MAGA is more than a Conservative movement.
Would you be offended to your core if I told you I was indifferent to Conservative values? I hope not. Would you doubt my support of Trump as a non-Conservative? I hope not.
I am a Classical Liberal a little left of Centre. I will tell you some truths and you will better see my position. Every year the mainstream Left get crazier and less reasonable and rational. Every year they are moving further and further away from my positions. They are not moderate and not able to be reasoned with. They are Authoritarians and not to be trusted.
So as a reasonable person do I side with people who for the most part are completely reasonable and rational, that I disagree with to a degree on specific topics? Or do I side with dangerous nutcases. It is not a hard choice.
I have been against these lunatics for years. I see them for what they are. They are cultural cancer and will march culture and society off a cliff.
Years of Obama-resque Global Progressives and Global establishment Republicans all feeding from the same trough and hat tipping their contemporaries World Wide like Merkel and Trudeau.
Then came Trump and I had hope. He was going to smash this Progressive Globalist status quo and show the world a different way to do things. I hoped like Hell he was serious and he would succeed. That he would say no to the Authoritarians and the elitists. I have been hoping this for years.
I never had a problem with the things he said per se as I was worried things said poorly or inarticulately would sink him and it never did and my confidence in hos ability to do his thing increased.
I believe in Trump.
As a result I believe in you guys too. I think you may be surprised at how large the tent is of Trump supporters. People who back the man and will defend him to the hilt.
Trump and MAGA eclipses Conservatism.
Remove a label, add a label.
Liberal? Classic liberal? Libertarian? Conservative? Communist? Socialist?
These labels continue to be applied and reapplied and look how well we dance to and follow the pied piper.
Do you believe in the Constitution? Do you believe in free speech? Are you a patriotic American? Do you believe in country first? Do you believe that every legitimate citizen is entitled to liberty and the pursuit of happiness?
If you say yes to these things, you are most likey a Trump supporter. What the MAGA movement has manged to do is bring together all those different political philosophies and has made them secondary to the movement.
MAGA doesn't care about your skin color, sexual preference, religious or ethnic background. MAGA doesn't care if you are rich or poor. MAGA only cares about what you're willing to do to better yourself and by extension, better the country.
As a classical liberal myself, I agree wholeheartedly. The progressive movement has become an ideological virus, injecting itself into every cultural center, destroying it, and moving on to the next. I will vote Trump just to score a victory against it.
MSM is fake news because of HR4310 SEC 1078 WHICH legalized propaganda.
Follow the candidate that gives you the most freedom pretty simple choice the shitty dems/deepstate do not want critical thinkers
I'm in that boat. I don't follow party divides at all, feel like the concept is holding us back. What would you say makes you left though?
For starters I am not religious. Not NECESSARILY unto itself a Left Right thing. But certainly part of me. I am not anti--abortion. I think not only the rare rape/incest exceptions but also teenage kids who are too immature and stupid to make adult decisions ought not be saddled with adult consequences. After that I get a little uncomfortable with mentally squaring up abortion. I think it should be coupled with regulations, counselling and education and not treated as a form of birth control and with the gravitas of removing someone from life support. (But as I say if I had to chose the open slather abortion on demand up to the time of birth and leaving babies to die if they survive abortion attempts and such....well refer up above as to whether I would back a rational idea I disagree with or a crazy idea) Guns, I am indifferent about. I see both the desire of restrictions and such but also recognise some people wish to defend this right from any restrictions. But the problem again is Progressives do not want to do anything short of banning them all. There is no genuine position there to be had. Gay Rights, I am supportive of them and such but I do not go for the Progressive Stack Cultural Marxism crap. Welfare I am definitely in favour of but I do believe that it should always be to allow people to get back on their feet not to stay off their feet. Tax funding art and artist endevours? Bit of a difficult one. Yes I think thee has to be some amount of this but the problem is like anything, certain people become gate holders and stymie this and suddenly useless avant garde performances or exhibitions by condescending posers and elitist snobs all engaging in pseudo intellectual masturbation is the result.
And so on and so forth.
I am Left leaning but pretty close to Centrist on most positions. I am a LOT closer to Conservatives than I am to mainstream Left and that was not always the case. Certainly within the last 10 years they have move far from me and I have not really changed. I stayed me.
I hear you on the left and right thing, but understand that Conservatism is a large spectrum. Also understand that many (probably not most, but many) Conservatives take issue to things like abortion not because they don't believe that victims of rape, children, incest, or otherwise should be forced to give birth. It's that there is the almost inevitable slippery slope that is attached to these political talking points that give rise to rather dystopic possibilities.
First, how would you enforce abortion when people can (and do) falsify rape allegations? For every law put in place, there have always been people that will push boundaries to get away with just about anything and everything. This is no different.
