So this simplistic argument misses the point completely. Things are worse than that. The situation we're currently in is entirely unconscionable, as the people primarily being represented are almost entirely untaxed. Meanwhile, their lifestyles are entirely supported by the taxes levied upon the productive who are not represented at all - unless they complain about the situation, then they are misrepresented.
Let's take the income tax as an example. Wasn't ratified properly anyway but even if it was, the people that voted for the income tax represented the people in 1913.
Saving this in my little info folder. I do think consent does also apply, especially in the cases of property tax serving to be little more than rent at threat of violence, but the lack of the representation by the people who tax us for any degree of wellbeing is what makes a lot of it bleak.
It's hard for me to really get the idea of taxation being required for representation in that it just feels like those who choose to save their money would end up at the behest of those who can take the lumps and lobby the gov to their whims, might mostly be because in the age I grew up with where taxes of all shapes and sorts are doled out to cleave more and more away from our worth that could be going to directly enrich mine or my family's life. But while I do consider that to be a big part of it, reading your comment kinda made me realize that I never even had much of the feeling that anyone in the government has ever represented me (or rather, American's) plight at least until Trump up until the Covid years but frankly I've grown completely detached from such a feeling that someone actually gave a shit.
I guess way back in the day they couldn't have minded paying some taxes or fees on some things, they were still able to go out and enjoy life, build their life from scratch even for the most part without all the incessant laws that act like tungsten chains on our ankles. Maybe if I was able to go out and receive my full paycheck rather than half, not have to feel extorted to keep my house, be able to leave something for my kids to receive in full when I die, I wouldn't mind so much about not having necessarily felt represented in my grievances but the option could be there to some degree?
Idk, just overall it sucks and I wish the system was better but as I've come to be aware of the concept of concepts themselves and how they shape our lives, I truly can't conceptualize a time or place in modern America where taxes wouldn't be oppressively weighing down on us. It just feels so exhausting all the time, you know?
Edit: Some of my thoughts were messy but I know if I don't get them out I'll likely lose them.
No worries. I may not have good answers, but your thoughts are making me think and that is good. u/HanginChad had a quality post in this thread with similar points I also agree with.
I like the idea of taxation being required for representation because it theoretically disenfranchises the takers and reinforces the enfranchisement of the makers in a system with organic feedback. Hopefully that would incentivize more reasonable government spending by applying an upper bound to welfare spending, which is nothing more than a vote-buying scheme thinly veiled as government philanthropy which dilutes the will of the people and bypasses the consent of the governed through government dependency.
Who knows though, at the end of the day I'm just some dipshit on the internet speaking wistfully out my butthole.
Yeah I think it's good to just stop and think about things on occasion and see where it leads you and how you could rationalize it. For example, I think the idea of safety net programs that people pay into aren't fully a bad idea, if everyone gave a single dollar to one place you'd have over 300 million dollars so if everyone who paid in just that once got hurt or ended up in a bad way and needed the time to get back up, probably wouldn't be that bad so long as it's those who pay in get something from it and it's done willingly, in theory at least.
So I get where you're coming from in that hopefully no representation without taxation could lead to getting rid of the leeches who would do nothing their whole lives on everyone else's inputs, plus maybe you're also right that as a result if the gov wants the money to keep flowing they'd end up having to actually keep up their end of the social contract.
Though I wonder if on a federal level in such a large union of states that expecting true representation from the people in washington is too much of a pipe dream. The more locally things are kept constrained the more of a degree of accountability (even at corporal punishment if the grievance was harsh enough) and adherence to the wishes of the people who pay into their states could garner through respect to the people they see in their lives more frequently, while programs that are established and maintained locally with input from their people with maybe larger benefactors putting in could see large levels of progress made in their local projects like buildings, roads, policing, that they could maybe feel more comfortable with paying into so long as it's not mandatory. Though still always has problems with the potential for corruption do to some lobbyers with deeper pockets, no system is perfect but interesting hypothetical at the least.
So I guess in a way taxes can come down more to a degree of trust that people have in their governments to respect their freedom, that if they could see the results and have faith that it wouldn't be squandered on fruitless projects for money laundering or wars without end nor end goals. So maybe it's more a correlation with a disconnect between our alleged government bodies and the people who they subsist off of, followed by a stagnation in the culture that might be something pushed by them to keep doing what they're doing? Idk.
