I agree with the gist of your post. However, there are some things to consider -
When your standard approach to every fire is to put it out with water, then you are in for a big surprise the first time you have a grease fire.
Doctors panicked, and used what had worked before. Patients were collapsing without any underlying explanation and doctors were throwing everything, including the kitchen sink at the problem.
I'll explain it from a different point of view. Imagine that you noticed the that one of your vehicle's tires was low. You put some air in it. The next day it is low again. You put some air in it and check for a leak, maybe check the valve. The air continues to get low, each day becoming worse. At what point would you think that putting air in the tire was causing the problem?
That's what doctors were facing here. The usual V/Q mismatch (ventilation vs perfusion) rules that they normally used to fix someone's oxygen levels just weren't working. Doctors aren't engineers, and different patients have all sorts of differing reactions to treatments, but many of the basics still apply. When those basics aren't working, it's a completely new game with unknown rules.
The one real potential problem here is that they continued to treat primarily with ventilators for so long, after they weren't seeing some of the patients recover in a few weeks. At that point, they should have been questioning all the methods being used, no matter what the methods were.
I dunno perhaps Doctors are too stuck on convention or perhaps their schooling has failed them to see viable alternatives to pharmaceuticals. We exalt them in society but this only leaves us scrambling when they are wrong or have been politically corrupted. They aren't selfless or any of the higher virtues we extoll, most are in it for the money and apparently a hell of a lot of them will drop their oath to their patients to serve an oath to their license holders or against threats to their pocketbooks.
This is a huge part of the problem. Doctors treat patients in ways that are documented to work, because they can point to the documentation and say "look it isn't malpractice, it's universally accepted standard of care!"
Doctors have to do a lot of stupid shit to make sure their asses are covered in case someone doesn't get the result they were expecting and decides to sue.
Are you suggesting that the pharmaceutical industry should be or currently is in charge of health education? Because that's kind of right in that they are. And no, they shouldn't be.
Yeah they indirectly control what is taught through lobbying. They need to sell their drugs so they lobby and get the regs changed. New docs get taught new regs and better treatments are thrown to the wayside because their greed.
I'm a surgery resident. I graduated top of my class in a top 20 college at age 21, and I'll finish all my training at age 37. For many years I raked in debt, and when I wasn't taking in debt, then 50-70k a year raising a family of 3 kids.
I keep in touch with my friends from college - if they didn't pursue training then they were making nearly 6 figures when done, and easily climbed to 100k-200k for the 16 years while I trained.
I'll probably make 500k when I'm done. It'll be a nice reward. But I calculated I'll be 51 before I even out with my friends that started working right after college.
If you think doctors go into this profession to make money, we are either incredibly stupid at making money, or we aren't doing this to make money.
You can also see why people like Bernie that say doctors earn too much are infuriating
Edited to also add... Those training years are lost, you work 80+ hours a week, thankfully I have a supportive wife but you don't get them back
Keep at it, brotha, I know how hard it is (not from personal experience, but my brother). I always chuckle when people rag on doctors, and especially when they say they "do it for the money." Like you, my brother took on massive debt, just recently finished his residency and fellowship, has boatloads of school debt to pay off, and doesn't even make all that much yet, and is just about 40. Won't be a long while before he's "in the green," so to speak on his investment. Just the amount of work the poor bastard had to put in, I don't think I saw him sleep for about 15 years, constantly buried in a book, it's just insane. I've so much respect for anyone that can didicate that much time, effort, money, and just general sacrafice, for something just because it's a calling, in a way. For my brother, he just knew it was what he wanted to do, set his sights on it early in high school, and busted his ass to do it, but he sure as shit didn't do it for the money lol (not to say he won't be comfortable in some time, but it's hardly the route anyone would go if money is the only goal)
Literally nobody attacks doctors compensation not even Bernie. Insurance companies are usually the target of progressive attacks. But even in that argument doctors have a huge part through billing.
I can imagine that if you stay on the straight and narrow as a doctor you may not become as rich as possible. But since there's so much opportunity getting that pharma money I'm pretty sure it's skewed the ethics for your entire profession from top down.
Where are the voices of health professionals speaking counter to propaganda against treatments like hydroxychloroquine, ignoring studies that directly counter claims the misleadia makes or speaking out for the patients who are waiting for cancer or surgeries they need but can't because the hospital cancelled electives? I feel there should be an ethical requirement that you temper down inflammatory disinformation and try to be less alarmist for everybodies sake, something in your bed side manners etiquette. I see the articles here and while that's helpful our cause really needs your accredited voices speaking directly against politicized organizations giving this distorted health advice. Write a letter to your newspaper and speak out against politicized health and science policy. I dunno something more than following orders, please do the right things here.
Doctors are not that smart. I've gone to school with many of them and have had enough contact with doctors to know this. They stop learning as soon as they're out of school it seems. Most of them I think, do not have the ability to assimilate newer medical information on their own.
The problem with this profession is you are trained to memorize information rather than logical thinking.
Eh... plenty of pulmonologists definitely noticed the odd aspects of the patient presentation that varied from traditional ARDS. Your everyday critical care doc might not notice though
People used to argue with me when I claimed that the only continuing education doctors get is from pharma reps on golf junkets. Now they finish my thought when I bring it up.
Logical thinking doesnt work that well with the human body - we aren't as smart as God our creator - I can think of many examples when logic failed us. we need to do research and study our outcomes
The logic part is for problem solving. That is how they found that Hydroxycholoroquine helps. Problem is DEM/SM is fighting tooth and nail to keep solutions away from this problem. The lack of logic on the part of health care providers make a lot of them follow in the footsteps of DEM/SM. The good thing is there are some that have critical thinking skills, and would actually look at and comprehend the data provided instead of dismissing everything as anecdotal evidence. What is a case study.
