We can't sue Reddit because we have no damages to claim. We aren't paying for the service, and they are in no way liable to help us make money. The only way we get Reddit into the court system is by removing Section 230 protections from them making them a publisher, like a newspaper, or magazine. Think about this, a news paper that advertises to children, r/Teenagers, and also has a place for teenagers to post their own pictures nude r/legalteens, where it is up to Reddit to both stop children from uploading nudity, but also to stop children from viewing nudity. They can't and don't do either. Right now, section 230 keeps them out of liability from that in the same way Comcast is not liable for anybody downloading child porn, your phone company is not liable for the crimes you commit on their phone network. But, the thing is, Comcast does not stop you from up voting in the_Donald because you like Donald Trump, your internet provider can not legally stop you from accessing any content, if they do, they become a curator. CNN curates. CNN is a publisher. If you go on CNN. com you do not have the right to post on their site, you don't have the right to access information, they have full control. Because of that, CNN can not, and does not provide children with access to porn, or they would be held liable. Comcast provides children with access to porn, and is not liable because of section 230. It's even worse when you consider that u/spez is actively using 230 protections to interfere in our elections. Imagine if your internet provider cut off access to thedonald.win because they don't like Trump. You would be pissed, but the internet provider would also be curating what you, the customer can and can not see. Which is what Reddit is currently doing on the_Donald. This is far worse than "Russiah" buying some adds on myspace, and Spez has already admitted to his ability to do it. To fix this we need 1 of 3 things as far as I can figure.
-
FCC, Federal Communications Commission, removes section 230 protections from Reddit, and they get held liable for everything on their site. Imagine if CNN published content in the way of wanting to kill the president. Reddit does that every day, all over the site. The CEO of Reddit would be held liable for that content without 230 protections. The problem here is that FCC is not equipped to handle individual websites, because it is set up to deal with communications companies. But Reddit basically decided, I am not sure how they did this, that they are an ISP, when they are clearly not. At one point they may have been close, by allowing users to curate, and staff staying the hell away, something like what 4chan does. They no longer take this hands off approach. They actively took control of our sub Reddit, and shut it down the day of a debate, and a week before super Tuesday.
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FEC, Federal Elections Comission, looks into election interference. This seems like a joke to some, BUT Reddit is the 19th most popular site in the world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_popular_websites) and is the 3rd most popular social networking site in America. It has a huge reach... of cucks and communists, but still. By illegally using section 230 to do what spez said he could do, interfere in our election, he is clearly violating the law. If you think Russia buying some adds was bad... This is campaign contributions totaling Billions of dollars for the demoncrats buy simply having Bernie on the front page, and not allowing Trump on the front page. Millions of people go on Reddit everyday. They don't notice that Trump is no where to be found, and that means Reddit is advertising to millions of people for the demoncrats, and those people have no clue that they are seeing a Bernie add paid for by Reddit inc that Reddit and Bernie are not disclosing to the FEC.
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Congress can start an investigation. We can give them the info, and they can hand that info to the FBI, and DEMAND that the FBI look into everything. That would be the feds taking the servers of Reddit, and checking on 1 and 2. If the Feds deems either 1 or 2 legitimate, the CEO at minimum goes to jail for a long time. We do not control congress right now. So this is not the best option. But in reality, the government is so cucked the fuck up, options 1 and 2 aren't looking that good either. Trump ran on draining the swamp, I'm not sure he got to draining either the FCC or FEC yet. Feel free to ask questions.
Who to report election interference too-
https://www.fec.gov/legal-resources/enforcement/complaints-process/how-to-file-complaint-with-fec/
Who to report section 230 abuse too-
https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/filing-informal-complaint
Twitter addys are: @FEC and @FCC
Report everything you think is important to-
https://www.contactingcongress.org
Extra info
Reddit hides behind this -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communications_Decency_Act
When they are really this -
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Publishing+Law
Why not get spez put in jail for interfering with our election? Or attracting children to the site with r/teenagers, allowing them to post nudity in r/legalteens and r/gonewild, and not stop them from viewing porn?
