a heat pump system was the least destructive way to add air conditioning.
I have one, in Missouri, it works alright, could be better. I previously had a 22 year old Rheem and a Hardy Wood Boiler, They worked better but did cost a bit more and was much more labor intensive.
A single head minisplit won't heat and cool an entire home. Larger systems can indeed replace an HVAC system, but it isn't cheap. Definitely $10,000+
I have a Daikin four zone heat pump that heats and cools the whole house. There are a few small bathrooms that have small baseboard heaters, but they are seldom on.
I have friends with floor heating using air-to-water heat pumps. They are warm in winter, heating is very cheap, but of course -- no cooling with floor heat.
Most new expensive homes have whole house, ducted heating and cooling using air to air heat pumps -- especially in areas where there is no natural gas.
Many new schools have geothermal heat pumps with air coils in every classroom. These work well too.
My 3 ton system works fine up in the mountains of PA. Has no issue keeping up unless temps dip below 10 degrees in my case. Cheaper than gas too. We do have an aux system for thoses really cold days which kicks in to supplement the heat from the heat pump, but modern pumps have no issues really. Just a very expensive technology.
heat pumps suck unless you live somewhere where the coldest it ever gets is like 50 degrees. Once it gets below 30, they just blow room temperature air in the house. If it gets below 20 they use electric heat strips that cost an insane amount of money to run
Has she not ever paid an electric bill? Those have skyrocketed as well, so you’re exchanging a higher gas bill for a higher electric bill. Bottom up middle out!
Limo liberals have no clue how actually poor people are living such as in Philly where many old row houses do not have any HVAC at all. I looked at buying a house that has an old radiator system still in very good condition and window units for the AC. The old radiators are still clean and tidy and very toasty. If I buy the house I won't get rid of them - just a new paint job. I'll likely just put in a free-standing central air unit with as few ducts and cuts as possible to the old gem of a house. Radiators are very cheap and keep the house very warm. So people having trouble paying that very cheap gas bill can't pay for or even use a "heat pump." It doesn't apply. It's like this cow has never been to a city where low or working class income people live. It's incredible.
People on EBT or electronic benefits transfer (aka welfare using an ATM card at stores that gets re-upped monthly) just got a big cut since the "pandemic benefits" ended this month. They are very sore.
The anger is palpable as you walk around. People look skinnier already from having their flat EBT payment get eaten away by inflation long before the cuts to the old pre-pandemic payout. Some people are engaging in petty theft, shoplifting. Cuts blindsided even honest people who are having church groups give seminars on cooking using cheap staples and such. People on welfare used to never have to cook in a generation, and now most do not know how. Grandma still cooks but she is the last one. Now if you don't cook, you do not have enough food for the month, and no one realized this until they had no money on the card but plenty of month left. If these kids who grew up on corner store quickie mart junk food and hoagies for dinner turn on a stove, they'll burn the house down.
Long story short, Biden and the Dems are hated. One reason the city "paid" the rioters from that bogus lawsuit is they are all on welfare and housing choice vouchers themselves, white and black, and it is not enough to live and not work. They are anti-work. So they needed to sue the city with the implied threat that any pol who did not pay them off faced more riots. It's bilking honest property tax payers as owners taxes just go up and up. So the "let them eat HVAC" Dems just have no clue that their useless schemes have no impact whatsoever on inflation or on the people or on the people most affected by it.
Yes. Let’s gut out the HVAC systems from 90+% of homes, that expense is something every home can afford! There won’t be backlog or spikes in materials at all! We will all just have free gay rainbow energy to power our homes for the 1 hour a day government allows us!
I’m wondering the same. Maybe that’s what we southerners call “air conditon” ?
Does the air handler have heat coils? I don’t know how these things works
Ah yeah, just let me run to the store and buy a few parts to replace my HVAC system. That's absoluely no financial problem for the great majority of middle class Americans stuck in a leftist inflationary era.
Oh, btw, $350 million more of your tax dollars just got greenlit for Ukraine.
I lived with a 'heat pump' in a colder climate and it is absolutely USELESS when it gets really cold. The damn thing ran on emergency electric heat most of the time and my electric bill was through the roof.
