I don't think I buy this, because they've been having coronavirus outbreaks since 2003, and the lab opened up between 2015-2017. It's a hotspot for cross-species infections.
The only real evidence in favor of this leaking from the lab is the claim that it appears to include genetic material from HIV. This isn't entirely true, and the paper that made this claim was written in India and retracted due to questions surrounding their research methodologies. What they also don't mention is that the furin-like cleavage sites in SARS-CoV-2 are shared with Ebola, HIV, and some variants of influenza. In fact, it appears a number of human-specific viruses develop this at some point.
The other thing is that the lab is operated in cooperation with the university in Wuhan and a number of Westerners have worked there over the years.
I personally believe this is more an application of Hanlon's Razor than the Chinese were somehow smart enough to steal bioweapons from some other country.
Also, the "theft" story in Canada isn't completely true; the woman who was claimed to have stolen virus material actually had nothing to do with the lab and was an administrative worker who was arrested for embezzlement. I suspect this was more fake news.
Of course, if there are reputable sources that show positive proof, I'd be happy to change my opinion as I have on the severity of this virus. More data is beneficial to everyone.
Would you mind linking to info about the embezzlement charges please?
I agree with you in chalking it up to incompetence. The theories of corrupt lab workers meant to dispose of deceased specimens who instead sell the meat to wet markets tie everything together nicely. However for the sake of our own sanity I think it's necessary to apply yet another razor, namely Occam's. With this in mind it may simply be the result of a zoonotic jump because of ancient and arguably barbaric market customs. We may never know the truth. In support of the biolab theory however, here is a link that proves that China's reach is far and wide.
On another note, all these years of buying their cheap exports have empowered them and now we pay the proverbial price. It's as if the monetary difference we saved then was actually some kind of debt that we are paying back now...
I'm wrong, I think. This is what I get from posting via memory rather than confirming things and posting sources, which makes me guilty of the same intellectual deficiencies as those suggesting this was engineered and released--also without evidence.
So, to rectify this, you unfortunately must suffer a verbose post as penance for this oversight.
Anyway, in my defense, I'm either looking at an incorrect article or it wasn't embezzlement (and I possible extrapolated from "administrative issues" to that conclusion). Unfortunately, as it's been at least a month since I found the original source, I can't be certain this following is it. It's entirely plausible that I've gotten this confused with a couple of other cases, but as I've seen some people claim there's been two separate instances involving similar labs, maybe even the same one, I can't rule anything out.
This is one of the insidious things about conspiracy. It's easy to levy all manner of charges, but it's difficult to demonstrate the truth. Likewise, it's impossible to demonstrate truth to those who believe in such conspiracy.
You can start here, which I think may be the progenitor for some of the coverage of the claims originally started in conservative media by ZeroHedge which then takes you here and here. I don't think there's a clear answer to this that will satisfy the conspiracists, because she was apparently an immunology researcher. Though, caveat emptor, as you will see.
Important takeaways:
Dr. Xiangguo Qiu, her husband Keding Cheng and an unknown number of her students from China were removed from Canada's only level-4 lab on July 5, CBC News has learned.
...
Security access for the couple and the Chinese students was revoked, according to sources who work at the lab and do not want to be identified because they fear consequences for speaking out.
...
Sources say this comes several months after IT specialists for the NML entered Qiu's office after-hours and replaced her computer. Her regular trips to China also started being denied.
Now, also relying on Occam's razor as suggested, it's unlikely she smuggled out samples or other information related to infectious diseases for the purposes of engineering. The claims I've seen from ZeroHedge et al push the narrative that the Chinese received data--or samples--for engineering viruses with the purpose of weaponizing them. The claims tie this to HIV, but this seems unlikely since it appears her expertise lies primarily with Ebola. I'm not sure how the conspiracists extrapolated this fact to HIV, but it makes absolutely zero sense to me that a researcher involved with Ebola would be smuggling coronaviruses modified with receptors from HIV. (And actually, the only similarities have nothing to do with receptors but are actually furins.)
If I could suggest something to them, it's that they should switch their argument to the furin-cleavage sites shared among HIV, Ebola, this coronavirus, and others. However, since conspiracists tend more often than not to focus on spreading an idea, they don't often consider facts and circumstances of the origin.
