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posted ago by Make_Med_Great_Again ago by Make_Med_Great_Again +1083 / -0

Hello, I am a 3rd year IM resident in the tri-state area (can’t be more specific). I have been on the Trump Train since the first primary debate and following COVID-19 with great concern since early January. Colleagues on a private message board have recently been floating the same therapies Trump mentioned in his recent press briefing. Since that has now turned into a political issue, and they know my political background asked me to comment on the subject here. I will attempt to present a brief relevant context and the actual medical information. I am not a professional writer, so I apologize if parts of this do not come across well. If any of you know an appropriate party you wish to send this information to, please do.

CONTEXT:

With COVID, it was clear from the onset that unless a viable treatment was found for the disease, it was going to be highly problematic. Ultraviolet Blood Irradiation (the application of Ultraviolet Light directly to the blood stream) is actually one of the most promising options to that effect.

Our current approach is lockdowns at all costs and wait for a vaccine. This is a questionable approach for a few reasons.

  1. Lockdowns had a reasonable chance of working, IF, they were implemented before the virus left China to contain it, but this did not happen (notifications of a potential threat were very late…in mid February despite the internet knowing over a month before… and once Trump tried to do a travel ban, most of the establishment further delayed it….we waited until march to suggest wearing masks etc). Once the virus has become endemic in the country, it is highly questionable if the lockdown is justified as the virus can no longer be made extinct and it is very likely more damage will come from shutting the economy down. Additionally, it is very possible that allowing the virus to spread during the summer when people are less susceptible so a natural herd immunity can be obtained rather than waiting for the next flu season for it to hit hard again will save dramatically more lives.

  2. It is unlikely an effective vaccine will be developed in the near future. China has attempted for a decade to make an effective vaccination against SARS with minimal success, as the vaccine was found to increase host susceptibility to a cytokine storm (in other words death) following SARS infection and no solution to this problem was ever discovered. Additionally, COVID has already mutated into numerous different strains, this significantly complicates the possibility of the eventually developed vaccine even being the correct one when it is needed (similar to the issue we run into with influenza vaccines). Optimistic projections for a vaccine are pegged at 18 months. It will be nearly impossible for our society and economy to withstand a shut down for that long, so a different solution is needed.

There are 2 fundamental questions that need to be answered by the medical field to address this calamity. The first is why are certain people so vulnerable to COVID and why does it suddenly appear in large waves in certain areas? This is not typical for a viral disease, and while there are multiple credible hypothesis to explain this phenomena, my profession has made a very small effort to evaluate this question (relative to everything else being done). Answering this question is absolutely crucial for managing our current response. The second of course, is how do you treat the disease.

Historically, Standard Medicine has been mostly unable to treat viral diseases, however a variety of other medical therapies have performed effectively for that purpose but not been adopted within Standard Medicine due to commercial interests. The treatment approaches Trump mentioned fall into that category.

The typical requirement now for a therapy to be adopted is for large peer reviewed studies to be present supporting it, as opposed to doctors independently observing consistent large improvements in difficult to treat illnesses. Typically for these studies to be approved, and for them to be conducted, it takes a lot of money. If the money is not there, everyone in the process slows things down (many academics sense of identity is based off shooting down ideas that go against their viewpoin) and the novel approaches we should be using don’t enter Standard Medical Practice even when really dedicated physicians are behind them. This leads to a systemic bias in medical evidence where many of the available therapies (especially newer ones) are just expensive patentable pharmaceutical treatments with questionable value (as industry research is often biased to support the product), and doctors are trained to be strongly biased against non-pharmaceutical drug approaches to treat illness. Historically, there are many examples of incredible medical therapies being shut out of the American Market place because there wasn’t a big fish behind them (although to be fair, many alternative therapies are also garbage), and this is a big part of why health care is so expensive.

My early hope was that everyone would recognize just how bad COVID could be and realize that they needed to come together to solve the problem rather than putting their own self interests first. Sadly this has not happened, and a very partisan approach to the disease has emerged. Most of the left does not want a cure to emerge for the disease, and they want to keep the country under lockdown until at least November to destroy the economy and Trump’s re-election. Each time a cure is proposed, it is aggressively shut down by a highly politicized half of the country and medical community (somewhat related, in the last few years big tech and big pharma have allied together with the left and most pro pharma initiatives tend to be spearheaded by democrats now). Using Hydroxychloroquine as an example, everyone who has had large scale success with it (over a 98% cure rate for patients), has reported that it has to be given with Zinc, and it is unlikely to work if given late in the disease process. Yet over and over, I see bad studies (which would normally never be considered by medical authorities for discussion due to methodological flaws) which violate these 2 requirements fail and be held as proof we should not listen to the Orange man give us medical advice. In my own experience, unless a Physician is a Republican (which should have NO bearing on your ability to practice medicine), they will not consider the possible methodological flaws in the hydroxychloroquine studies, and that is really sad (which as you might guess are a minority in my Blue city).