I just don't understand how so many people in the general public are so utterly fucking stupid they don't see how these people are completely fucking them over.
Heat pumps work at much higher rates than an AC added to a furnace. So uses more electricity you dumb bitch. Hell, the onboard and the fucking crankcase heater usually take as much power as a small AC unit. What she means are mini split systems. Quiet and efficient. However, over my years of experience, they cost the same bill wise electrically that my furnace costs with gas.
I also want to ask, when we all have electric heating, cars, electric everything....how are we going to supply America with that much power? Cali blacks out if someone plugs in an extra toaster in the summer.
These people have spent ZERO time in the real world and only repeat what the establishment placed staffers tell them to repeat.
Granholm was gov. of Michigan, she should know better. We do not have the weather to efficiently use heat pumps. When my cousin and I built our homes, I went conventional HVAC, he went Heat pump. He paid 4x as much, and tore it out and replaced it 5 years later because it couldn't keep up in Michigan winters...I was smart enough to have done the research beforehand...Heat pumps are OK for mild girlie climates, but real weather requires real heat.
Same will all those "energy efficient" windows. It takes so long to pay them off it's not worth it to your average homeowner. Now if I was a millionaire building a mansion like one of Al Gore's then it might make sense. A small savings per window adds up to quite a bit when you have an acre of glass in your house.
The so-called inflation reduction act was nothing but another Dem spending spree. It had nothing to do with inflation. I look forward to it being repealed and refunding any tax proceeds stolen from the people that came from the legislation
People who can't afford the gas bill can't afford to redo their HVAC you dumb cunt.
You can use all the money you saved at the pump from buying an electric vehicle.
I've been hanging onto my hotdog money for years for this moment!
$65,000 worth of hotdogs?
do they come with walnut sauce?
In it. In the walnut saice
You magnificent bastard. Well played.
Smart fren! That'll double itse...wait a sec...inflation...it'll half itself in no time! Look how much you saved! See...inflation IS good!
When my HVAC and water heater broke I replaced them with "energy efficient" models. Still waiting for those lower energy bills...
That just means it will do a worse job and break much sooner. I find used quality stuff and do repairs as necessary. Same with cars. I have a 2004 Suburban because it doesn't have AFM/DFM attached to the 5.3 V8. Those fuel management systems don't get you better mileage, they get you a nice oil leak pre 100k miles. All of this energy efficient trash is a monumental scam.
That's why old 4 cylinder Toyota Tacoma are so sought after. They drive forever with minimal care wheras the new Tacoma break down because they have so much h electronic shit.
It identifies as lower
They just use that as the excuse to have to up your rates now, cause muh shareholders and whatnot.
This comment will NEVER not get old. It was so retarded
How is saving 16 cents on an entire meal retarded? I bought an entire thimble of gas with that
I was able to support our democratic Allies of Ukraine with my 16 cents.
Did you think "HVAC" and "heat pump" were slang for bottom surgery?
Let them eat cake, amirite?
You can take 2-3 vacations from all the money you saved from energy bills.
I'd have to work a year's worth of overtime to cover the cost of repairs on those energy efficient models.
Are you really accusing Jen "We Can All Learn From China On Climate Policy" Granholm of being stupid?:
https://patriots.win/p/16aTVHhWyM/-3-new-ways-to-take-action-editi/c/
She is depending on us being stupid.
So build coal plants and dump waste in to the rivers?
Build coal plants and DON'T put waste into the rivers. The CO2 is actually greening the planet. There are now more trees than at any point in history. The Amazon is flourishing once again when it was said to be doomed.
I could care less about the CO2 but the coal plants put Mercury in to the ocean which is pretty terrible. The soot causes other world wide problems as well.
"There are now more trees than at any point in history."
Where's your source on that claim?
Not that I believe we can count the number of trees on earth any better than stars in the universe but I see reports/studies showing there are about half as many trees now as there were around 12,000 years ago.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/09/earth-home-3-trillion-trees-half-many-when-human-civilization-arose
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/carbon-dioxide-fertilization-greening-earth
Sooo are you going to fix your statement to "35 years" not "any time in history"?
Howry Fack!! Das BASED.