If this is the case I'm mistaken about, and I haven't much doubt that it is, I would assume that the reason her clearances were revoked may be tied more specifically to corporate espionage. Remember: China wants to position itself at the center of science and technology, among many other things, and if they could "beat" the Canadians to vaccines and other developments for certain infectious diseases, they undoubtedly feel this would bolster their prestige. Of course, this won't answer the conspiracy, which will simply shift to the argument that they could "use the information for a vaccine to work around it."
But, moving goalposts isn't something I'm terribly unaccustomed to being as I've debated flat earthers for years much to my own personal amusement.
Anyway, I do agree with you regarding other possible exposures. I used to subscribe to the idea that it might've been a corrupt employee trying to make a buck off the market by selling the meat, but I'm not entirely sure I've remained convinced. While bats (horseshoe bats in particular) are substantial reservoirs for coronaviruses, those viruses are often not able to jump to human hosts without an intermediary called an "amplifier host." It's my understanding the pangolin is believed to be the most likely source, as its ACE2 receptors are most similar to our own, one of the papers I have linked to in the last few days (again) discusses these origins in better detail (pre-print warning). I believe they mention that the last SARS outbreak involved a virus that shared more in common with civet coronaviruses than pangolins, and the civet was believed to be the amplifier host. Consequently, I'm not sure SARS-CoV-2 can be said to originate from pangolins with any degree of certainty.
Fun trivia: According to a manuscript (not yet peer-reviewed) "[SARS-CoV-2] RBD likely recognizes ACE2 from pigs, ferrets, cats, orangutans, monkeys and humans with similar efficiency, because these ACE2 molecules are identical or similar in the critical virus-binding residues."
I think we're on the same page in terms of articles. Discussions like this can only help others clear the fog. Thanks, keep it up!!
Agreed, though it's my fault for having posted an assumption based on memory of what I thought I had read.
I really need to remember to focus strictly on facts, rather than speculation or fallible memory, though I think it doesn't matter. Regardless of which is fact or fiction, it doesn't really affect the principle that you're correct in that this was unlikely something nefarious and much more likely either a deliberate act by someone trying to make some money on the side through questionable means (because China) or just shear chance.
I don't think I buy this, because they've been having coronavirus outbreaks since 2003, and the lab opened up between 2015-2017. It's a hotspot for cross-species infections.
The only real evidence in favor of this leaking from the lab is the claim that it appears to include genetic material from HIV. This isn't entirely true, and the paper that made this claim was written in India and retracted due to questions surrounding their research methodologies. What they also don't mention is that the furin-like cleavage sites in SARS-CoV-2 are shared with Ebola, HIV, and some variants of influenza. In fact, it appears a number of human-specific viruses develop this at some point.
The other thing is that the lab is operated in cooperation with the university in Wuhan and a number of Westerners have worked there over the years.
I personally believe this is more an application of Hanlon's Razor than the Chinese were somehow smart enough to steal bioweapons from some other country.
Also, the "theft" story in Canada isn't completely true; the woman who was claimed to have stolen virus material actually had nothing to do with the lab and was an administrative worker who was arrested for embezzlement. I suspect this was more fake news.
Of course, if there are reputable sources that show positive proof, I'd be happy to change my opinion as I have on the severity of this virus. More data is beneficial to everyone.
Would you mind linking to info about the embezzlement charges please?
I agree with you in chalking it up to incompetence. The theories of corrupt lab workers meant to dispose of deceased specimens who instead sell the meat to wet markets tie everything together nicely. However for the sake of our own sanity I think it's necessary to apply yet another razor, namely Occam's. With this in mind it may simply be the result of a zoonotic jump because of ancient and arguably barbaric market customs. We may never know the truth. In support of the biolab theory however, here is a link that proves that China's reach is far and wide.
On another note, all these years of buying their cheap exports have empowered them and now we pay the proverbial price. It's as if the monetary difference we saved then was actually some kind of debt that we are paying back now...
I'm wrong, I think. This is what I get from posting via memory rather than confirming things and posting sources, which makes me guilty of the same intellectual deficiencies as those suggesting this was engineered and released--also without evidence.
So, to rectify this, you unfortunately must suffer a verbose post as penance for this oversight.
