Another agnostic here. Happy Easter to all our Christian pedes.
Whether one believes in God, Jesus, the Bible, etc or not, I think one thing we can all agree on is that traditional Christian values and morals are an absolutely crucial and fundamental building block to a prosperous and stable civilization
lol I was literally just making this point in another thread.
Agnostic is somewhat easier to understand. Atheism makes zero sense. I say that as a philosophy and history major that went to a very liberal arts college where I was surrounded by atheists. I always assume it's just a phase. There's literally nothing to be gained by being an atheist. And no matter how many atheists blabber about not needing religion or a man in the sky to be morally sound, I have yet to see an atheist homeless shelter, drug addiction clinic, soup kitchen/food bank and men, women, and children's shelters.
I've heard it explained this way: some people collect stamps. They are stamp collectors. Some people don't collect stamps. Not only are they not stamp collectors, they aren't non-stamp collectors either. This is literally the best explanation of it that I encountered, and I did participate in a talk forum for a few years dealing with a lot of these issues.
So an atheist is like that. There are also lots of categories that they've come up with that people feel more strongly about. Rarely have I encountered someone who considers themselves a militant atheist, for example; that's something entirely different. They'll usually consider themselves an anti-theist, but that's a much stronger position than simply being an atheist.
Pascal's wager doesn't really have anything to do with it. Another thing that doesn't work with atheists is the idea of no morality without practicing a religion. They have some excellent points on both, that you could probably benefit from hearing what they have to say. Plenty of atheists, here. I bet you could get some input.
Everyday experience varies tremendously from person to person. I couldn't possibly claim God doesn't exist, due to my experience. Others have no experience with God, and can be an honest atheist. I'm not sure why you want to bring authors into it, can they express the perspective of an atheist that you've failed to grasp?
I know that if I wasn't a Christian I would be the biggest hedonist I could. If there is no God then I am God. No reason to actual “be” good” I just need to look good for the societal red tape.
I told this to an atheist once and he thought I was crazy.
Pride comes before the fall- you have effectively made yourself your own martyr in your belief system. There's nothing wrong with being a believer for seemingly selfish or non altruistic reasons.
You aren't- but many an atheist believes that they don't need to do good works or serve their fellow man because of a book. But yet, many fail to do jackshit for their fellow man without a clear incentive.
And hypocritically, when the shit hits the fan, they have no problem leeching off of Christian goodwill and services.
Edit: You're an intellectual lightweight. Happy Easter!
Happy Easter to you and your families!! From an agnostic who does his best to embrace good Christian values I learned in Church/Sunday School/Summer Camps.
Sorry for your hurt, man. The most obvious case made for Christianity is the power of holiness, and the most powerful case against is made by the hypocrisy of its members.
Same boat as you here, former Catholic, now agnostic/maybe atheist.
The one thing in the back of my mind that I've been open to seeing is the Incorruptibles in Italy. They say there's saints bodies that haven't decomposed for centuries.
As much as I love the scientific approach...if those exist it would blow my brain, a bit.
I’d like to challenge your thought that God as loving is demonstrably false. What if the world we see is not the world at all. What if, like the Matrix, everything is a shadow of the truth. That we can’t see clearly due to a haze over everything. That we need a new perspective in order to understand. What if we are really the rebels and are so deep in our rebellion that we don’t see it? Im not saying that is easy, but what if?
I hear you and you have good points. I think everyone should question what they believe and why they believe it.
Deep questions require deep answers. While I could attempt to answer you in a paragraph I think you are really looking for something more comprehensive. Ill point you to someone more well spoken than me.
I suggest you look into CS Lewis Space Trilogy. Book 2, Perelandra, attempts to answer a lot of your questions; but you need to read the books in order. These are some of the deepest most profound things I have read. Its obvious you've put a lot of thinking into your questions. You cant expect any less effort in order to find answers.
I spent 3 years as a hardline atheist from being 23 years a Christian.
Atheism sent me on a path investigating the very purpose and source of consciousness, the caveats of quantum physics as well as astrophysics, studying everything from quasars to quarks, from meditation to The Double-Slit Experiment.
The end of the road for me, where I found everything I had assumed up to that point to be completely wrong, was dabbling with the extraordinarily eerie psychedelic DMT, released in the brain in massive quantities when you die, in smaller quantities when you sleep, and tiny quantities ever-active in the brains of the autistic.
I had done LSD. I had done mushrooms. I had done 25-i. All in the name of exploring consciousness, I mastered all of these substances. DMT was, how shall I put it... Different. Worldview-shattering. Hyper-real.
Skeptics all over the world, even with advanced degrees and a professional opposition to DMT-related claims, have flipped complete 180s after trying DMT. It's very easy to say "you were high" but that apathetic argument holds very little water. Common themes include users reporting "an experience more real than life itself," powerful deep and profound encounters with extraterrestrial life, and reporting transportation into other dimensions. An experience entirely unlike LSD and other psychedelics, it makes all the others look like toys.
Then there is ayahuasca. DMT × 10-12 HOURS.