Heat pumps run on electricity. Gas is cheaper than electricity. Always has been, always will be unless we use nuclear power.
Also the electricity is probably produced by gas. So you burn gas somewhere else, just to turn it into heat somewhere else.
I get that heat pumps are "more effecent when you are trying to warm from 40 to 65, but factor in losses and colder weather and it just doesn't make sense.
Gas is cheaper than electricity. Always has been, always will be unless the government decides otherwise.
Gas is still cheaper than nuclear power
when considering the infrastructure and maintenance and the cost of disasters which strike every nuke plant in the long run
modern reactors are incapable of meltdowns. the cost is due to massive overregulation not actual construction. nuclear produces a massive amount of cheap clean energy and not using it is utterly retarded at this point
LOL Do you know what forum you're on?
Check UnsinkableTitanic.hah
But there are problems other than meltdowns which affect nuclear energy. Waste seep, broken water pipes (one just this past week, actually ... spilled hundreds of thousands of gallons of water with radioactive particles and will affect well water for thousands of miles....people, livestock, )
not a single reactor in the us is a modern design. not a single one.
Tie Game
Not true.
The tritium leak is a none issue. You'd get more Rads living next to a coal power plant. The amount of contaminated water was about half an Olympic pools worth, a drop in the bucket of a river. None made it into the drinking water. Tritium radiation can't even penetrate the layer of dead skin you have over your body.
You probably get more Rads breathing in random radon from the rocks and water near your home.
All radiation can promote cancer anomali to occur.
Hah!
RE: UnsinkableTitanic.hah
In retrospect, I wonder if there is a .MyAss top level domain. lol
or.... .lol (so obvious)
Lol. The second you brought ho nuclear waste you lost the argument. Sorry bud. Maybe youtube Kyle Hill and let him tell you in layman's terms just how wrong you are
shut up and buy a shitty $80,000 electric car
Dinosaur cars can run 20 years with little maintenance.
E-cars apparently need a new $30,000 battery after 5 years.
That will also cost an additional $15,000 dollars every 10 years to replace the batteries so they don't explode/fail
Someone's not really a globo team player. Your only purpose is to produce product and consume product to a perfect net zero.
"Sponsored by Siemens"
Who, by an incredible coincidence, happen to make heat pumps.
Is Pete Buttigieg a stock holder? I heard he's very big on Siemens.
He got a taste and now he's holding a long position.
Who's going to break it to him that his husband is pump & dump on Siemens?
Got a taste....of semen?
Thatsthejoke.jpg
Don't talk Siemens and pump too much. You'll get the feds on here excited.
That's how you sot the fed. Anybody making lots of typos from one handed typing is a fed
What the fuck? Wow that is real.
Since when is government commentary given on a literal infomercial for Siemens.
Since the USA became a corporatocracy. Which it has been for a very long time. They are just extra emboldened since the presidential coup to say the quiet parts out load all the time now.
Since: brought to you by Pfizer?
And a lovely Ukrainian flag in the background as well. SPONSORED BY SIEMENS(tm).
I hate these people so much it's insane.
What next, Pfizer sponsoring ads for their own Covid jabs?
And since they're all technically public service announcements informing people to 'get their covid vaccinations', they're not advertising a specific drug, therefore they're not obligated to include the possible side effects. Like all the skin rash drugs that have the micro machines guy ramble on and on all the horrible shit it can do to you at the end of the add.
Nah. If they did, instead of the government doing it on their behalf, they would be required, by law, to state the side effects in the ad
Excellent point. Having to say “died suddenly” as a side effect for the jab probably wouldn’t look very good.
No shame at all either.
Dumb cunt. This whole administration is a joke.
It’s not a joke though, it’s intentional.
Oh it’s a joke all right. You might not laugh, but someone will.
She's not dumb, far from it. She's counting on dumb virtue signalling women to repeat what she says like a true demrat.
The Nation would have been better off if her positions was left vacant.
Now do 95% of the rest of the feds.
Agree -
But this one.... She leads the pack.
I can see how compelling people to replace perfectly functional devices (of the exact same type) would reduce inflation in those devices. Right?