Before you head to TheDonald.win why not report Reddit for election interference???
Who to report election interference too-
https://www.fec.gov/legal-resources/enforcement/complaints-process/how-to-file-complaint-with-fec/
Who to report section 230 abuse too-
https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/filing-informal-complaint
Twitter addys are: u/FEC and u/FCC
Report everything you think is important to-
https://www.contactingcongress.org
Extra info
Reddit hides behind this -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communications_Decency_Act
When they are really this -
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Publishing+Law
How to easily avoid the ban hammer by making new accounts so you can continue up voting :)
https://freevpn.me
Step 1. VPN yourself. In windows just go to settings/network/vpn type in the ACCOUNT INFORMATION provided by your VPN, or by Free VPN. You can find the account information for Free VPN under accounts. In any other OS, get windows, what is wrong with you? Or figure it out, should be something similar to windows.
https://10minutemail.com/10MinuteMail/index.html
Step 2. An easy email account maker. You can even confirm your email address.
Step 3. Use VPN plus unlimited emails to make new accounts, and KEEP UP VOTING PEDES!!!
Step 4. If needed. Clear your cookies, it's the only other way they can track you. If your new VPN account isn't working, clear those cookies.
Step 5. Because you need this. https://getublock.com A good popup blocker.
Damn mods, you sure are slow. Where is my ban??? Faggots.
Reddit isn't a public utility, so you likely won't ever be able to force them to legally register as either a publisher or a public forum.
If push comes to shove, Reddit will just laugh at you and remind you that they owe you nothing.
You can't force a Christian baker to make sodomy cakes and you can't force Reddit to do what YOU want with THEIR servers.
We just want to shut the bakery down :)
He is pretending that reddit isn't trying to hide behind section 230 because he is an idiot.
Reddit doesn't bake fucking cakes, and bakeries don't have child porn, and interfere in our elections.
It's not illegal to have a political bias and you'll never force online platforms to become public utilities and also register as publishers or public forums.
If push comes to shove, they'll just move their servers out of the US.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Before you head to TheDonald.win why not report Reddit for election interference???
Who to report election interference too-
https://www.fec.gov/legal-resources/enforcement/complaints-process/how-to-file-complaint-with-fec/
Who to report section 230 abuse too-
https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/filing-informal-complaint
Twitter addys are: u/FEC and u/FCC
Report everything you think is important to-
https://www.contactingcongress.org
Extra info
Reddit hides behind this -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communications_Decency_Act
When they are really this -
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Publishing+Law
How to easily avoid the ban hammer by making new accounts so you can continue up voting :)
https://freevpn.me
Step 1. VPN yourself. In windows just go to settings/network/vpn type in the ACCOUNT INFORMATION provided by your VPN, or by Free VPN. You can find the account information for Free VPN under accounts. In any other OS, get windows, what is wrong with you? Or figure it out, should be something similar to windows.
https://10minutemail.com/10MinuteMail/index.html
Step 2. An easy email account maker. You can even confirm your email address.
Step 3. Use VPN plus unlimited emails to make new accounts, and KEEP UP VOTING PEDES!!!
Step 4. If needed. Clear your cookies, it's the only other way they can track you. If your new VPN account isn't working, clear those cookies.
Step 5. Because you need this. https://getublock.com A good popup blocker.
Damn mods, you sure are slow. Where is my ban??? Faggots.
And yet I'm still correct.
No matter how much you REEEEEEEEEEEE, you'll never be able to force online forums to do what you want. If push comes to shove, they'll just relocate their servers out of the US.
No amount of REEEEEEEing and screaming and crying will change this - it doesn't matter how sad you feel or how much you think Reddit owes you.
God damn cuck. Get a life, grow a spine, a find a fucking clue.
Reddit isn't an online forum any more you stupid cuck. They stopped being a forum when they actively took over our sub. You are an idiot.