If you can't see that pharma has taken over the healthcare industry with dangerous consequences to humanity as a whole then you've just not been looking or you're shilling for financial interest. There a reason the worlds richest man left his money maker computer software operation to suddenly turn to marketing and manufacturing vaccines. Individuals deserve to have access to whatever healthcare they need but HEALTHCARE POLICY AND EDUCATION should not be wholly funded by Merck, DuPont, Pfizer and their like and their medical authority absolutely should be questioned.
Also the use of hydroxychloroquine is obviously being pushed back by the medical industry, would you compare it to healing crystals? Because that's what the generalized healthcare industry would seem to be saying. Why are you here in this forum again?
I have been reading that 90-95% on ventilators die anyway for at least a month now. And reading from doctors saying that the ventilators make it WORSE. They actually stress your lungs more when they are already sore/hurting.
I don't think every doctor goes around trying to kill people but goddamn has this ever exposed how useless our medical systems generally are...
You realize that the point of ventilators is to deliver oxygen right? Rona causes ARDS which essentially fills the tiny sacks in your lungs with junk and decreases the surface area to absorb oxygen. Not all to much to do for that
Your lack of understanding masquerading as condescension is staggering.
You realize that the point of ventilators is to deliver oxygen right?
The point of ventilators is to deliver a pressurized gas. In most cases that gas is actually just room air because your alveoli are fine, they're just obstructed, as you say. They can be modified to deliver pressurized oxygen instead of just room air. This is important because:
Rona causes ARDS
Yes.
which essentially fills the tiny sacks in your lungs with junk
No. That is only one of many possible reasons for ARDS. In the case of corona, that does not happen. Corona causes ARDS through low oxygenation due to hemoglobin destruction. Your lungs don't have gunk in them. It's your blood that doesn't have what it needs to carry oxygen. So pressurized ventilators pushing room air didn't help at all.
On top of that, hemoglobin breakdown leads to free iron in your blood, which damages the alveoli that are already delicate as hell. When they are damaged, a pressurized ventilator can cause them to rupture, which is why ventilators are actually doing more harm than good and you have such high death rates with ventilated patients. The ventilators are making the problem worse.
However, low pressure ventilators that are modified to push oxygen at low pressure rather than room air at high pressure work very well, especially combined with blood transfusions.
Or you could just use anti-malarial medication early coughhydroxychloroquinecough and prevent the hemoglobin breakdown in the first place.
Corona causes ARDS through low oxygenation due to hemoglobin destruction.
On top of that, hemoglobin breakdown leads to free iron in your blood, which damages the alveoli that are already delicate as hell.
AFAIK there isn't any clinical evidence for this and the paper that made this claim was based on protein simulation and modeling techniques. This was not based on clinical evidence:
The results showed the ORF8 and surface glycoprotein could bind to the porphyrin, respectively.
(Emphasis mine.)
The other side of the coin is what damages the alveoli is that SARS-CoV-2 attacks the type II pneumocytes then inflammatory cytokines precipitate fluid entering the lung tissue.
Old news. The virus has a completely different effect on the lungs than the classic pneumonia.
At first, the lungs are +- alright if somewhat damaged by Covid, but people are still hypoxic. The latest news from post-mortems in Germany and Switzerland is that the micro-circulation is all fucked in the alveoles, meaning that the oxygen is getting into the lungs, but isn't getting into the blood and you need to improve that instead of pumping in air that can't go into the blood anyway.
Russia is testing breathing really hot helium to try and unfuck the circulation. Others are trying NO gas. Other still are trying hyperbaric chambers.
We don't know if it works yet, but we do know that the ventilators don't really work in this first stage of the disease when your lung tissue isn't too far gone yet but the blood oxygen level is already really low.
Fyi, This is grossly oversimplifying things. Ventilators absolutely work to treat hypoxia, which is why they were picked in the first place. There are many causes of hypoxia though, and traditional ARDS strategy was the wrong choice for this disease process that still isn't fully understood. There are characteristic lab abnormalities that happen and major concerns of DIC. Some initially claimed it was a hemoglobin binding issue, but that fails to explain low PaO2/FiO2 ratios - since PaO2 is the dissolved O2 in plasma and doesn't involve hemoglobin as a factor. There is clearly a perfusion related V/Q abnormality
Hypoxemia and hypoxia are not the same, but one is usually the cause of the other. Ventilators treat hypoxia by resolving hypoxemia. I didnt disregard what you said.
You might have missed it but there are a bunch of posts on here with information from some of the few doctors that are actually smart.
The muscles that control breathing work fine, they do not need the ventilator for that purpose. Yet doctors are setting them at a pressure to breathe for them, thus crushing aveoli. Damaged lungs folks.
The virus decouples heme group from hemoglobin, so now your blood has less ability to transport oxygen. You have to wait for new hemoglobin to be created now. (It takes cancer patients a couple weeks to recover levels after a treatment) The decoupling of heme causes another problem since free roaming metals poisons organs.
Hydroxychloroquine/zinc will stop the virus from replicating, giving your immune system time to fight off the virus before it sends the patient into organ failure.
IT IS A CRIME WHAT DEM/SM IS DOING TO DISCREDIT THIS DRUG.
We are losing more lives than necessary because of this political bullshit.
I saw a physician interviewed on OAN last night, who was saying there's a big problem with blood clotting in COVID-19 patients, and that this wasn't recognized at first. Sometimes it's causing strokes -- in a few cases that was the first thing that sent a patient to a hospital -- but also causing clotting elsewhere (I would assume including lungs, but I didn't catch the whole segment). A couple of days ago, I read about an actor who had a leg amputated due to a clot which developed while he was hospitalized for coronavirus.