Didn’t you know that older model heat pumps are what’s pumping up inflation? Sheesh… have you guys ever taken an economics course in school? 😡
Heatpumps can't replace an HVAC system, they can only help it a small amount. Don't believe me?, Ask the UK.
Modern heat pumps (which aren't sold by most US HVAC companies) are actually efficient down to very low temperatures, well below freezing. And any good install should have a fallback to resistance or gas heat.
Got a heat pump installed with my AC system this year. I live in the middle of the woods in a 2 acre lot. I also put in an efficient wood burning stove with a catalyst. Nice 28% tax credit on that bad boy. I have fuel for the rest of my life. The stove di Does the main heating of the house over the winter and in thus scenario the heat pump is supplemental. It kicks on maybe around 3am and handles heating until I get out of bed and get the fire going again between 6-7am.
I'm looking at something similar when we build our hobby farm. A wood stove will provide a lot of heat, but planning for radiant floors fed by a geothermal exchanger.
That's a smart setup
Having a heat pump is like having an Audi. Awesome when they're not broken.
Good heat pumps are like good refrigerators. Assuming you have quality line sets and fittings (no slow leaks in the refrigeration lines between indoor and outdoor units), they will run for decades.
That's a false assumption. The linesets are underbuilt for the high pressure refrigerants they keep foisting on us. If we were allowed to use R-12, then yes the heat pumps would run for decades like a 50s refrigerator. But R-410a and it's newer higher pressure replacement are fucking everyone in the ass.
Around here, installers cut off the fittings from the brand new line sets and put on nuts that are at least twice as heavy, re-flare the tubes and torque them up. They complain that the cheap connectors pre-installed on the insulate line sets break all by themselves.
Because they're made from Chinesium!
Chinesium? Isn't that the plot of Avatar?
They're just air conditioners that run in both directions. Choose a reliable brand and you're likely to be fine.
I did (Carrier) and it failed before year 7
I'm sorry you got a bum unit. I'm not suggesting that Carriers are the Toyotas of HVAC, but even Toyota has lemons and recalls.
Ultimately, heat pumps really are just A/C units. They're no more or less reliable than the A/C units you get that only operate in one direction.
Almost like they have a... reversing valve
Indeed, resistive heating can't break
It can, but when it does it's fixable by any electrician or plumber, and it doesn't necessitate replacement of the whole system. Ever try finding and brazing a lineset leak in an A-coil?
Not really. There's no moving parts, it's just a set of metal plates connected to the power line with a wire nut.
Only thing that could break spontaneously is the thermostat. Which is unlikely if it's a simple analog one; they can last 50+ years no problem. Even that is fixable on your own with some common sense or by watching a couple youtube videos.
But yes repairing heat pumps are a lot more involved and require specialized equipment. Often not even worth the cost of labor and if it's old you're better off buying a new one with the newer refrigerants.
You must be talking about the good old days when coils were still made from copper and not micro channel bullshit
If installed and maintained properly.
Sure. Like literally any other piece of equipment, HVAC or otherwise.
Heck, my gas heater needs occasional maintenance.
Please tell more. All my local HVAC companies sell the same 2 brands. What info do you have that they are withholding selling a better product?
Two brands seems rather poor.
A better product would be a trans-critical CO2 unit, or "eco cute" like you have in Japan.
Many manufactures don't service the US market with specialty products because of California's bullshit regulatory nightmare. Daikin Altherma air-to-water was a good example. They want a single model that they can sell in all states, not just some of them.
There are many good brands. Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, Panasonic, Daikin from Japan and Gree from China. Gree makes millions of units that get rebranded. China will likely dominate in the future.
Well, do you recommend just going with the typical unit replacement or going DIY by someone with nearly zero electrical knowledge? Or are there install companies around Gainesville Fl that might have access to various products?
You can do most of DIY, especially for ductless. Inside you need to drill a three inch hole, screw on a plate and hang the head unit. There are lots of good videos of this.
The electrical is a single 220V feed from the main panel to a disconnect outside, near the outdoor unit. if you use Teck cable, you can avoid bothering with conduit. Most careful DIY types can do this -- as evidenced by the huge quantity of breakers and wire that Home Depot sells (as well as a nice Home Depot wiring book).