The thing you are talking about is the FIRST FUCKING LINE I WROTE. WE CAN'T SUE. No shit sherlock. I go into detail about what we need to do to take away the protections that you don't understand at all. Fucking idiot.
I read your wall of blather and I stand by my comment and if push comes to shove, Reddit will just move their servers outside of the US.
You didn't read a god damn thing you idiot, or you would understand that what you are saying is wrong. Just look at the fucking section 230 website that I posted. It clearly refutes every god damn thing you have said. You are a moron.
Any regulations you would want legislated or policies from the executive that punishes online companies like reddit for being a platform vs a publisher can only result in those companies operating in a different, less hostile jurisdiction internationally. Pirate bay still exists.
Even if somehow the process of punishing these companies (by removing protections or for charges in court for interfering with an election) was done with perfect fairness and honesty, which is ridiculous to assume: it would only look partisan and stupid to the wider public as it played out with the usual narrative spin on the story. Furthermore, the whole shebang would be fruitless once a replacement for reddit is reformed, which would almost certainly gravitate over time to become another centralized pro-leftist mass media company for your everyday low information media consumer.
Lastly, on principle, I don't trust the government in any capacity to regulate these companies any more than I trust these companies to regulate themselves. I much prefer a radically free internet than one where its possible for judgement to be cast legally on one party or another for any ideological reasons. I think the most useful system is no system in terms of what we censor and fine and why.
Let reddit do what it wants, partisans gonna partisan anyways. The legal layer is not a good fit here: I think focus needs to be spent on the word-of-mouth and social layers, because there's no functional way to enforce differentition between platforms and publishers. It's far too late for that.
The worse it gets, the higher the popuplarity and demand get for an alternative to leftist stronghold media platforms. I think that's the only reasonable option in the long term: compete in the market. I hate how little control that allows for, but in a way that's the beauty of an anarchistic internet.
Lastly, how many people are on reddit who are legitimately on the fence about voting for Trump or not? It can't be that many. Surely this move is more bad than good for Trump2020 at this stage of the process.
Pirate bay doesn't host, isn't in California, isn't conducting election interference, and the owner of that site isn't public. Pirate bay also doesn't make money. What a shitty comparison. Also, DRED PIRATE ROBERTS WENT TO JAIL, he was the founder of pirate bay.
If Spez goes to jail like Dread pirate Roberts did, the next reddit would have to be underground. Idiot.
You are a moron. I stop here.
You are a serious spineless cuck. Jesus Christ. Learn something, read some of the links I posted. Don't just rant about shit you know nothing about.
I did read, I am interested in hearing other's views on my opinion, just trying to inform myself and conversate. This is my first post here. I agree with you it's probably a bad example, it's just the first thing I thought of. No reason to be so fucking hostile though, honestly. I thought I was in good company.
I'm just not a fan of weaponizing government regulation in the name of detering censorious websites, to me that just gives censors even more power to target dissenting websites in the future. I see the Right winning the culture war on the internet over time, so it seems like shooting ourselves in the foot to push for regulation or fines.
It's just, the irony is palpable, to want to take down reddit in this way.
You sounded like a concern troll, and I treated you as such. You didn't ask questions, you made statements that were wayyyyyyyyyy off base. Pirate bay was about the worst example you could give. 4chan would be much better, but 4chan doesn't have Spez.
Do you have questions? Or are you going to make ignorant statements about things you don't know about? If so, I won't treat you like a cuck.
P.S. I don't give a fuck about ANYBODIES feelings.
Yeah, I actually do not know how hosting works in terms of jurisdictions to be honest with you: you got me. I'm kind of assuming that it's possible to run or host a website from outside the US easily should something like a 230 protections revocation happen, but that's an assumption and beyond that I have no real knowledge.
Sorry, my tone probably does sound off because I really have no skill in posting, I'm a lurker. It did have the tone of concern trolling, you're completely right, but no, I am a legit poster with a dash of ignorance.