Second, understand that every precedent set in any court of law pushes its application, and typically, it does not favour the principled or the virtuous. Abortion was legalized in many parts of Europe under these exact same ideas. Now, you see that in countries like (it's one or more countries, but I believe it was) Sweden where Down Syndrome has been reduced to 0% of all births.
These exact same ideas extend to gay rights. Don't think to stereotype all conservatives as Bible clutching bigots who'd sooner rather lynch a gay man than hug him. Many hold the belief that this push for LGBT rights is just, once again, a slippery slope. And can you say they're wrong? We're bearing witness to paedophilia on the precipice of becoming inducted into the alphabet soup, child drag queens being legally allowed to strip for money, and them using the anti-gay movement (one that hasn't had any sense of relevancy in modern culture) being used to smear conservatives and promote hate speech laws.
Likewise, with gun control, it's not about them being callous or indifferent to gun violence. If anything, they see the encroaching red flag laws to promote that. Once again, allowing the disparity in powers of the government and the country's citizens to grow without impedance isn't exactly conducive of a free and violent free society. Case in point, Venezuela, the U.K., Sweden, Hong Kong, China, Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany, Cuba, and so on and so forth. Even parts of the U.S. where gun laws are at its strictest often feel the full brunt of it. If you're skeptical, look at "murders" by guns (not deaths by guns, which includes suicide), and see how those stack up with gun ownership.
And herein lies the problem with the left. They see every issue as if it's isolated, as if they're in a vacuum. They don't understand that every issue affects other aspects, too. Overreaching gun control leads to governmental overreach which leads to freedoms (amongst them, freedom of speech) being ratified, and in many cases, gun violence. This is likely because the left prioritize two values above all else. Don't just take my word for it. Look up this study showcasing how Liberals tend to use only "Harm" and "Fairness" whereas Conservatives have an admixture of Harm, Fairness, Authority, Purity, and Ingroup. https://www.psypost.org/2010/07/difference-moral-foundation-liberal-conservative-1060 .....
Here it is in detail. https://www.projectimplicit.net/nosek/papers/GHN2009.pdf .....
Leftist MO:
Pretend to be allied, sell sabotage ideas by increment.
Pure taqqiya.
Wtf are you doing here? Leftism destroys. Everything.
You hate religion and support abortion?
Seriously Wtf are you trying to do here?
On the surface it would seem you preach tolerance but you are just promoting the Hillary Clinton ticket.
Those fuckers have smashed my windows and stolen my property. Take the leftism back to the Democrat plantation. Don't try to create a new one here when we just got OFF chinareddit.
Disavow the Jacobinism or don't let the door hit you on the way out. Promoting halfway MAGA and halfway insane is Hegelian Dialictic.
No cultism, please!
I don't hate religion. It bothers me not at all if someone finds strength and hope if such things. More power to them. I would not choose to take that from them.
Taqqiya is part of a religious doctrine. I do not take my queue from that.
Hillary is Granny Evil. Not a recent revelation. I have believed it since Whitewater and it is more palpable as years go by. Epstein did not kill himself.
Sorry some crazed nutcase Authoritarians smashed your windows. I am neither authoritarian nor crazed. They are not with me. I have no problem disavowing them
Here's the deal. You're in America. Land of the FREE. FREEDOM is our Mantra. You are allowed to believe HOWEVER you wish. It is the very basis for our country. The left believes that you MUST believe in their ways, or you are some kind of Nazi, racist etc. I, as a freedom loving American, would DIE for your right to think how you want. It is the very basis for what I and this country has ALWAYS believed in. The sad part is, with these candidates, we are LITERALLY one election away from all of that being lost. It is likely the most important time in our country since the REVOLUTION. And China and Russia know it. DON"T be like China, just MAGA-->KAG.
As mostly a libertarian person, I often find left-right a false divide. I believe in freedom and dislike authoritarianism. Live and let live. I support individual people to live in culturally different and socially unusual ways, if they don’t create coercive or abusive action. I think victimless crimes (for the most part) should not exist (gambling, prostitution, most drug use, end-of-life suicide, practicing jobs like plumber without a license, being free to not mow your lawn, etc., should be legal if practiced free of coercion). I also believe in small government, low taxes, am against most foreign wars. I see private property as the fundamental right all other rights depend on. I support the Constitution/Bill of Rights as the greatest invention in history. I endorse America First, think we should establish Federal IDs, see a clear line between US citizens and illegal aliens, yet welcome legal immigration, am supportive of most unions, see the importance of short term safety nets, and endorse community-based cooperatives and government-private efforts that help fundamental scientific research (NASA, University-based research, etc.)
Am I left or right?