Yes, and all physicians know that. This is something different. In addition to seeing unusual clotting in already hospitalized patients, they're seeing it in young healthy people upon admission, including a couple of cases where a stroke was what prompted them to be taken to a hospital, and they had not yet had any other symtpoms of COVID-19.
Some were and are quietly using it. One doctor I know said at the very beginning "That shit works, and I'm using it for my patients. If they want to fire me, then go ahead, I don't care."
Eighty-eight percent of the 320 covid-19 patients on ventilators who were tracked in the study died. That compares with the roughly 80 percent of patients who died on ventilators before the pandemic, according to previous studies.
The survival percentage isn't much different than before COVID-19.
A ventilator is intended to keep the patient alive until their body can fight off whatever is compromising their lung function. If the patient cannot do so, death is inevitable.
At the point someone is put on a ventilator, they are already dying. If your oxygen saturation drops below 80%, damage to your brain and major organs begins. At that point, a ventilator is the last chance you have. Without it, your chance of death is 100%.
Ideally, the patient can be treated with 100% oxygen (at atmospheric pressure) first, or even a CPAP (which only partially assists with breathing). But, if the patient's oxygen saturation continues to decline, there aren't any other alternatives.
Full disclosure: I'm not a physician, nor do I play one on TV (or TD.win).
But, I lost a family member to pneumonia, and a ventilator was a last resort to give her a chance to fight off the infection. Unfortunately, it didn't work.
Nail on the head. Ya people still die on it but it would be higher without it. Alot of people die when helicopters auto rotate down but like vents, it is oftentimes a last resort move
The patients were being treated as though they had pneumonia type infection, even though the lung scans were atypical of pneumonia. What is is actually happening is that the disease causes blood coagulation, which in the lungs shows up as the "ground glass opacity". Think of thousands of tiny clots in the lungs preventing the flow of freshly oxygenated blood to the rest of the body.
Doesn't much matter how much O2 is pumped into the lungs if the blood can't pick it up and move it to where it needs to go.
I've seen some stories that anti-coagulants were effective in treating patients in this state.
Its sad, because despite the fact that this is new and nothing was ever PROVEN to work, the media call Gov. Party Nipples a hero for screaming about how he needs more ventilators, but demonizes the GEOTUS (and the drug) for saying HCQ seems to show some promise.
I don't know a whole lot about medical field, but my spouse works in an ICU. They are indeed seeing lots of issues with clotting and I believe this is what ends up coding/killing patients. None the less, the standard protocol is still to drug the patients up, intubate/ventilator, and blood thinners (from my understanding). Even with all of that, some patients are still handling it badly and dying. I've even heard that it's heavily affecting the heart in some patients, but that might be due to the clotting? On the flip side, majority of population only sees mild symptoms or no symptoms at all. Does healthcare/science have a grip on this virus and what they're dealing with, or no?
So maybe that's why they were giving me Lovenox while I was in the hospital. They never did explain the rationale behind that, other than "well it's protocol for patients who don't move around a lot", but it makes more sense now.
It prevents clotting. Alot of diseases such as infection and cancer increase clotting, that coupled with laying in bed for days increases the chance of a clot forming and being sent to your lungs. Alot of patients are put on anticoagulants like lovenox to prevent that
Red herring to try to make Trump look bad. Now it's testing which is just as useless. Then it will be contact tracing so the govt can track you like google does. This is the road to tyranny over a fake pandemic driven by garbage models and a hysterical media. Just like Climate Change BS!!!
I think Alex Jones said that China knew before us about ventilators killing people, but they didn't warn anyone. I assume that at least a few elite Democrats knew and let it happen.
I'd guess that Medicare (the taxpayers) pays $13,000 for the initial China Virus diagnosis and an additional $39,000 for withholding hydroxychloroquine long enough that the patient requires ventilation, but I'd like to see that verified.
Ok so my wife is a nurse in PACU (post surgery). She told me that being on a ventilator is by itself very risky. The patients are on anesthesia as most people freak out from being intimated. Ventilated patients require constant monitoring. Their blood levels must constantly be tested so that the ventilator can be adjusted. If patients are not receiving the right amount of oxygen it can cause all kinds of problems leading up to organ failure. She suspects that many of the nurses have too many vented patients to monitor safely. Many of the patients may die due to unintended neglect. Also it’s likely that the hospital labs probably don’t have the capacity to process all the testing required for such patients. Being put on a ventilator could be a very bad situation. Can’t imagine how these nurses feel knowing they can’t provide the care needed and having many patients die.
This! Being on a ventilator is SUPER RISKY. My father was a paralyzed vet on a ventilator. It was permanently and surgically inserted thru the front of his throat. He had to have someone there with him 24 hours a day with a suction machine because you have to suction fluid out every 10 minutes or it can harden and make a blockage. I guarantee these people weren't being suctioned as often as necessary, maybe through no fault of the nurses & resp therapists because they just couldn't keep up.
By the time someone gets to the point where their doctors put them on a ventilator, their lungs are usually beyond fucked. (usually, unless the doctor is incompetent)
The ventilator may save some people, whereas without it they would pretty much have no chance.
This is my cursory understanding from what I've read. The real solution is to not let it go that far, and the drugs like HCQ and other immune-suppressants are usually the ticket. But then there's people with other potentially deadly diseases going on, and suppressing the immune system would open the door for them. In those cases, the doctors can't really do anything. Some people are just bound to die from this shit, or from the shit they had before they got this virus. But they won't be in any numbers we aren't used to from normal flu viruses and other respiratory illnesses, and that's mainly because the immune system freaks out when shit attacks the lungs more often than other illnesses that affect other organs.
I'm telling you - every time I feel like I'm starting to get sick, I use zicam zinc spray. I'd say about 80% of the time, I'm fine the next day. And, No, I don't believe in crystals and my name isn't Karen.