The refrigeration lines are a different matter. You could run the copper lines yourself and hook them up, but you probably don't want to own a gauge/line set and vacuum pump.
You could do the install but hire a HVAC technician by the hour to check the fittings, evacuate the unit, attach the power from the disconnect to the heat pump, and start it up. That might be $400 or less. You could also get someone authorized to sell that brand of heat pump which might be valuable if you ever need warranty service.
You could also install the electrical wiring to the disconnect and main panel, and let an electrician charge you an hour to hook it up (plus get the electrical permit).
Towns are getting pickier with regulations on heat pumps. Many will want an electrical permit and perhaps demand the heat pump installer be licensed, and demand a building permit and insist it be in the back of the house and not the side, and perhaps up your property value for tax purposes.
I wouldn't recommend a DYI install unless you like doing it yourself.
I’m in an area where people regularly DIY renovations without pulling permits. All of the information is great, thank you.
Make sure you drill the head unit backing plate into studs too
Vaccuming also isn't that hard if you watch a video on it but he would probably have no understanding of microns of what he's actually doing like removing moisture from the lines
Until recently, most technicians would just put the vacuum pump on and go for lunch.
Better technicians would pressure test the lines first, then pull a vacuum using a digital manometer, lubricate flares with POE oil, use a torque wrench etc.
I have a vacuum pump and have and adapter for a quart mason jar. If I get a watch or phone wet, I put in in the jar and watch the water boil off. I could probably make a really nice food dehydrator this way too.
Mikey Pipes really pushes the Bosch system. He's got a lot of good videos about them and has a few of his techs going to training on them.
Watch some repair videos of whatever system before you buy one. They are much more complex and harder to repair than ever before.
Your local HVAC companies probably just install what they have available from the companies they're affiliated with.
Unfortunately, comparing units by SEER ratings is hard because it doesn't call out the critical factor in making heat pump choices: Performance at cold temperatures. But check out this list of units and sort by Coefficient of Performance at 5 degrees Fahrenheit: https://ashp.neep.org/#!/product_list/
It bottoms out at a COP of 1.5, where you find typical American HVAC names like Trane, American Standard, and Carrier. The details for units here show that they struggle to keep up as temperatures approach freezing, and below freezing a unit sized appropriately for the house will fail to keep up and will cost more trying. Even in most of the southern US these would fall back to expensive emergency heat coils for a significant portion of the year. That's the situation I'm in now, where below 50F I can hardly tell that the air from the vents is warm and I run a gas heater to make up the difference.
But at the top end units have a COP over 3, and those things are still pumping out hot air at 100% efficiency well below freezing. The names here make a sea of Japanese and European mini-split ("non-ducted") units (and a few rebadges with American names)... but for single-zone setups, there's nothing special about mini-splits that actually contribute to this efficiency. It's just that Japan and Europe are standardized on mini-splits for residential installs, and there's actually competition in that space.
Here in the US, our typical manufacturers are still selling units with decades-old technology, because what incentive is there to change? There's little real outside competition. Your HVAC guy is probably affiliated with a single company, only has experience with ducted installs, and isn't trying to raise eyebrows with homeowners by trying to sell them on some weird foreign thing that puts a pod in every room. Architects design for ducted units, anyway. And both the manufacturer and the HVAC guys benefit from selling you a separate air conditioner and furnace even if you aren't at a latitude that would otherwise require. It may not be predatory. It's just what they've done for decades.
Fortunately, competition is starting to happen here. If you scroll down far enough, you can find that Carrier has ducted a few ducted models with a COP above 3 (their "Performance" series). Fortunately for me, my HVAC guy is sells Carrier. He's advised me to wait until the new refrigerant regulations go into place before buying, but that's what I have my eyes on. With one of those at my location, the heating coils may never turn on some years, and if they do it might be for a couple of nights for a couple of hours total.
Supposedly the new 410 replacement is ammonia based, no brazing either
Well right off the bat, I could probably go without heat if I want to suffer 3 days out of the year. I nearly only need cold air.
Excellent information, especially the new regulations part. Thank you!