This experience wiped away my atheism with newfound Gnosis. I am now subject to the burden of knowledge which is commonly referred to as Gnosticism, and for the sake of simplicity I describe it as being a witch. True witches I discovered are indeed Gnostics, and I also gained the knowledge that Gnostics are hiding in plain sight in the ranks of churches across the globe.
The truth concerning spiritual things is so hopelessly weird and unbelievable and downright unrelated to living your daily life that it is far better that a person participate in any one of the "positive" religions, and steer away from all judgment of others. Asking questions gets you where I am. I wish I had never questioned my faith at all. Having all the answers I need, I wish I didn't have them at all.
We are in the middle of a terrifying battlefield of the war of good versus evil, a struggle where simple knowledge of the threat enlists you as a soldier for life. Knowledge ruins every hope you ever had for a normal life as you begrudgingly join the ranks of people you already knew about but see differently going all the way from John Lennon to Nikola Tesla. Gnosticism, from the perspective of a Gnostic, is plainly visible in many aspects of culture, music, and religion... You'll see many "spiritualist" movements, but they all stop short of the insane truth and stray into nonsense, each in their own way.
I still go to my parents' Christian church at every possible opportunity. They are doing what is good at these churches, that is pursuing the Light, though they do not know precisely the profound depth of what they are doing. Their cute faith.... But Gnostics enjoy the company of the religious very much. As a Gnostic you will quickly notice how, not having the time nor capacity to explain all of existence to all of the people, Gnostics who were seen as "prophets" founded pretty much every religion ever. Jesus was massively Gnostic himself as can clearly be seen even by reading the much-played-with and heavily edited Bible. The pattern seems to be Gnostic person attempts to establish a palatable version of the truth, people believe in the Gnostic and call him a prophet, some will even mistakenly worship them, and eventually someone else will twist this established religion for their own gain.
TL;DR: Gnosticism was the death of my atheism and nowadays I just wish I'd stayed my ass in church.
You don't need to take DMT to have a DMT spiritual experience.
Intense Meditation, Binaural Beats, Wim-Hoff breathing, Monroe Institute, Astral projection, Animal communication and Near-Death Experiences are all ways to dip into the spiritual world.
However, I don’t recommend near death experiences.
I do not recommend intentionally entering into the DMT experience at all... But for those who have experienced the death of their faith from digging too deeply into their religion, it can be helpful to see behind the curtain.
From agnostic/atheist now Christian...
Right back at You Brother!
Happy Easter!
Another agnostic here. Happy Easter to all our Christian pedes.
lol I was literally just making this point in another thread.
Thank you. And as a devout believer - I agree with you!
Agnostic is somewhat easier to understand. Atheism makes zero sense. I say that as a philosophy and history major that went to a very liberal arts college where I was surrounded by atheists. I always assume it's just a phase. There's literally nothing to be gained by being an atheist. And no matter how many atheists blabber about not needing religion or a man in the sky to be morally sound, I have yet to see an atheist homeless shelter, drug addiction clinic, soup kitchen/food bank and men, women, and children's shelters.
I've heard it explained this way: some people collect stamps. They are stamp collectors. Some people don't collect stamps. Not only are they not stamp collectors, they aren't non-stamp collectors either. This is literally the best explanation of it that I encountered, and I did participate in a talk forum for a few years dealing with a lot of these issues.
So an atheist is like that. There are also lots of categories that they've come up with that people feel more strongly about. Rarely have I encountered someone who considers themselves a militant atheist, for example; that's something entirely different. They'll usually consider themselves an anti-theist, but that's a much stronger position than simply being an atheist.
Pascal's wager is fairly sufficient and so is the works of CS Lewis, Thomas Aquinas- and your everyday experience.
Pascal's wager doesn't really have anything to do with it. Another thing that doesn't work with atheists is the idea of no morality without practicing a religion. They have some excellent points on both, that you could probably benefit from hearing what they have to say. Plenty of atheists, here. I bet you could get some input.
Everyday experience varies tremendously from person to person. I couldn't possibly claim God doesn't exist, due to my experience. Others have no experience with God, and can be an honest atheist. I'm not sure why you want to bring authors into it, can they express the perspective of an atheist that you've failed to grasp?
Pascal's wager doesn't have anything to do with it? Really? Let's say you're an atheist- what good does being "right" do for you?
I know that if I wasn't a Christian I would be the biggest hedonist I could. If there is no God then I am God. No reason to actual “be” good” I just need to look good for the societal red tape. I told this to an atheist once and he thought I was crazy.
Pride comes before the fall- you have effectively made yourself your own martyr in your belief system. There's nothing wrong with being a believer for seemingly selfish or non altruistic reasons.
Find me an atheist shelter, food bank, or charity that works with the community.
Edit: Sorry, but atheists don't do dick for charitable contributions that Christians, Jews, and Muslims do. It's not even an argument.
But I sure have shit witnessed atheists have no problem utilizing Christian services.
You aren't- but many an atheist believes that they don't need to do good works or serve their fellow man because of a book. But yet, many fail to do jackshit for their fellow man without a clear incentive.
And hypocritically, when the shit hits the fan, they have no problem leeching off of Christian goodwill and services.
Edit: You're an intellectual lightweight. Happy Easter!