The mistake was treating it as a respiratory affecting virus, when what it's actually doing is killing of the hemoglobin in the blood, so it's mimicking hypoxia
the treatment to that is 100% oxygen, not forcing air into people lungs to the point they explode.
so actually, the non-invasive ventilators Musk got when used with 02 were the right solution.
When you get to the point you need a ventilator, the choice is either die right now or have a chance of survival with a ventilator.
There is some confusion with covid, though, because early on people were suggesting you intubate patients early, before you normally would. The thinking was that people deteriorated rapidly and would die before you had a chance to get them intubated/ventilated. Also that all of the things in between simple oxygen and the ventilator - CPAP, BIPAP, high flow nasal cannula, etc - endangered healthcare workers by exposing them to more virus.
Now we are doing all we can to not intubate these patients. That’s reflected with the high mortality of ventilated patients we are seeing in New York compared to other places (50 vs 88%).
So all the geniuses in this thread who pretend to know more about what to do than the actual doctors caring for these patients should basically stfu.
New York State's death rate from Covid is just about the highest in the world: 1000 people per million population. For context, Texas is 20 people per million population and Sweden (with no lockdown) is at 200 people per million.
How is no one talking about this?
Let me tell you what happens when you are on a ventilator. They give you a drug to put you in a medically-induced coma. They give you another drug to paralyze you. Your kidneys stop working so well, so they put you on dialysis. How is anyone supposed to survive all that with a big pipe down their throat? How is something with a 90% death rate considered a legitimate treatment? I smell a huge rat here somewhere.
They are putting patients “prone” and their oxygen levels get better and they can sometimes avoid the ventilator. Sometimes they are on a less invasive device like a CPAP machine. The patients can prone themselves - basically a nurse knocks on your door and tells you to roll over every couple hours.
They are also putting patients prone who are on the ventilator. It’s a lot more work and takes 6-8 people to do it safely.
Some people are guessing this improves the blood flow to different areas of the lung - basically moving the blood going through the lung to areas that are actually getting air.
The USA had only 200 deaths when Trump tweeted Hydroxychloroquine and Z Pack on March 19. We knew a month ago that ventilators are a death sentence, with almost 80% Death rates. This is not even new news!
Almost 50,000 Americans died and 30 million jobs lost because LIBERALS refused to prescribe a 10 cent medicine as soon as vulnerable patients test positive.
Medicare pays out $39,000 for every China Virus patient put on a ventilator. You can make a lot of boat payments by withholding hydroxychloroquine long enough that your patient needs to be put on a vent.
Well. duh. you sniffed? heres a ventilator. over pressurize it, pop the lungs. oh you died of asphyxiation cus you couldnt exhale enough CO2. too bad. cant prove it.
No they knew they wouldn't work. Those who need ventilators tend to be obese. Obese you have to lay on stomach to ventilate. Which is basically an exercise in futility as the high death rate shows.
What percent of people with seasonal flu that require ventilators die? Need perspective around random numbers. I don't know the answer, I am not trying to "get-ya", just trying to better understand.
I agree with the gist of your post. However, there are some things to consider -
When your standard approach to every fire is to put it out with water, then you are in for a big surprise the first time you have a grease fire.
Doctors panicked, and used what had worked before. Patients were collapsing without any underlying explanation and doctors were throwing everything, including the kitchen sink at the problem.
I'll explain it from a different point of view. Imagine that you noticed the that one of your vehicle's tires was low. You put some air in it. The next day it is low again. You put some air in it and check for a leak, maybe check the valve. The air continues to get low, each day becoming worse. At what point would you think that putting air in the tire was causing the problem?
That's what doctors were facing here. The usual V/Q mismatch (ventilation vs perfusion) rules that they normally used to fix someone's oxygen levels just weren't working. Doctors aren't engineers, and different patients have all sorts of differing reactions to treatments, but many of the basics still apply. When those basics aren't working, it's a completely new game with unknown rules.
The one real potential problem here is that they continued to treat primarily with ventilators for so long, after they weren't seeing some of the patients recover in a few weeks. At that point, they should have been questioning all the methods being used, no matter what the methods were.
I dunno perhaps Doctors are too stuck on convention or perhaps their schooling has failed them to see viable alternatives to pharmaceuticals. We exalt them in society but this only leaves us scrambling when they are wrong or have been politically corrupted. They aren't selfless or any of the higher virtues we extoll, most are in it for the money and apparently a hell of a lot of them will drop their oath to their patients to serve an oath to their license holders or against threats to their pocketbooks.
This is a huge part of the problem. Doctors treat patients in ways that are documented to work, because they can point to the documentation and say "look it isn't malpractice, it's universally accepted standard of care!"
Doctors have to do a lot of stupid shit to make sure their asses are covered in case someone doesn't get the result they were expecting and decides to sue.
Guess who teaches the doctors what techniques to use? Who influences doctors treatments?
This is why I make my own artisan, small batch, copper still organic methamphetamine from ephedra plants and mine-fresh lithium to treat my ADHD
Interesting, a craft stimulant!
Between cocaine Mitch, Adderall GEOTUS and me the cactus— we really do have the best stimulants, believe me
HIGH ENERGY
Are you suggesting that the pharmaceutical industry should be or currently is in charge of health education? Because that's kind of right in that they are. And no, they shouldn't be.
Yeah they indirectly control what is taught through lobbying. They need to sell their drugs so they lobby and get the regs changed. New docs get taught new regs and better treatments are thrown to the wayside because their greed.
I'm a surgery resident. I graduated top of my class in a top 20 college at age 21, and I'll finish all my training at age 37. For many years I raked in debt, and when I wasn't taking in debt, then 50-70k a year raising a family of 3 kids.