Who knows though, at the end of the day I'm just some dipshit on the internet speaking wistfully out my butthole.
lol I like to think everyone does to a degree
Edit: Pretty sure I had more I was going to say but my brain gave out because it's late, I do enjoy this though :)
My beliefs and priorities are not and have never been represented in any government body ruling me, for my entire life. I am not represented simply because the person "representing" my region exists and got the most number of votes from people who are not me.
Consent is an individual, not a collective, affair. In fact, I have explicitly dissented in every way except for violent resistance, for my entire adult life. "Representation" my ass.
I disagree. Taxation, income tax that is, is by consent. The USA Corp that took the place of the usa federation is a foreign entity and is based in District of Columbia. When you become a citizen of the corporation you, unknowingly, claim you live in District of Columbia and consent to taxation. This little detail is what gives USA Corp jurisdiction over you. Did you know that the IRS is a private company that is housed in Puerto Rico? Any form that asks if you are a citizen is a contract that ties you to the corporation. These contracts are made by tacit agreement because you don’t know what you’re actually contracting to. These contracts can be killed and you can be freed from them. It just takes an open mind and a willingness to break from the matrix known as USA Corporation.
As far as taxes go, there is any good ones, but some are better than others and there is need for organizing funds as a way of maintaining law and order:
Some better ones:
Tariffs (tax on foreigners)
Land Value Tax (tax on land/natural resources, which have unique properties. Hard to establish unique claim to natural resources.)
Consumption Taxes (tax on consumers)
Criminal Fines (tax on criminals)
Government Service Fees (military museums as an example)
Absolutely Horrible Ones:
Income Tax (who gives you the right to have a share of my labor?)
Inflation (just straight up theft of value from my bank account)
Unrealized Gains (I looked profitable so you take money from me)
Inheritance tax is one of the worst, jam up grieving families for their pound of flesh taken from assets that were taxed repeatedly by payroll, income, capital gains, sales tax, property tax...
The only problem with this logic is if any contract is unconscionable, where consent is forced due to how one-sided the deal is. For example: if a prosecutor is forcing you to plead guilty to a crime and get a fine or go to trial, lose, and get thrown in jail for 20 years.
But bro, the roads? We need to give over half our wages for the roads. And to provide multiple liposuctions for land whales. Yeah, see? We need dem taxes…
I mean a certain level of taxation s justified. Soldiers need to be paid for self defense. Judges need to be paid to hear cases. If everyone has sovereignty over the product of their labor then what makes civil servants any different?
Taxation in of itself is not theft. Excessive taxation to spend on dumb shit is.
I kinda feel like compounded taxation is all of the above. Rape, slavery, robbery and theft. My employer pays me with money that has been taxed, then I pay tax on the income, tax when I spend it, and tax when I die without spending it.
You should learn to read. I’m suggesting people take up hobbies, exercise, or go outside as opposed to rambling online on an extremist website. This place is full of malcontents with no hope
Lots of fairies in the government
I thought Tinkerbell was one of those black gingers now?
Dyslexia?
lol
Gack Blingers?
Dyslexics of the world untie!
LOL
Lots of
fairiescommunist pedophiles in the governmentFixed it fer ya
You mean Jews?
einen Sturmfaggen gefunden...
Dan Crenshaw would like to play the role of Captain Hook.
The answer is...
Representation
So this simplistic argument misses the point completely. Things are worse than that. The situation we're currently in is entirely unconscionable, as the people primarily being represented are almost entirely untaxed. Meanwhile, their lifestyles are entirely supported by the taxes levied upon the productive who are not represented at all - unless they complain about the situation, then they are misrepresented.
Representation can be thought of as consent of the governed.
Let's take the income tax as an example. Wasn't ratified properly anyway but even if it was, the people that voted for the income tax represented the people in 1913.
Pretty much everyone involved is dead.
How are we being represented here?
Almost like the unborn already have legal standing as they are already under a contract that anyone alive never signed?
I don't disagree with you, and I don't think you really disagree with me. Our points are not opposed.