Currently, one of the only treatments being seriously looked at for COVID is an expensive experimental antiviral drug named Remdesivir that was developed for Ebola (and has a high side effect profile). While this is not an optimal approach, it is receiving more serious consideration (and significantly less criticism) than hydroxychloroquine (a generic medication) as there is the potential to make a lot of money off the therapy and hence investors are pushing it through being studied.

MEDICAL INFORMATION: (references are at the bottom of this section) There are a variety of therapies that have been demonstrated to have some degree of success in treating viral conditions over the last 100+ years, including in pandemics with high death rates where nothing worked, yet lacking commercial potential were never adopted into Standard Medicine. Similarly, there were various lessons observed, such as the significantly increased death rate from viral conditions following medications to reduce fevers (ie. Aspirin in 1918), that has been repeatedly ignored (despite France going on record saying Ibuprofen increased the death rate and there being many case reports of people with early COVID crashing following Ibuprofen, the medical community and the WHO refuse to stop recommending NSAIDS..which you don’t need to begin with…as no large trials have proven this adverse effect).

There are a group of related therapies (including Ozone, Hydrogen Peroxide, Ultraviolet Light, High Dose Vitamin C…all which were developed in the USA about 100 years ago) that create similar effects in the body, as Ozone in the blood creates hydrogen peroxide, Ultraviolet light applied to blood creates Ozone, and IV Vitamin C creates hydrogen peroxide (oral cannot reach high enough levels to do this). All of them share characteristics including an ability to rapidly neutralize easily oxidizeable viruses (COVID is in this category), improve immune system elimination of pathogens, stop severe autoimmune responses (such as cytokine storms), and rapidly restore your ability to oxygenate the body, which are essentially exactly what you need to rapidly treat COVID. As these therapies showed a high degree of effectiveness in the past viral disease, it was naturally suspected they would also be effective for COVID. Outside of hospitals, many physicians on private message boards (and occasionally publicly) reported of each of these therapies being utilized and being highly effective at treating COVID that was on it’s way to a hospitalization. Typically any severe one at the about to be hospitalized stage (including something as simple as nebulizing dilute hydrogen peroxide), plus avoidance of fever medications, oral vitamin D and oral Vitamin C seemed to do the job. For more complex conditions, it is generally found a combination of these (Ie. Ultraviolet Blood irradiation with Ozone mixed in followed by Vitamin C) produces the best results. Some work has also been done in hospitals which suggests a very effective COVID cure exists. I’ll try to break down the evidence for each of these. It should be noted each of these has a very high safety profile with adverse effects almost unheard of (whereas with medications like Remdesivir they have been frequent enough to stop trials on the therapy).

*Ozone has been used for many similar viral conditions, most recently Ebola. One of the oldest organizations promoting Ozone therapy is based in Italy and named SIOOT. Due to their connection with the hospital system, they were able to trial Ozone for critically ill COVID patients. 2 small studies were performed showing a consistent dramatic improvement in patients expected to have a poor prognosis (to my knowledge there is nothing besides possibly hydroxychloroquine so far that has shown a comparable effect to what they observed), along side another hospital in italy which reported similar results. Another Italian hospital outside their group reported similar results. There have also been reports of similar results observed in China (only 1 is presently available to verify), and a clinic in Ibiza Spain has also found the same effect (rapid normalization of vital signs, treatment of cytokine storm, complete recovery and discharge instead of death on a ventilator). One large study has been initiated in Italy and others are in the process of being applied for. Ozone has also been touted as one of the best ways to decontaminate COVID areas as it rapidly destroys the virus, diffuses throughout a room without the need for labor and quickly decays after being produced. Many of the confusions around Ozone relate to the fact it irritates lung tissue (especially if produced without medical oxygen as other toxic compounds are then formed), so when used medically, it is directly applied to the bloodstream, most commonly by removing blood, injecting ozone gas into the blood, and then returning blood to circulation (which is what all the studies so far has done), although other approaches also exist.