I keep in touch with my friends from college - if they didn't pursue training then they were making nearly 6 figures when done, and easily climbed to 100k-200k for the 16 years while I trained.
I'll probably make 500k when I'm done. It'll be a nice reward. But I calculated I'll be 51 before I even out with my friends that started working right after college.
If you think doctors go into this profession to make money, we are either incredibly stupid at making money, or we aren't doing this to make money.
You can also see why people like Bernie that say doctors earn too much are infuriating
Edited to also add... Those training years are lost, you work 80+ hours a week, thankfully I have a supportive wife but you don't get them back
Keep at it, brotha, I know how hard it is (not from personal experience, but my brother). I always chuckle when people rag on doctors, and especially when they say they "do it for the money." Like you, my brother took on massive debt, just recently finished his residency and fellowship, has boatloads of school debt to pay off, and doesn't even make all that much yet, and is just about 40. Won't be a long while before he's "in the green," so to speak on his investment. Just the amount of work the poor bastard had to put in, I don't think I saw him sleep for about 15 years, constantly buried in a book, it's just insane. I've so much respect for anyone that can didicate that much time, effort, money, and just general sacrafice, for something just because it's a calling, in a way. For my brother, he just knew it was what he wanted to do, set his sights on it early in high school, and busted his ass to do it, but he sure as shit didn't do it for the money lol (not to say he won't be comfortable in some time, but it's hardly the route anyone would go if money is the only goal)
Literally nobody attacks doctors compensation not even Bernie. Insurance companies are usually the target of progressive attacks. But even in that argument doctors have a huge part through billing.
I can imagine that if you stay on the straight and narrow as a doctor you may not become as rich as possible. But since there's so much opportunity getting that pharma money I'm pretty sure it's skewed the ethics for your entire profession from top down.
Where are the voices of health professionals speaking counter to propaganda against treatments like hydroxychloroquine, ignoring studies that directly counter claims the misleadia makes or speaking out for the patients who are waiting for cancer or surgeries they need but can't because the hospital cancelled electives? I feel there should be an ethical requirement that you temper down inflammatory disinformation and try to be less alarmist for everybodies sake, something in your bed side manners etiquette. I see the articles here and while that's helpful our cause really needs your accredited voices speaking directly against politicized organizations giving this distorted health advice. Write a letter to your newspaper and speak out against politicized health and science policy. I dunno something more than following orders, please do the right things here.
Doctors are not that smart. I've gone to school with many of them and have had enough contact with doctors to know this. They stop learning as soon as they're out of school it seems. Most of them I think, do not have the ability to assimilate newer medical information on their own.
The problem with this profession is you are trained to memorize information rather than logical thinking.
Eh... plenty of pulmonologists definitely noticed the odd aspects of the patient presentation that varied from traditional ARDS. Your everyday critical care doc might not notice though
They noticed it but do not have the ability to do anything with that information. That is what we are seeing.
People used to argue with me when I claimed that the only continuing education doctors get is from pharma reps on golf junkets. Now they finish my thought when I bring it up.
It really opens your eyes when you need a doctor for something and they don't have any answers.
Logical thinking doesnt work that well with the human body - we aren't as smart as God our creator - I can think of many examples when logic failed us. we need to do research and study our outcomes
The logic part is for problem solving. That is how they found that Hydroxycholoroquine helps. Problem is DEM/SM is fighting tooth and nail to keep solutions away from this problem. The lack of logic on the part of health care providers make a lot of them follow in the footsteps of DEM/SM. The good thing is there are some that have critical thinking skills, and would actually look at and comprehend the data provided instead of dismissing everything as anecdotal evidence. What is a case study.
If you can't see that pharma has taken over the healthcare industry with dangerous consequences to humanity as a whole then you've just not been looking or you're shilling for financial interest. There a reason the worlds richest man left his money maker computer software operation to suddenly turn to marketing and manufacturing vaccines. Individuals deserve to have access to whatever healthcare they need but HEALTHCARE POLICY AND EDUCATION should not be wholly funded by Merck, DuPont, Pfizer and their like and their medical authority absolutely should be questioned.
Also the use of hydroxychloroquine is obviously being pushed back by the medical industry, would you compare it to healing crystals? Because that's what the generalized healthcare industry would seem to be saying. Why are you here in this forum again?
I'm with you. How anyone can have any respect for the western medical system after this is beyond me.
Let me introduce you to this wonderful thing called "homeopathy", my friend!!!
Unfortunately, no they don’t.
Countless plants mimic the effects of certain pharmaceuticals with one tenth the side effects and they are overlooked because they don’t make money.
I have been reading that 90-95% on ventilators die anyway for at least a month now. And reading from doctors saying that the ventilators make it WORSE. They actually stress your lungs more when they are already sore/hurting.
I don't think every doctor goes around trying to kill people but goddamn has this ever exposed how useless our medical systems generally are...
Yes they needed oxygen, not ventilators
"...And reading from doctors saying that the ventilators make it WORSE. They actually stress your lungs more when they are already sore/hurting"
You realize that the point of ventilators is to deliver oxygen right? Rona causes ARDS which essentially fills the tiny sacks in your lungs with junk and decreases the surface area to absorb oxygen. Not all to much to do for that
Your lack of understanding masquerading as condescension is staggering.
The point of ventilators is to deliver a pressurized gas. In most cases that gas is actually just room air because your alveoli are fine, they're just obstructed, as you say. They can be modified to deliver pressurized oxygen instead of just room air. This is important because:
Yes.
No. That is only one of many possible reasons for ARDS. In the case of corona, that does not happen. Corona causes ARDS through low oxygenation due to hemoglobin destruction. Your lungs don't have gunk in them. It's your blood that doesn't have what it needs to carry oxygen. So pressurized ventilators pushing room air didn't help at all.