Saving this in my little info folder. I do think consent does also apply, especially in the cases of property tax serving to be little more than rent at threat of violence, but the lack of the representation by the people who tax us for any degree of wellbeing is what makes a lot of it bleak.
It took me a couple edits to get it where I wanted it, but the root of it all is the birth of Americana: "No taxation without representation"
I also believe the inverse to be true, "No representation without taxation". No way this idea is new, or mine, but I arrived there independently.
It's hard for me to really get the idea of taxation being required for representation in that it just feels like those who choose to save their money would end up at the behest of those who can take the lumps and lobby the gov to their whims, might mostly be because in the age I grew up with where taxes of all shapes and sorts are doled out to cleave more and more away from our worth that could be going to directly enrich mine or my family's life. But while I do consider that to be a big part of it, reading your comment kinda made me realize that I never even had much of the feeling that anyone in the government has ever represented me (or rather, American's) plight at least until Trump up until the Covid years but frankly I've grown completely detached from such a feeling that someone actually gave a shit.
I guess way back in the day they couldn't have minded paying some taxes or fees on some things, they were still able to go out and enjoy life, build their life from scratch even for the most part without all the incessant laws that act like tungsten chains on our ankles. Maybe if I was able to go out and receive my full paycheck rather than half, not have to feel extorted to keep my house, be able to leave something for my kids to receive in full when I die, I wouldn't mind so much about not having necessarily felt represented in my grievances but the option could be there to some degree?
Idk, just overall it sucks and I wish the system was better but as I've come to be aware of the concept of concepts themselves and how they shape our lives, I truly can't conceptualize a time or place in modern America where taxes wouldn't be oppressively weighing down on us. It just feels so exhausting all the time, you know?
Edit: Some of my thoughts were messy but I know if I don't get them out I'll likely lose them.
No worries. I may not have good answers, but your thoughts are making me think and that is good. u/HanginChad had a quality post in this thread with similar points I also agree with.
I like the idea of taxation being required for representation because it theoretically disenfranchises the takers and reinforces the enfranchisement of the makers in a system with organic feedback. Hopefully that would incentivize more reasonable government spending by applying an upper bound to welfare spending, which is nothing more than a vote-buying scheme thinly veiled as government philanthropy which dilutes the will of the people and bypasses the consent of the governed through government dependency.
Who knows though, at the end of the day I'm just some dipshit on the internet speaking wistfully out my butthole.
Yeah I think it's good to just stop and think about things on occasion and see where it leads you and how you could rationalize it. For example, I think the idea of safety net programs that people pay into aren't fully a bad idea, if everyone gave a single dollar to one place you'd have over 300 million dollars so if everyone who paid in just that once got hurt or ended up in a bad way and needed the time to get back up, probably wouldn't be that bad so long as it's those who pay in get something from it and it's done willingly, in theory at least.
So I get where you're coming from in that hopefully no representation without taxation could lead to getting rid of the leeches who would do nothing their whole lives on everyone else's inputs, plus maybe you're also right that as a result if the gov wants the money to keep flowing they'd end up having to actually keep up their end of the social contract.
Though I wonder if on a federal level in such a large union of states that expecting true representation from the people in washington is too much of a pipe dream. The more locally things are kept constrained the more of a degree of accountability (even at corporal punishment if the grievance was harsh enough) and adherence to the wishes of the people who pay into their states could garner through respect to the people they see in their lives more frequently, while programs that are established and maintained locally with input from their people with maybe larger benefactors putting in could see large levels of progress made in their local projects like buildings, roads, policing, that they could maybe feel more comfortable with paying into so long as it's not mandatory. Though still always has problems with the potential for corruption do to some lobbyers with deeper pockets, no system is perfect but interesting hypothetical at the least.
So I guess in a way taxes can come down more to a degree of trust that people have in their governments to respect their freedom, that if they could see the results and have faith that it wouldn't be squandered on fruitless projects for money laundering or wars without end nor end goals. So maybe it's more a correlation with a disconnect between our alleged government bodies and the people who they subsist off of, followed by a stagnation in the culture that might be something pushed by them to keep doing what they're doing? Idk.
lol I like to think everyone does to a degree
Edit: Pretty sure I had more I was going to say but my brain gave out because it's late, I do enjoy this though :)
My beliefs and priorities are not and have never been represented in any government body ruling me, for my entire life. I am not represented simply because the person "representing" my region exists and got the most number of votes from people who are not me.