How absolutely dare you!....
Happy Easter
Happy Easter to you and your families!! From an agnostic who does his best to embrace good Christian values I learned in Church/Sunday School/Summer Camps.
Sorry for your hurt, man. The most obvious case made for Christianity is the power of holiness, and the most powerful case against is made by the hypocrisy of its members.
Don’t follow men. You will always be disappointed. Only follow Jesus.
Same boat as you here, former Catholic, now agnostic/maybe atheist.
The one thing in the back of my mind that I've been open to seeing is the Incorruptibles in Italy. They say there's saints bodies that haven't decomposed for centuries.
As much as I love the scientific approach...if those exist it would blow my brain, a bit.
I’d like to challenge your thought that God as loving is demonstrably false. What if the world we see is not the world at all. What if, like the Matrix, everything is a shadow of the truth. That we can’t see clearly due to a haze over everything. That we need a new perspective in order to understand. What if we are really the rebels and are so deep in our rebellion that we don’t see it? Im not saying that is easy, but what if?
I hear you and you have good points. I think everyone should question what they believe and why they believe it.
Deep questions require deep answers. While I could attempt to answer you in a paragraph I think you are really looking for something more comprehensive. Ill point you to someone more well spoken than me.
I suggest you look into CS Lewis Space Trilogy. Book 2, Perelandra, attempts to answer a lot of your questions; but you need to read the books in order. These are some of the deepest most profound things I have read. Its obvious you've put a lot of thinking into your questions. You cant expect any less effort in order to find answers.
I spent 3 years as a hardline atheist from being 23 years a Christian.
Atheism sent me on a path investigating the very purpose and source of consciousness, the caveats of quantum physics as well as astrophysics, studying everything from quasars to quarks, from meditation to The Double-Slit Experiment.
The end of the road for me, where I found everything I had assumed up to that point to be completely wrong, was dabbling with the extraordinarily eerie psychedelic DMT, released in the brain in massive quantities when you die, in smaller quantities when you sleep, and tiny quantities ever-active in the brains of the autistic.
I had done LSD. I had done mushrooms. I had done 25-i. All in the name of exploring consciousness, I mastered all of these substances. DMT was, how shall I put it... Different. Worldview-shattering. Hyper-real.
Skeptics all over the world, even with advanced degrees and a professional opposition to DMT-related claims, have flipped complete 180s after trying DMT. It's very easy to say "you were high" but that apathetic argument holds very little water. Common themes include users reporting "an experience more real than life itself," powerful deep and profound encounters with extraterrestrial life, and reporting transportation into other dimensions. An experience entirely unlike LSD and other psychedelics, it makes all the others look like toys.
Then there is ayahuasca. DMT × 10-12 HOURS.
This experience wiped away my atheism with newfound Gnosis. I am now subject to the burden of knowledge which is commonly referred to as Gnosticism, and for the sake of simplicity I describe it as being a witch. True witches I discovered are indeed Gnostics, and I also gained the knowledge that Gnostics are hiding in plain sight in the ranks of churches across the globe.
The truth concerning spiritual things is so hopelessly weird and unbelievable and downright unrelated to living your daily life that it is far better that a person participate in any one of the "positive" religions, and steer away from all judgment of others. Asking questions gets you where I am. I wish I had never questioned my faith at all. Having all the answers I need, I wish I didn't have them at all.
We are in the middle of a terrifying battlefield of the war of good versus evil, a struggle where simple knowledge of the threat enlists you as a soldier for life. Knowledge ruins every hope you ever had for a normal life as you begrudgingly join the ranks of people you already knew about but see differently going all the way from John Lennon to Nikola Tesla. Gnosticism, from the perspective of a Gnostic, is plainly visible in many aspects of culture, music, and religion... You'll see many "spiritualist" movements, but they all stop short of the insane truth and stray into nonsense, each in their own way.
I still go to my parents' Christian church at every possible opportunity. They are doing what is good at these churches, that is pursuing the Light, though they do not know precisely the profound depth of what they are doing. Their cute faith.... But Gnostics enjoy the company of the religious very much. As a Gnostic you will quickly notice how, not having the time nor capacity to explain all of existence to all of the people, Gnostics who were seen as "prophets" founded pretty much every religion ever. Jesus was massively Gnostic himself as can clearly be seen even by reading the much-played-with and heavily edited Bible. The pattern seems to be Gnostic person attempts to establish a palatable version of the truth, people believe in the Gnostic and call him a prophet, some will even mistakenly worship them, and eventually someone else will twist this established religion for their own gain.
TL;DR: Gnosticism was the death of my atheism and nowadays I just wish I'd stayed my ass in church.
You don't need to take DMT to have a DMT spiritual experience.
Intense Meditation, Binaural Beats, Wim-Hoff breathing, Monroe Institute, Astral projection, Animal communication and Near-Death Experiences are all ways to dip into the spiritual world.
However, I don’t recommend near death experiences.
This is true.
I do not recommend intentionally entering into the DMT experience at all... But for those who have experienced the death of their faith from digging too deeply into their religion, it can be helpful to see behind the curtain.
Thank you for this.
<3 <3 <3