On top of that, hemoglobin breakdown leads to free iron in your blood, which damages the alveoli that are already delicate as hell. When they are damaged, a pressurized ventilator can cause them to rupture, which is why ventilators are actually doing more harm than good and you have such high death rates with ventilated patients. The ventilators are making the problem worse.
However, low pressure ventilators that are modified to push oxygen at low pressure rather than room air at high pressure work very well, especially combined with blood transfusions.
Or you could just use anti-malarial medication early coughhydroxychloroquinecough and prevent the hemoglobin breakdown in the first place.
AFAIK there isn't any clinical evidence for this and the paper that made this claim was based on protein simulation and modeling techniques. This was not based on clinical evidence:
(Emphasis mine.)
The other side of the coin is what damages the alveoli is that SARS-CoV-2 attacks the type II pneumocytes then inflammatory cytokines precipitate fluid entering the lung tissue.
This guy gets it
Old news. The virus has a completely different effect on the lungs than the classic pneumonia.
At first, the lungs are +- alright if somewhat damaged by Covid, but people are still hypoxic. The latest news from post-mortems in Germany and Switzerland is that the micro-circulation is all fucked in the alveoles, meaning that the oxygen is getting into the lungs, but isn't getting into the blood and you need to improve that instead of pumping in air that can't go into the blood anyway.
Russia is testing breathing really hot helium to try and unfuck the circulation. Others are trying NO gas. Other still are trying hyperbaric chambers.
We don't know if it works yet, but we do know that the ventilators don't really work in this first stage of the disease when your lung tissue isn't too far gone yet but the blood oxygen level is already really low.
Ventilators totally work for hypoxia. Why would you want iron ?
Fyi, This is grossly oversimplifying things. Ventilators absolutely work to treat hypoxia, which is why they were picked in the first place. There are many causes of hypoxia though, and traditional ARDS strategy was the wrong choice for this disease process that still isn't fully understood. There are characteristic lab abnormalities that happen and major concerns of DIC. Some initially claimed it was a hemoglobin binding issue, but that fails to explain low PaO2/FiO2 ratios - since PaO2 is the dissolved O2 in plasma and doesn't involve hemoglobin as a factor. There is clearly a perfusion related V/Q abnormality
Hypoxemia and hypoxia are not the same, but one is usually the cause of the other. Ventilators treat hypoxia by resolving hypoxemia. I didnt disregard what you said.
You might have missed it but there are a bunch of posts on here with information from some of the few doctors that are actually smart.
The muscles that control breathing work fine, they do not need the ventilator for that purpose. Yet doctors are setting them at a pressure to breathe for them, thus crushing aveoli. Damaged lungs folks.
The virus decouples heme group from hemoglobin, so now your blood has less ability to transport oxygen. You have to wait for new hemoglobin to be created now. (It takes cancer patients a couple weeks to recover levels after a treatment) The decoupling of heme causes another problem since free roaming metals poisons organs.
Hydroxychloroquine/zinc will stop the virus from replicating, giving your immune system time to fight off the virus before it sends the patient into organ failure.
IT IS A CRIME WHAT DEM/SM IS DOING TO DISCREDIT THIS DRUG. We are losing more lives than necessary because of this political bullshit.
Outside of surgery techniques, medical science is barely above the Middle Ages as far as knowledge of biophysics and pharmaceuticals.
Medical science still relies on “Double blind trials” which is another way of saying “We have no clue how this shit really works.”
Imagine living in a skyscraper or flying on an airplane designed with “Double blind trials.”
I saw a physician interviewed on OAN last night, who was saying there's a big problem with blood clotting in COVID-19 patients, and that this wasn't recognized at first. Sometimes it's causing strokes -- in a few cases that was the first thing that sent a patient to a hospital -- but also causing clotting elsewhere (I would assume including lungs, but I didn't catch the whole segment). A couple of days ago, I read about an actor who had a leg amputated due to a clot which developed while he was hospitalized for coronavirus.
Clots are common in hospital stays, many patients who are admitted are put on blood thinners for that reason
Yes, and all physicians know that. This is something different. In addition to seeing unusual clotting in already hospitalized patients, they're seeing it in young healthy people upon admission, including a couple of cases where a stroke was what prompted them to be taken to a hospital, and they had not yet had any other symtpoms of COVID-19.
They were throwing every thing (except HydroxyChloroquine cuz TDS) and the kitchen sink at the problem....
Just a little insertion there pede!!
Some were and are quietly using it. One doctor I know said at the very beginning "That shit works, and I'm using it for my patients. If they want to fire me, then go ahead, I don't care."
You have to read the rest of the sentence:
The survival percentage isn't much different than before COVID-19.
A ventilator is intended to keep the patient alive until their body can fight off whatever is compromising their lung function. If the patient cannot do so, death is inevitable.
At the point someone is put on a ventilator, they are already dying. If your oxygen saturation drops below 80%, damage to your brain and major organs begins. At that point, a ventilator is the last chance you have. Without it, your chance of death is 100%.
Ideally, the patient can be treated with 100% oxygen (at atmospheric pressure) first, or even a CPAP (which only partially assists with breathing). But, if the patient's oxygen saturation continues to decline, there aren't any other alternatives.
This makes a lot of sense. Thank you!
Full disclosure: I'm not a physician, nor do I play one on TV (or TD.win).
But, I lost a family member to pneumonia, and a ventilator was a last resort to give her a chance to fight off the infection. Unfortunately, it didn't work.
Thanks, I appreciate that.
I expect my stalker to chime in soon and claim I made it up.