Anyway, in my defense, I'm either looking at an incorrect article or it wasn't embezzlement (and I possible extrapolated from "administrative issues" to that conclusion). Unfortunately, as it's been at least a month since I found the original source, I can't be certain this following is it. It's entirely plausible that I've gotten this confused with a couple of other cases, but as I've seen some people claim there's been two separate instances involving similar labs, maybe even the same one, I can't rule anything out.
This is one of the insidious things about conspiracy. It's easy to levy all manner of charges, but it's difficult to demonstrate the truth. Likewise, it's impossible to demonstrate truth to those who believe in such conspiracy.
You can start here, which I think may be the progenitor for some of the coverage of the claims originally started in conservative media by ZeroHedge which then takes you here and here. I don't think there's a clear answer to this that will satisfy the conspiracists, because she was apparently an immunology researcher. Though, caveat emptor, as you will see.
Important takeaways:
...
...
Now, also relying on Occam's razor as suggested, it's unlikely she smuggled out samples or other information related to infectious diseases for the purposes of engineering. The claims I've seen from ZeroHedge et al push the narrative that the Chinese received data--or samples--for engineering viruses with the purpose of weaponizing them. The claims tie this to HIV, but this seems unlikely since it appears her expertise lies primarily with Ebola. I'm not sure how the conspiracists extrapolated this fact to HIV, but it makes absolutely zero sense to me that a researcher involved with Ebola would be smuggling coronaviruses modified with receptors from HIV. (And actually, the only similarities have nothing to do with receptors but are actually furins.)
If I could suggest something to them, it's that they should switch their argument to the furin-cleavage sites shared among HIV, Ebola, this coronavirus, and others. However, since conspiracists tend more often than not to focus on spreading an idea, they don't often consider facts and circumstances of the origin.
If this is the case I'm mistaken about, and I haven't much doubt that it is, I would assume that the reason her clearances were revoked may be tied more specifically to corporate espionage. Remember: China wants to position itself at the center of science and technology, among many other things, and if they could "beat" the Canadians to vaccines and other developments for certain infectious diseases, they undoubtedly feel this would bolster their prestige. Of course, this won't answer the conspiracy, which will simply shift to the argument that they could "use the information for a vaccine to work around it."
But, moving goalposts isn't something I'm terribly unaccustomed to being as I've debated flat earthers for years much to my own personal amusement.
Anyway, I do agree with you regarding other possible exposures. I used to subscribe to the idea that it might've been a corrupt employee trying to make a buck off the market by selling the meat, but I'm not entirely sure I've remained convinced. While bats (horseshoe bats in particular) are substantial reservoirs for coronaviruses, those viruses are often not able to jump to human hosts without an intermediary called an "amplifier host." It's my understanding the pangolin is believed to be the most likely source, as its ACE2 receptors are most similar to our own, one of the papers I have linked to in the last few days (again) discusses these origins in better detail (pre-print warning). I believe they mention that the last SARS outbreak involved a virus that shared more in common with civet coronaviruses than pangolins, and the civet was believed to be the amplifier host. Consequently, I'm not sure SARS-CoV-2 can be said to originate from pangolins with any degree of certainty.
Fun trivia: According to a manuscript (not yet peer-reviewed) "[SARS-CoV-2] RBD likely recognizes ACE2 from pigs, ferrets, cats, orangutans, monkeys and humans with similar efficiency, because these ACE2 molecules are identical or similar in the critical virus-binding residues."
Nevertheless, it does mean the meat market is the most plausible source, but the first recorded patient there was likely a fish and shrimp vendor. That she was infected elsewhere is likely, and apparently wasn't the only one to be treated in short order.
We'll probably never know.
Great info on the furins and such, I had no idea about that. The poor pangolins... Adorable creatures in my opinion.
I think we're on the same page in terms of articles. Discussions like this can only help others clear the fog. Thanks, keep it up!!
Agreed, though it's my fault for having posted an assumption based on memory of what I thought I had read.
I really need to remember to focus strictly on facts, rather than speculation or fallible memory, though I think it doesn't matter. Regardless of which is fact or fiction, it doesn't really affect the principle that you're correct in that this was unlikely something nefarious and much more likely either a deliberate act by someone trying to make some money on the side through questionable means (because China) or just shear chance.