I'm a libertarian in most regards, and I'm torn between the politics of weaponizing against censorious websites and the principle of a hands-off internet. I'm uncertain. It could be that these companies operate with a kind of monopoly on mass user thresholds required to become mainstream, in which case there's a really difficult problem to untangle there that goes way beyond even the scope of this very important election. It could be that its viable to compete with them too, more and more so as they disenfranchise the demands of their users. In theory, there's relatively low operating costs to starting a new and small social media company, but there's no utility in it to users if it's small. That could be an intractable problem of internet media, and I find it fascinating. I am legitimately interested in hearing opinions on this.
I'm not offended, just pointing out that the strategy of going that aggressive on the first reply is probably a bit trigger happy if the goal is to foster communitty. I understand its hard to trust people, especially a new user liker myself with critical remarks, but still the attempt should be there to slow down the hostility until the conversation naturally escalates.
Edit: Also critical remarks from someone who's not outwardly hostile on a board rife with astroturfing and disruption from the opposition is always going to look like concern trolling, so no harm done. I'm not trolling, I just might be an idiot, basically, who knows.
Your first assumption is incorrect.
2nd assumption also incorrect. It's ridiculously hard to start up a popular social website that lasts, just ask the founder of thedonald.win and how much it costs to run this site, we don't have hardly any users yet.
How you are talking about the internet is KINGS. We don't have kings. We need to put kings spez in jail.
I don't care about feelings. I don't. Never going to. If someone comes across as a troll, I treat them as such. Another "person", idiot, was already trolling me on this same subject, and I have been spamming The_donald all day, and dealing with concern trolls over there. I made 5,500 karma today shit posting in the Donald in 24 hours. 24 fucking hours. Before my account got banned. So I've been dealing with trolls all day.
Word of advice, if you want people to take you seriously, and have a decent conversation read what they wrote. All the information was already provided. You had to click the links, but that is how you know I didn't make it up.
Comcast does not control what you see on the internet do they??? Reddit DID NOT USE TOOO... THEY DO NOW. That is why they no longer get the protections that comcast gets, because they curate, just like a publisher.
I did read what you wrote and linked. I guess my actually opinion is/was that the distinction between platforms and publishers is kind of an outdated law in the first place, from the early 90s, that made an attempt to reconcile the complete lack of information about how the internet would mature with the need for a code of objective law. It's clear these internet companies never really felt the credible threat of having their protections revoked, especially after youtube won its suit against viacom over their knowing use of copyrighted material for the purposes of making money. That's around when these companies started getting cozy with algorithmic enforcement, which is where they found their panacea to having their cake and eating it too.
So right at the start I'm not convinced that them having broken the law of using their platform as a publishing site is even worth pursuing, which is the issue with my having read your links as a way of knowing what your thoughts would be. I think the law needs refinement and measurability of what counts as curation. There are a lot of actions you can take to moderate what is on your platform that can be argued as having not been human intervened. On top of that, the whole idea of policing the law is pointless without further laws policing the keeping of records of all the kinds of actions and changes the staff had made to individual pieces of media, the algorithms, etc. Basically, in practice, any company like reddit or youtube or twitter is going to have too many tools at their disposal to obfuscate their process of tampering. We need laws to police what kinds of records a platform needs to keep to prove its neutrality before we can have a hope of actually policing that neutrality. My argument is basically we need to reform the entire 230 protections altogether, from the ground up. Using it as it is now to get our revenge on reddit for the very shitty thing they did is a bad idea, because it legitimizes an inadequate law and weaponizes it for future offices. The other alternative is to just compete with sites like reddit on the market, which was what I thought was the best course of action before this thread.
That being said, I know that saying all this shit opens me up to ridicule from people who disagree with me, and I kinda invite it. But, that being said, there's also literally no need to be hostile: if I was a concern troll I also wouldn't give the first fuck. It's casual onlookers that are going to care, and personally I do think there's value in at least appearing a little civil in that regard.