Nail on the head. Ya people still die on it but it would be higher without it. Alot of people die when helicopters auto rotate down but like vents, it is oftentimes a last resort move
Before COVID-19 was declared as a pandemic. I've put hundreds of people on a vent and can count on my hands how many have died
The patients were being treated as though they had pneumonia type infection, even though the lung scans were atypical of pneumonia. What is is actually happening is that the disease causes blood coagulation, which in the lungs shows up as the "ground glass opacity". Think of thousands of tiny clots in the lungs preventing the flow of freshly oxygenated blood to the rest of the body. Doesn't much matter how much O2 is pumped into the lungs if the blood can't pick it up and move it to where it needs to go.
I think his comment was referring the pulmonary alveoli, where gas exchange occurs between the air and blood:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulmonary_alveolus
But, I don't think it's accurate to call it "coagulation":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-glass_opacity
I've seen some stories that anti-coagulants were effective in treating patients in this state.
Its sad, because despite the fact that this is new and nothing was ever PROVEN to work, the media call Gov. Party Nipples a hero for screaming about how he needs more ventilators, but demonizes the GEOTUS (and the drug) for saying HCQ seems to show some promise.
Coagulation, hunh?
Someone with more medical knowledge than I have should compare this thing to the pneumonic plague.
There was a plague outbreak in China in November.
Could the coronavirus be a type of pneumonic plague?
President Trump did call it a plague.
Plague is bacterial, though, not viral.
The plague is actually endemic to the US too. It is actually much more treatable because we can give antibiotics
I don't know a whole lot about medical field, but my spouse works in an ICU. They are indeed seeing lots of issues with clotting and I believe this is what ends up coding/killing patients. None the less, the standard protocol is still to drug the patients up, intubate/ventilator, and blood thinners (from my understanding). Even with all of that, some patients are still handling it badly and dying. I've even heard that it's heavily affecting the heart in some patients, but that might be due to the clotting? On the flip side, majority of population only sees mild symptoms or no symptoms at all. Does healthcare/science have a grip on this virus and what they're dealing with, or no?
So maybe that's why they were giving me Lovenox while I was in the hospital. They never did explain the rationale behind that, other than "well it's protocol for patients who don't move around a lot", but it makes more sense now.
It prevents clotting. Alot of diseases such as infection and cancer increase clotting, that coupled with laying in bed for days increases the chance of a clot forming and being sent to your lungs. Alot of patients are put on anticoagulants like lovenox to prevent that
Gotta say, though, it stung at the injection site for days. Small price to pay I guess.
Red herring to try to make Trump look bad. Now it's testing which is just as useless. Then it will be contact tracing so the govt can track you like google does. This is the road to tyranny over a fake pandemic driven by garbage models and a hysterical media. Just like Climate Change BS!!!
And now fake news is claiming hcq is creating more deaths...
I think Alex Jones said that China knew before us about ventilators killing people, but they didn't warn anyone. I assume that at least a few elite Democrats knew and let it happen.
This to the max.
Sounds like NY is raking in that corona-cash. 30k a pop amirite?
$39,000, plus $13,000 for being a Chinavirus patient in the first place
I hope more info about these payments comes out.
I'd guess that Medicare (the taxpayers) pays $13,000 for the initial China Virus diagnosis and an additional $39,000 for withholding hydroxychloroquine long enough that the patient requires ventilation, but I'd like to see that verified.
Do you realize that the government would also pay for these patients if they were hospitalized with a different diagnosis, too?
It’s not like Medicare only pays for covid.
Hospitals would be making more money doing surgeries.
Ok so my wife is a nurse in PACU (post surgery). She told me that being on a ventilator is by itself very risky. The patients are on anesthesia as most people freak out from being intimated. Ventilated patients require constant monitoring. Their blood levels must constantly be tested so that the ventilator can be adjusted. If patients are not receiving the right amount of oxygen it can cause all kinds of problems leading up to organ failure. She suspects that many of the nurses have too many vented patients to monitor safely. Many of the patients may die due to unintended neglect. Also it’s likely that the hospital labs probably don’t have the capacity to process all the testing required for such patients. Being put on a ventilator could be a very bad situation. Can’t imagine how these nurses feel knowing they can’t provide the care needed and having many patients die.
This! Being on a ventilator is SUPER RISKY. My father was a paralyzed vet on a ventilator. It was permanently and surgically inserted thru the front of his throat. He had to have someone there with him 24 hours a day with a suction machine because you have to suction fluid out every 10 minutes or it can harden and make a blockage. I guarantee these people weren't being suctioned as often as necessary, maybe through no fault of the nurses & resp therapists because they just couldn't keep up.
I don't think most got tracheotomies.
Gotta free them up for more vent patients. That $39,000 isn't going to collect itself.
Couple things to consider:
By the time someone gets to the point where their doctors put them on a ventilator, their lungs are usually beyond fucked. (usually, unless the doctor is incompetent)
The ventilator may save some people, whereas without it they would pretty much have no chance.
This is my cursory understanding from what I've read. The real solution is to not let it go that far, and the drugs like HCQ and other immune-suppressants are usually the ticket. But then there's people with other potentially deadly diseases going on, and suppressing the immune system would open the door for them. In those cases, the doctors can't really do anything. Some people are just bound to die from this shit, or from the shit they had before they got this virus. But they won't be in any numbers we aren't used to from normal flu viruses and other respiratory illnesses, and that's mainly because the immune system freaks out when shit attacks the lungs more often than other illnesses that affect other organs.
I have read that the forced air damages already sore lungs. I've read that from other doctors who have been saying that for weeks now.
This is a known risk of ventilators. That's why a ventilator is a last resort.
COVID-19 didn't change that.
That's the basic gist of it. The gamble is that it will help the patient slightly more than it hurts them, whereas without it they would just die.
Intubation itself further damages the lungs.
There's a 3D printed mod for a snorkeling mask that eliminates the need for intubation. We don't hear about that anymore though.