The problem is more complex than left-right. It’s now more about PC authoritarianism, people who on the one hand think (conservative) speech is violence yet condone violent action and censorship to combat free speech, who think making a lot of money (regardless of how it was made or who benefits from the economic expansion it fostered and the philanthropy it resulted in) is immoral and support violence in an effort to force “equity”, who have pulled the rug out from under Western Civilization.
The right gave us the Patriot Act and eroded the 4th amendment. The left is destroying the 5th amendment with these ridiculous impeachment proceedings. The right gave us McCarthyism. The left created the Cancel Culture. Both sides seem to endorse erosion of freedom in the name of their agenda.
The real divide may be between those who control the levers of power (political elites, deep state, political-corporate complex, the extreme wealthy) and the regular people who want to live their own self-defined lives. Currently, it seems the Left is endorsing greater authoritarianism, but it wasn’t long ago that the Right seemed the more insidious authoritarian. (Read: Neocons, intolerant religious folks, conservative south Jim Crows and the current Groypers bigots.)
What MAGA and Trump has done is endorse the non-authoritarian freedom approach in most things. MAGA respects differences while putting AMERICA First. It is tolerant without being useful idiots for PC authoritarian creep. It endorses kindness to neighbors while respecting the ability to define individual dignity and religious freedom. It endeavors to give more power to everyone without reference to group identity, race, victimhood illusions. It heightens pride in Western Civilization. And it is exposing the hypocrisies and excesses of those with power, from Hollywood to the MSM to Clinton-Obama-Pelosi/McCain-Romney corruption to anti-democratic incursion by foreign powers from Soros to China.
We want each other to succeed — free of abuse, coercion, manipulation and coordinated authoritarianism. That is the genius of AMERICA. Optimism through self-determination. MAGA!
Are righteous and sinful also social constructs and false paradigms? Young and old too.
People should be "free" to shop underage prostitutes from Jeff Epstein. People should be free to wipe out humans like unwanted hives of wasps. They are just animals after all. Children should be free to work any hours, skip school, and sell their bodies for sex.
That's libertarian values. Anything else is tyranny.
(This is why Ron Paul went to the RINO filled republican party over libertarians. Too much robotic, unhuman, unwise thinking.)
Hardly libertarian values. Ron Paul joined the GOP to help America. He’s hardly RINO. You seem as disdainful of the GOP as you do of libertarians. Your comments are so exaggerated, (you send like the self-appointed purity police), I probably shouldn’t even respond. But here I am, taking the bait.
Nearly all beliefs, when stretched to the limit (and beyond) can justify anything. Moderation and pragmatism are part of my own beliefs, and I’d obviously not condone any of the abusive, coercive, manipulative actions you wrongly attribute to libertarians. MAGA and Libertarianism meet at several junctures. But above all, as an American, I appreciate what Trump has and continues to accomplish. That is why I have joined this site.
I'm a centrist, myself. Don't quite care for party lines. It's tribal, either way. I've got my own set of political philosophies and I'm supporting whichever President most accurately represents them. That just so happens to be Trump.
Considering he has explicitly gone against the deep state's pro-war status quo for the most part (barring putting troops on Saudi soil) with NK peace treaties and being the first president to step foot across the DMZ (yuge, ballsy, and yuge balls), stopped the Iranian missile barrage, largely pulled out of Afghanistan, while bolstering the U.S. economy, pushing back against China, voicing support for the HK protesters, addressing the illegal immigration problem, calling out the corruption with the news as well as certain crony types, he has many boxes checked. He's not perfect nor do I expect him to be. But, judging by the players on the field right now, he's the best we can hope for currently.
If I were American, I wouldn't ever say I'm voting Republican. I'd say I'm voting Trump. Both parties have been hijacked by a group of Oligarchs, a controlled opposition where we're given the illusion of choice. To that end, I'd say I'm disillusioned, but so are many, many Americans. The Neocon and Neolibs have become so damn predictable with their fixation on war, oil, regime change, and crony capitalism, and the majority of rational thinkers are sick of it.
Trump has broken that mold and the political stereotypes that have entranced most of the Western world for perhaps too long. His backing isn't just from conservatives or us centrists. It comes from the pissed off voters who are sick and tired of being promised change only for these politicians to never deliver.
He is brash, rude, unprofessional, and that's precisely his appeal. Contrast that to someone who is well spoken, polite, and professional who personally signed off on bombing hundreds if not thousands of civilians.
Worst Trump's done doesn't even compare to anything any of his predecessors have. Other than Yemen and putting troops in Saudi Arabia, there's really nothing in my mind that can be fairly criticized.
The Saudi Weapons deal would have gone to the Russians or Chinese if not the U.S., so on a pragmatic standpoint, it's a lose lose either way. The Syrian pullout was in all likelihood a ruse to get the head of IS, aka the same terrorist organization (who got its military arsenal from the U.S. troops that were hastily pulled out of Iraq by Obama before any proper military presence could be established) that has been wreaking havoc on Syrian infrastructure as well as causing mayhem in the Middle East in general.