Consent is an individual, not a collective, affair. In fact, I have explicitly dissented in every way except for violent resistance, for my entire adult life. "Representation" my ass.
I disagree. Taxation, income tax that is, is by consent. The USA Corp that took the place of the usa federation is a foreign entity and is based in District of Columbia. When you become a citizen of the corporation you, unknowingly, claim you live in District of Columbia and consent to taxation. This little detail is what gives USA Corp jurisdiction over you. Did you know that the IRS is a private company that is housed in Puerto Rico? Any form that asks if you are a citizen is a contract that ties you to the corporation. These contracts are made by tacit agreement because you don’t know what you’re actually contracting to. These contracts can be killed and you can be freed from them. It just takes an open mind and a willingness to break from the matrix known as USA Corporation.
https://communities.win/c/GreatAwakening/p/16an0n5KqX/theft-by-deception-deciphering-t/c/
https://onestupidfuck.com/ (Free training on how to kill contracts and free yourself from the corporation)
LOL
Taxation isn't theft because they don't steal your money. They coerce you into handing your money over by using the threat of kidnapping and/or death
Taxation is coercion.
But I guess theft is pretty close.
Watch them claim "the money actually belongs to us, you're just leasing/renting it from us until we decide we want it back.
They've done it before with Gold didn't they make it illegal to not sell over your gold ?
What you describe is extortion which is considered a form of theft. It's what the mafia does.
As far as taxes go, there is any good ones, but some are better than others and there is need for organizing funds as a way of maintaining law and order:
Some better ones:
Absolutely Horrible Ones:
Feel free to mention any I missed.
Inheritance taxes on small businesses.
Inheritance tax is one of the worst, jam up grieving families for their pound of flesh taken from assets that were taxed repeatedly by payroll, income, capital gains, sales tax, property tax...
Inheritance tax kicks in starting after the first $12 million.
But muh Dual Citizenship....
The only problem with this logic is if any contract is unconscionable, where consent is forced due to how one-sided the deal is. For example: if a prosecutor is forcing you to plead guilty to a crime and get a fine or go to trial, lose, and get thrown in jail for 20 years.
Underrated. Consent WITHOUT coercion.
Don't forget how the government forced you to get the COVID Jab, and threathen to take away your job if you didn't provide consent
The government is just a Mafia that convinced enough people to go along with them.
Because taxation is theft and nobody likes being robbed.
but muh healthcare
97% of the revenue irs gets is from volunteer payers, 3% is from irs enforcement
But bro, the roads? We need to give over half our wages for the roads. And to provide multiple liposuctions for land whales. Yeah, see? We need dem taxes…
Consent is implied if we do nothing.
The correct answer is representation. Which has been replaced by fairy dust. But yes, it is the correct answer.
Thought that mess kept you young and let you fly... Taxes too? That indoctrination, bro!!!
What makes sex not rape? When women call all the shots.
the IRS says income taxes are voluntary. it really does.....bahahahha...just like..."no one forced you to take the shot..it was your choice"
I mean a certain level of taxation s justified. Soldiers need to be paid for self defense. Judges need to be paid to hear cases. If everyone has sovereignty over the product of their labor then what makes civil servants any different?
Taxation in of itself is not theft. Excessive taxation to spend on dumb shit is.
I kinda feel like compounded taxation is all of the above. Rape, slavery, robbery and theft. My employer pays me with money that has been taxed, then I pay tax on the income, tax when I spend it, and tax when I die without spending it.
If we're being technical it's actually robbery, not theft.
Robbery is theft by way of force or threat of force. Try not paying tax and see what happens
Taxation is not theft.
According to boomers, it's not. Me paying social security to support some old fuk is theft.
No it's not.
The consent for taxation is through your elected representatives and continued residence.
What stops genital mutilation without anesthesia from being sexual violence? Doing it to a boy.
People need to find better outlets for expressing discontent than posting on extremist platforms.
Since you seem to be so eager to voluneer, how should we better protest?
You should learn to read. I’m suggesting people take up hobbies, exercise, or go outside as opposed to rambling online on an extremist website. This place is full of malcontents with no hope