CPAPs use a mask that seals around the face. But, it can be difficult for a user to find one that works for them.
https://everydaykiss.com/italian-guy-designed-a-3d-printed-valve-to-turn-the-mask-into-a-ventilator-mask-and-its-free/
Oh, that's cool! I misunderstood you -- thought you meant it created a mask, not modifying an existing mask.
I've seen those full face masks at beaches. But, I'm an old-school snorkeler, with mask and snorkel, and I would hate using one.
Doctors have been saying for a while it is the ventilators that are destroying the patients' lungs. Not the virus.
While they shit on the trump pill.
They have to. Zinc ionophores may be effective against multiple dsRNA viruses. We're talking billions in lost profits.
I'm telling you - every time I feel like I'm starting to get sick, I use zicam zinc spray. I'd say about 80% of the time, I'm fine the next day. And, No, I don't believe in crystals and my name isn't Karen.
The mistake was treating it as a respiratory affecting virus, when what it's actually doing is killing of the hemoglobin in the blood, so it's mimicking hypoxia
the treatment to that is 100% oxygen, not forcing air into people lungs to the point they explode.
so actually, the non-invasive ventilators Musk got when used with 02 were the right solution.
Yes.
When you get to the point you need a ventilator, the choice is either die right now or have a chance of survival with a ventilator.
There is some confusion with covid, though, because early on people were suggesting you intubate patients early, before you normally would. The thinking was that people deteriorated rapidly and would die before you had a chance to get them intubated/ventilated. Also that all of the things in between simple oxygen and the ventilator - CPAP, BIPAP, high flow nasal cannula, etc - endangered healthcare workers by exposing them to more virus.
Now we are doing all we can to not intubate these patients. That’s reflected with the high mortality of ventilated patients we are seeing in New York compared to other places (50 vs 88%).
So all the geniuses in this thread who pretend to know more about what to do than the actual doctors caring for these patients should basically stfu.
Of course, hospitals are being financially incentivized to put people on ventilators https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/medicare-hospitals-covid-patients/
New York State's death rate from Covid is just about the highest in the world: 1000 people per million population. For context, Texas is 20 people per million population and Sweden (with no lockdown) is at 200 people per million.
How is no one talking about this?
Let me tell you what happens when you are on a ventilator. They give you a drug to put you in a medically-induced coma. They give you another drug to paralyze you. Your kidneys stop working so well, so they put you on dialysis. How is anyone supposed to survive all that with a big pipe down their throat? How is something with a 90% death rate considered a legitimate treatment? I smell a huge rat here somewhere.
I read somewhere that lying patients on their stomach works and ventilators don't. How true is this?
Very true.
Does prone positioning improve oxygenation and reduce mortality in patients with acute respiratory distress syndrome?
It is true.
They are putting patients “prone” and their oxygen levels get better and they can sometimes avoid the ventilator. Sometimes they are on a less invasive device like a CPAP machine. The patients can prone themselves - basically a nurse knocks on your door and tells you to roll over every couple hours.
They are also putting patients prone who are on the ventilator. It’s a lot more work and takes 6-8 people to do it safely.
Some people are guessing this improves the blood flow to different areas of the lung - basically moving the blood going through the lung to areas that are actually getting air.
The USA had only 200 deaths when Trump tweeted Hydroxychloroquine and Z Pack on March 19. We knew a month ago that ventilators are a death sentence, with almost 80% Death rates. This is not even new news!
Almost 50,000 Americans died and 30 million jobs lost because LIBERALS refused to prescribe a 10 cent medicine as soon as vulnerable patients test positive.
I read that they are finding out now that ventilators are not good for most people. They put you under to do it. 60% approximately survive it.
Getting Corona in a Democrat run State is hazardous to your life
Sorry, this is stupid
You could give covid patients near death spaghetti and nyt and CNN would claim Italian food associated causes death.
Yep, apparently they fucked up with how they used ventilators
Medicare (the taxpayers) still paid $39,000 for every China Virus patient they put on a ventilator.
Medicare pays out $39,000 for every China Virus patient put on a ventilator. You can make a lot of boat payments by withholding hydroxychloroquine long enough that your patient needs to be put on a vent.
Doctors and hospital administrators like boats.
Well. duh. you sniffed? heres a ventilator. over pressurize it, pop the lungs. oh you died of asphyxiation cus you couldnt exhale enough CO2. too bad. cant prove it.
No they knew they wouldn't work. Those who need ventilators tend to be obese. Obese you have to lay on stomach to ventilate. Which is basically an exercise in futility as the high death rate shows.
What percent of people with seasonal flu that require ventilators die? Need perspective around random numbers. I don't know the answer, I am not trying to "get-ya", just trying to better understand.
The same, basically.
Ventilators are actually very dangerous thing to just stick onto people. It can lead to real damage to the lungs if used wrongly.
The article actually does some science, and explains 80% die on ventilators before the pandemic. So bad but worth some debating.
But only if you actually read the article.
70% of hospitalized patients didn't even have a fever.
WHO LIED, FEVER ISN'T A DOMINANT SYMPTOM
88% of those put on ventilators died
WHO LIED, Treating a blood virus with solutions for Acute Respiratory Syndrom was destroying peoples lungs. Misdiagnosis by WHO
0,01% mortality rate (best guess)
WHO LIED
Not transmissable between humans?
WHO LIED
We need a vaccine?
WHO MUST BE TELLING THE TRUTH, WHY WOULD THEY LIE?
CYHNA and the WHO.
Every country in the world has been following China's lead on this. Apparently, they're a world leader now.
Yeah, I kept seeing a doctor's youtube video pleading with people not to pressurize when using the ventilators.
Should been a variable in a double-blind, placebo controlled study before being thrown at every fucking person who actually just need some O2.
Opp's, sounds like cuomo may end up looking like the governor who cried wolf.