I’m going to have to re read twice. I think because I don’t understand what emergency coils are I’m not understanding what is what but I can commie google it.
Glad I could help!
"Emergency coils" refers to the traditional electric heater coils that many heat pumps have for times when it's too cold for the heat pump to operate efficiently (or when the heat pump is out for some other reason).
You might also see it called "auxiliary heat". Some have gas burners instead of electric coils.
It's the unfortunate reality of physics that heat pumps have a harder time providing heat as it gets colder outside (less heat to pump!), so emergency heat will still be necessary in many cases. But these new units are so much more efficient that they can do the job most of the time for most people.
It's way more expensive to run off of the emergency heat, but as long as you only have to use it rarely, then a heat pump still ends up being a big win for saving costs on energy by handling most of the cold season.
Depends where you live. In much of the US heat pump is plenty for winter. But yeah northeast or northern US winters....don't even bother Imo.
Tell that to my family living in N. GA who are struggling to stay warm with a heat pump.
That area got down to 5 degrees F recently.
Probably lack of insulation and air sealing. Crawling around with a can of foam and caulk gun will probably make all the difference in the world with a bit of attention to weatherstripping and insulation.
Could also be undersized, but that’s unlikely if it was chosen while working with someone competent for the installation.
Cardboard sheathing!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leAWPZzaWL4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi9lTd7FPfY
I live in coastal SC, heatpump works fine.
Probs undersized..my parents in northern PA have a heat pump and never have to use their supplemental.
This. I live as north as you can get and survived -20 temps this winter with the heat pumps still working fine and no issues heating the house. These things are rated for -15 to still produce heat, they just aren't as energy efficient at those temps. The bad thing is my power company upped my monthly electric bill by 100 bucks a month thanks to the potato.
I find the ductless models (10 years or older) are good to about -15C (+5F) and then the air out of them is luke warm. Each degree colder outside, is a degree colder for the heat from the register or indoor wall unit.
The newer cold climate heat pumps are much better, supposedly down to -25C or so.
However, if you get -25C or worse (-13F) then you'll have to switch heat sources.
As far as population goes, there's maybe 80,000,000 people that can't use a normal heat pump. A ground source heat pump can cost $30,000 to $50,000. to install.
Plus, relying on a single source of power forced on us by the Gov't, run by a monopoly basically controlled by the Gov't, is absolutely tyrannical.
These people are terrorizing people who can't afford those expenses. They should be charged w/ terrorism.
Ground source heat pumps never really made it in the home market. The cost of the underground well systems was just too high and the efficiency of air-to-air and air-to-water units improved greatly.
Most homes can use a heat pump, but cost is still an issue. You are looking at having to install three or four individual ductless units, or a central ducted unit, or a multi-split ductless -- and that is a serious investment. For many homes, I would guess $20,000 that they just don't have handy.
You can run a four zone ductless heat pump off a 20A circuit and a small diesel generator can give you light and heat.
I don't trust government intentions nor their competence. We could easily have extended power outages, grid failures, or some bullshit rate structure based on ESG scores. The more sources of heat the better. Propane stove and fireplace, diesel and gas generators, wood stove, heat pump, electric baseboards and more.
Pity the poor buggers in highrise condos in a large city when things get ugly.
You need to build a heat cache if you live anywhere north of Texas.
Bro, I wasn't advocating to replace anyone's shit with a heat pump. Just saying they can work for a majority of the US under the right circumstances.
Calm down
Right now idiot Hochul in New York State is pushing legislation to FORCE EVERYONE exactly this, a ground source heat pump, and BANNING natural gas furnaces.
This is terrorizing millions of people in that state. Other states may due the same thing.
A friend of mine in the Northeast installed heat pumps, hoping to replace their oil fired boiler for heat. They found it works fine down to about 40° basically, spring and fall. For the winter, while it will produce heat when it gets down to the 20s, It’s not enough.
Yeah that is how they work. Your friend's HVAC person should have made sure there was a supplemental for when the temps get down lower. Again heat pumps aren't right for place with cold winters though IMO. Their best use is in places that stay above 40° in the winter time where you still need some heat.