Reddit is breaking campaign finance laws. Reddit is providing pornography to children. Does youtube have pornography? No. Does youtube encourage teenagers to post pornography? No. R/Legalteens. Again, just off you example you don't know what you are talking about, and you are making statements that are incorrect like they are facts, also known as concern trolling. You need to stop that. You don't know what you are talking about, so ask questions instead of making stupid statements that make any informed individual, like myself, want to cuss you the fuck out. Does youtube have porn? NO. Is youtube censoring Donald Trump? NOOOOO. Does Youtube pay some people, including copyright holder? YESSSSSSSSS. Does Reddit pay anybody that uses the site? NOOOOOO. They link to copyrighted content in the same way pirate bay does, while making a profit, and do not pay the copyright holders. YouTube does. https://www.youtube.com/about/copyright/ < read this is you don't think youtube abides by copyright. Reddit does not pay anybody on the site that they make public. Again, your comparison is piss poor.
How is reddit breaking campaign finance laws?
What would happen if you googled Donald Trump, and no only did nothing about Donald Trump show up, but only sites promoting Communist Sanders showed up? What would happen if google took it to extremes that not only was it hard as fuck to find information about Donald Trump, but that information was generally negative? THAT WOULD BE AN ADVERTISEMENT FOR BERNIE SANDERS. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION. Reddit is already doing that, and has gone so far that only a few posts have been allowed on the Donald TODAY. This is a campaign donation of monetary value, aka free advertising, that Reddit needs to either report to the FEC, or STOP DOING BECAUSE IT IS ELECTION INTEREFERENCE.
This isn't people disagreeing with you, this is you being WRONG, MAKING BAD COMPARISONS, AND STILL TALKING LIKE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
A case like I am suggesting has not been done, but Reddit has also NOT REMOVED THE SUB REDDIT OF A POLITICAL CANDIDATE LIKE THEY JUST DID. Would it be hard to win? Yes. Might it take an act of congress? Maybe. Could the FEC and FCC look into it? Definitely. What would that take? Mass reports.
Got anymore lame assumptions that I have to waste my time with because you refuse to look up this information yourself? You have yet to provide 1 link in defense of your ideas. Why? I source what I am saying. You are just speaking off the cuff LIKE A TROLL. Provide links next time, read what I wrote, INCLUDING THE LINKS, or get talked to like a FUCKING TROLL.
Even your concept of radically free internet is gross. Radically free means spez can shut down Trump supporters on a public forum? Jesus.
In your internet the owner of Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, Instagram, google, bing, duckduckgo... Get to personally choose what is on the internet. Is that freedom because they would be kings, and you and I would have no voice? Dread Pirate Roberts went to jail for doing what Reddit does EVERY DAY, violating copyright laws. Reddit does not pay any body any copy right revenue, yet they link to copyrighted work. Just like pirate bay, whose founder went to jail. The current admins of pirate bay ARE NOT PUBLIC. THEY HIDE. They would go to jail if they didn't. Just like the founder did. It's called the deep web, and it consists of many illegal websites. Like pirate bay. But PIRATE BAY DOESN'T HOST REDDIT DOES. Big difference. Pirate bay servers are in EU. Reddit servers are in Commiefornia. Big Difference.
You are not understanding a basic law. READ THIS PLEASE. It's the law that currently protects Reddit but shouldn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communications_Decency_Act
And here are all the laws that Reddit should abide by.
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Publishing+Law
So, I'm going to reply to you, but this is actually more a reply to myself: Thanks everyone, I'm convinced. I've spent the last 30 minutes thinking about it, and I've concluded that there will never be something like 2 reddits. There is no competeing here, it's a natural breaking down point for the free market.
For example: when I want content for my gaming hobbies, I go to the subreddits for those games. There's literally no reason to have 2 reddits for anything besides politics, and getting kicked out of the primary town square to exist in a separate space is the antithesis of fair.