I'd wager most of us are similar, for instance many many repubs hated voting for RINOs but saw the choices as being lesser of two evils.
Yeah, we get it, we are libertarians and conservatives mostly but some who would claim liberal status.
Like me, a Libertarian by political model, yet forced to vote for mostly repubs over the years because of reality. Voted for Carter my first election, because Nixon seemed a crook, and realized how awful Carter was. Woke up right there, or began doing so. Voted for Perot later, wanting to make a statement, force government back inside Constitutional Law. Could not be done prior to This Timeline.
We all agree on one main thing; honest government operating inside Constitutional Law. We can, as a Society, argue any issue and accommodate it or not as Society decides, but within the confines of Constitutional Law, not as social engineering projects or agendas.
For instance I would legalize pot, outlaw public sector unions, cause those who subsist on government benefits to perform work as they may, force functioning schools on communities even if parents must be addressed along the way, reduce taxes because would reduce commitments overseas and in corrupt areas inside America, make term limits and force Congress to live as Citizens do, enforce existing Law and remove onerous regulations, require the Second Amendment to be respected universally inside America, thoroughly punish corruptions.
Anyhow, we are all alike, those of us who are sane. THAT is MAGA, simple as that.
This is truly a Spiritual Awakening to a greater degree than it is a political movement. Look at Hong Kong, Brazil, Poland, france, other parts of Europe are all howling for sanity, for Law, for Freedom.
The fact we each are different doesn't matter at all, we each desire honest government operating inside Constitutional Law, if a person believes in that we are then alike, twins who may wrestle with lesser arguments until agreement or compromise is born.
"I am a libertarian. Other people force me to vote for candidates who don't represent me. I also don't participate at my local political level."
How can other people force you to vote for a bad candidate?
You need to get over your learned helplessness. Why do self-described libertarians always think they are the wisest person in the room?
Why would you be such a negative force here? We are welcoming those who see how important President Trump is to this great country that you love so much. Why would you attack those who are starting to see the light? Really, get over yourself and accept those as they are. None of these people are going to somehow infect people here with their center left identification. You are not helping the cause.
Did you intend that for me? I ask because it seems so yet I posted nothing like your vacuous attempt at insult. Assuming you did intend it for me then... No one forces me except me, you invent accusations out of whole cloth when you dare assign your values to me.
You have no idea of my participation in anything so again you lie and slander as your chosen agenda, rather than any reflection of my humble self.
I have no learned helplessness, in fact I am as far removed from helpless as a single person may be, within reason.
And I doubt Libertarians think they are the wisest persons in the room, but it is clear you do consider them as wiser when compared to yourself; you wouldn't harbor hatreds against them/us if you didn't consider your intellect inferior you see.
Perhaps you would enjoy raising your sights, and Merry Christmas.
You fight for truth!
Really good insights. Thank you.
Sorry, i was not going to post further on this but i think i need to clarify a couple of things.
I was not trying to get anyone to conform to my views or bash Conservatism. My agenda if anything was to show that support of Trump is far from just a majority of Republicans. Many like myself support him for other reasons. It was trying to say, his support is bigger than many say.
On a final point there have been some in comments have tried letting me know how bad the howling authoritarian mobs are. I know this. I am aligned against them.
But i will go one better. In years gone by i was a great believer that there should be an open marketplace of ideas, everyone should have a seat at the table and good iseas win out.
Within the last 10 years Progressives accepted that seat and by threat, censure, deplatforming, intimidation and the like, ejected others out so they could have more seats at the table. Then they refused voices unlike their own at the table. They took over the left. People like myself let that happen. Many became Progressives or supported them in hope they were not similarly attacked or banned from online spaces. Many became Conservative. I didn't but people like me did. Not Conservatives or Progressives but Liberals like me. Its not like i am pretending i don't know the score or shy away from facts.
Well said.
So...you like MAGA but somewhat ally yourself with the madness and God-complex that nearly destroyed America forever?
Time to wake up and let go of all your bad ideas. THEY DON'T WORK. Don't try to sell them here. We are here to make America great AGAIN - that is patterned after what it was. Not to open it up for a new way for you to sell leftism toward some nebulous "progress". No thank you. America got it right. Limited Republic. Big work and industry. Go back to that. NO LEFTISM.
Study history and gain a little wisdom. I believe in you and thank you for supporting Mr. Trump. But you are a clown if you expect me to respect your flavor of leftism just because you voted Trump.
Discover what being American in. That's all I care about. This country has a lifeblood that will flow when you drop all terms and ideologies and just LOVE America - life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness; the Constitution; a Republic government. Mmmm I LOVE THIS COUNTRY!!!
Hope this helps you make your next big leap. God bless you! Peace be multiplied.