Luckily, he had done his research, and kept the oil heat for the winter months and was actually advice so by the HVAC company. The biggest reason for getting it was the house was built in the 60s had hydronic baseboard heat, so a heat pump system was the least destructive way to add air conditioning.
Maybe it depends on the type of heat pump. Maybe you are referencing shitty ones. https://sealed.com/resources/winter-heat-pump/
40F is 4C. That isn't really cold at all. A ductless heat pump should be blasting out lots of heat at those temperatures.
A modern ductless heat pump should be fine to -10C (14F) before you notice the warm output are starting to get noticeable less warm.
I have one, in Missouri, it works alright, could be better. I previously had a 22 year old Rheem and a Hardy Wood Boiler, They worked better but did cost a bit more and was much more labor intensive.
A single head minisplit won't heat and cool an entire home. Larger systems can indeed replace an HVAC system, but it isn't cheap. Definitely $10,000+
I have a Daikin four zone heat pump that heats and cools the whole house. There are a few small bathrooms that have small baseboard heaters, but they are seldom on.
I have friends with floor heating using air-to-water heat pumps. They are warm in winter, heating is very cheap, but of course -- no cooling with floor heat.
Most new expensive homes have whole house, ducted heating and cooling using air to air heat pumps -- especially in areas where there is no natural gas.
Many new schools have geothermal heat pumps with air coils in every classroom. These work well too.
My 3 ton system works fine up in the mountains of PA. Has no issue keeping up unless temps dip below 10 degrees in my case. Cheaper than gas too. We do have an aux system for thoses really cold days which kicks in to supplement the heat from the heat pump, but modern pumps have no issues really. Just a very expensive technology.
Depends on where you live. In the southeast, its plenty
You will see results from the "inflation reduction act" as soon as you send me 3000 dollars.
Or let me keep some more of my money instead of sending $28k to the government in taxes
That sounds like an insurrection.
This hor is so stupid it is painful.
Whore?
he's been on youtube too much. Gotta work around the censors.
ho’….def: prostitute, girlfriend, mother, grandmother, english teacher, vice president, sec. of energy,
"Hoor" - Frank Reynolds
Thor?
In completely unrelated news, the price of heat pumps went up by, coincidentally, I'm sure, the same amount of the tax incentives!
You only have to spend $10-20k to see a $800 tax credit!!! Actually with inflation it probably runs more like $20-30k
Exactly what I’m thinking. Tax and labor and parts I was quoted $7500 for the cheapest model. A $800 tax credit is not going to push me to replace.
Nah I'll just keep repairing the propane furnace I have. Thanks.
heat pumps suck unless you live somewhere where the coldest it ever gets is like 50 degrees. Once it gets below 30, they just blow room temperature air in the house. If it gets below 20 they use electric heat strips that cost an insane amount of money to run
That's why their pushing ground source heat pumps, that cost $25,000 to $50,000 to install.
HUGE expense for some people, potentially mandated by an out-of-control Gov't in some states.
So called "emergency heat"
all of the "heat pumps" are made in china or japan....this is where the "tax credits" will go
I'd rather it be made in Japan than Communist China, at least Japan is our ally.
Dont count on japan for anything.
thats like extortion.
Has she not ever paid an electric bill? Those have skyrocketed as well, so you’re exchanging a higher gas bill for a higher electric bill. Bottom up middle out!
Limo liberals have no clue how actually poor people are living such as in Philly where many old row houses do not have any HVAC at all. I looked at buying a house that has an old radiator system still in very good condition and window units for the AC. The old radiators are still clean and tidy and very toasty. If I buy the house I won't get rid of them - just a new paint job. I'll likely just put in a free-standing central air unit with as few ducts and cuts as possible to the old gem of a house. Radiators are very cheap and keep the house very warm. So people having trouble paying that very cheap gas bill can't pay for or even use a "heat pump." It doesn't apply. It's like this cow has never been to a city where low or working class income people live. It's incredible.
People on EBT or electronic benefits transfer (aka welfare using an ATM card at stores that gets re-upped monthly) just got a big cut since the "pandemic benefits" ended this month. They are very sore.