I'm heavily biased towards capitalistic and liberty based systems of decentralization in as many cases as possible. I'm not an extremist, I do admit there's obviously cases where the mechanisms of competition and decentralization are incongruent in terms of utility to the consumer. So, where it might seem obvious to everyone else that attacking sites (in this case reddit) that censor for being publishers makes sense, to me I demand an explanation that the market cannot handle it on its own.
Thank you for tolerating my ignorance. This is what I posted for, to get educated, and to have something new to think about.
Edit: you made lots of other good points I completely talked past, but I just wanted to explain that you've changed my mind and explain why I had my doubts. This is a complicated problem on principle, even if I might seem like a complete idiot in how I phrased my opinion, doesn't mean that this is an easy subject to think about on one's own. So I really do appreciate the posts.
Also im fucking retarded. I didnt even realize this is still the same OP. Jesus.
"I'm heavily biased towards capitalistic and liberty based systems of decentralization in as many cases as possible. I'm not an extremist, I do admit there's obviously cases where the mechanisms of competition and decentralization are incongruent in terms of utility to the consumer. So, where it might seem obvious to everyone else that attacking sites (in this case reddit) that censor for being publishers makes sense, to me I demand an explanation that the market cannot handle it on its own."
This is nonsense. You are just confused. You are not suggesting liberty in anyway, I AM!!!!!!!!!! You want Reddit to be kings that can do what they want, host (look up what hosting content means, I'm not going to link anything for you this time, google it yourself) child pornography, ban the Donald (how the fuck is that freedom for you and me), while at the same time they interfere in our election (A GOD DAMN CRIME). The thing you are talking about is 4Chan. Do you know what that is? 4Chan allows user freedom. REDDIT IS COMMUNIST. How do you not understand the difference?
If you walk into a store, are they allowed to punch you in the face? No? Why not, you are on their property? You believe in property rights don't you? You believe that you can defend your property from tresspass don't you? And yet if you walk into a store, they can not shoot you for being there. Yet in many states you could punch someone in the face for walking into your house. This is a bad example but still works to some extent as far as the difference goes... And what is that difference??? Public FORUM. REDDIT IS A PUBLIC FORUM. THEY AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO PUNCH YOU IN THE FACE JUST FOR BEING A TRUMP SUPPORTER. And they also aren't supposed to advertise for a candidate without declaring that advertisement. What stores do you know that are publicly advertising for Bernie Sanders? AND YET STORES HAVE MORE PROTECTIONS THAN REDDIT SHOULD HAVE BECAUSE THEY ARE ACTUALLY PUBLIC SPACES, REDDIT IS NOT ANYMORE, WE ALL HAD TO LEAVE BECAUSE WE SUPPORT THE PRESIDENT OF THE USA. If your local Walmart had Bernie signs up everywhere, and anti trump pamphlet handed out at the door they would have to announce that to the FEC. And if Walmart had pornography, they would have to keep children away from it. Reddit does not keep children away from pornography, instead encourages children to post pornography r/legalTEENS Teens being the key word seeing as though they have a a sub reddit called r/teenagers, and no way from keeping those teenagers from posting nudity in r/legalTEENS. Do children have the right to walk around walmart NUDE since it is PRIVATELY OWNED??? Then why are children being asked to post on Reddit in r/legalTEENS just because IT is privately owned???
I am going to add the gay cake/bakery example, are you in charge of what walmart keeps on their shelves? No. Can you demand walmart keep gay cakes for you and your husband? No. The Bakery does not have to do that either. They don't have to make you any cake, they are not your slave. That is in no way election interference either. Can we demand that Reddit produce gay cakes because we say so? No. Can we demand anything from Reddit? Not really, not without the help of the government. So, can we demand they put the Donald back to it's original state? Not really, not with out the help of the government. If your local walmart had wall to wall Bernie paraphernalia, and no Trump merchandise, could we demand they remove it? Not really, not without the help of the FEC. Would they have to remove it with the help of the FEC??? ABSOLUTELY.
QUIT MAKING STATEMENTS, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Rephrase every statement you make in the form of a question and I will gladly tell you if you are right or wrong AND WHY.