The anger is palpable as you walk around. People look skinnier already from having their flat EBT payment get eaten away by inflation long before the cuts to the old pre-pandemic payout. Some people are engaging in petty theft, shoplifting. Cuts blindsided even honest people who are having church groups give seminars on cooking using cheap staples and such. People on welfare used to never have to cook in a generation, and now most do not know how. Grandma still cooks but she is the last one. Now if you don't cook, you do not have enough food for the month, and no one realized this until they had no money on the card but plenty of month left. If these kids who grew up on corner store quickie mart junk food and hoagies for dinner turn on a stove, they'll burn the house down.
Long story short, Biden and the Dems are hated. One reason the city "paid" the rioters from that bogus lawsuit is they are all on welfare and housing choice vouchers themselves, white and black, and it is not enough to live and not work. They are anti-work. So they needed to sue the city with the implied threat that any pol who did not pay them off faced more riots. It's bilking honest property tax payers as owners taxes just go up and up. So the "let them eat HVAC" Dems just have no clue that their useless schemes have no impact whatsoever on inflation or on the people or on the people most affected by it.
Insightful perspective. Thanks!
Yes. Let’s gut out the HVAC systems from 90+% of homes, that expense is something every home can afford! There won’t be backlog or spikes in materials at all! We will all just have free gay rainbow energy to power our homes for the 1 hour a day government allows us!
i live in florida
whats a heat pump
I’m wondering the same. Maybe that’s what we southerners call “air conditon” ? Does the air handler have heat coils? I don’t know how these things works
Spend a few grand and we promise you'll notice the savings in 15 years!
These people are completely disconnected from the life of the average American and should not be in positions of leadership.
Ah yeah, just let me run to the store and buy a few parts to replace my HVAC system. That's absoluely no financial problem for the great majority of middle class Americans stuck in a leftist inflationary era.
Oh, btw, $350 million more of your tax dollars just got greenlit for Ukraine.
Spend $12k to save $300. Typical govt thinking.
I hope an illegal car jacks her and chivs her in the ass
I lived with a 'heat pump' in a colder climate and it is absolutely USELESS when it gets really cold. The damn thing ran on emergency electric heat most of the time and my electric bill was through the roof.
Gas Furnace > Heat Pump
I just don't understand how so many people in the general public are so utterly fucking stupid they don't see how these people are completely fucking them over.
I INSTALL THESE FUCKING THINGS.
Heat pumps work at much higher rates than an AC added to a furnace. So uses more electricity you dumb bitch. Hell, the onboard and the fucking crankcase heater usually take as much power as a small AC unit. What she means are mini split systems. Quiet and efficient. However, over my years of experience, they cost the same bill wise electrically that my furnace costs with gas.
I also want to ask, when we all have electric heating, cars, electric everything....how are we going to supply America with that much power? Cali blacks out if someone plugs in an extra toaster in the summer.
These people have spent ZERO time in the real world and only repeat what the establishment placed staffers tell them to repeat.
Granholm was gov. of Michigan, she should know better. We do not have the weather to efficiently use heat pumps. When my cousin and I built our homes, I went conventional HVAC, he went Heat pump. He paid 4x as much, and tore it out and replaced it 5 years later because it couldn't keep up in Michigan winters...I was smart enough to have done the research beforehand...Heat pumps are OK for mild girlie climates, but real weather requires real heat.
I’m building a new house. Considered heat pump hot water heater. Payout is 20 years. I chose conventional.
Same will all those "energy efficient" windows. It takes so long to pay them off it's not worth it to your average homeowner. Now if I was a millionaire building a mansion like one of Al Gore's then it might make sense. A small savings per window adds up to quite a bit when you have an acre of glass in your house.
This dyke looks like a retarded Harry Potter character assigned with an actual job.
The so-called inflation reduction act was nothing but another Dem spending spree. It had nothing to do with inflation. I look forward to it being repealed and refunding any tax proceeds stolen from the people that came from the legislation
Thanks so much for giving me my own money back if I do what you deem best. Why should I get to decide? Just take my money and tell me what to do.
If you enjoy paying to fix frozen pipes in the winter the a heat pump is for you!
I mean I get what she's saying, but can I really trust her if she isn't a black lesbian tranny Muslim?
Cool spend thousands to save 10s of dollars.