*IV Vitamin C does not directly relate to anything Trump discussed, however, I am briefly mentioning it here as it has shown promise and IV Vitamin C is the most familiar to the medical field (in the last few years, some more “alternative” hospitals have started using it for sepsis since there is some evidence suggesting it helps there). Early studies in China found it to be fairly effective for improving the course of the disease, leading to studies of it being launched in China, Canada and Italy. One hospital system in NY is now using it for COVID.

*Ultraviolet Blood Irradiation (various means of getting UV light in the blood): This therapy has the most evidence supporting it. It was developed in America about 100 years ago, widely used in the hospital system, and then displaced by antibiotic therapy. At this point, it is most utilized in Russia (requiring you to be able to search the Russian internet) but also employed in my outpatient alternative medicinal centers with a high degree of success and neglibile adverse effects.. It has been used in the past for viral pneumonias with high success (whereas conventional treatments have difficulty treating this ailment). There are

*Hydrogen Peroxide is commonly thought of as a disinfectant. There is in reality a long history of it being used intravenously since the early 1900s (including to treat viral pneumonias on the verge of death in the 1918 pandemic), or taken orally or nebulized. Most doctors came to the conclusion Ozone was superior to hydrogen peroxide, so intravenous applications are rarer now. Also, hydrogen peroxide is naturally produced within the body. On a less complex basis, it is often used as a gargle to clean the throat (which is where COVID initially replicates), sometimes taken orally and sometimes nebulized. Much of the confusion with utilizing hydrogen peroxide relates to the appropriate concentrations. The stuff you buy over the counter (3.5%) for instance, is effective as a gargle or surface cleaner, but much too strong to put into the body where it requires significant dilution.

In short, there is actually a very good case for “applying disinfectants and UV light to the blood” even though these are considered to be absurd on the surface. As far as I know, they represent the most effective way to treat the virus. However, since a lot of people are invested in no cure being found and our economy being destroyed, like many other things over the last 4 years you can expect to hear the opposite from any “expert” asked. I wish more people knew about these approaches, as it could have prevented a lot of the grief we have dealt with so far.

References are in the first comment.

Comments (106)
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deleted 57 points ago +58 / -1
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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 26 points ago +26 / -0

Yeah..sadly as a resident my hands are kind of tied here so I've had no luck on that and all the attendings here despise Trump so my case for Ultraviolet Blood Irradiation just got a lot weaker.

One of the things that really baffled me was how it took 2 months for the health authorities to realize nursing homes were at really high risk.

I'm pretty sure the severity varies depending on region (since in some you have young people who in 6 hours go from normal to needing ICU care with their tubes filling with hemoptysis), whereas in others people are more like typical influenza. Without too much identification, where are you?

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deleted 19 points ago +20 / -1
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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 13 points ago +13 / -0

Too many mandatory medicare for all lectures? :p I've kinda had to just stay silent on that one :'(

Most of the things I've hypothesized exacerbated COVID aren't in NC, so that might be causing you to see less severe cases than NYC (where in some places it has been really bad and scary for providers to work with).

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deleted 10 points ago +10 / -0
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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 8 points ago +9 / -1

Yeah, a few of my friends from med school are in Brooklyn and are somewhat traumatized. As far as factors go, I need to emphasize, these are all possible theories. I am not confident in any of them, so I do not want them to be associated with my credibility for assessing the crux of this post.

*Different viral strains that standard tests cannot distinguish between, one is fatal, one is minor. *Like Dengue, severe disease occurs in second infection not first. *A significant portion of this iatrogenic from NSAIDS or less likely ACEs/ARBs. *It's a hepatitis B/D situation, where you have to get a harmless virus first in order for the main virus to really mess you up. *5g either increases susceptability to the virus, or symptoms of 5g exposure are being misattributed to COVID. *COVID thrives in cold damp environments. This was the Chinese Medicine assessment, and to some extent it has been proven from analyzing the Chinese data and looking at the places with the most severe impacts (NC is much warmer). The cold part is definitely true, the damp one is harder to say (evidence exists to support both interpretations).
*It may largely be a sun thing. It was actually proven the 1918 Influenzas severity correlated to geographical and seasonal UV light levels.

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deleted 6 points ago +7 / -1
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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 11 points ago +11 / -0

It's a hypothesis that has been floated. It fits the criteria needed for a 3rd variable that is causing the strange distribution of this disease. The problem is that there has been no safety testing to effectively establish the precise biological effects so it's largely unknowable. For a bit more context, there was a lot of concern 5G would cause significant health effects before it was launched (I thought the concerns were merited) and friends sent me numerous videos of people predicting once 5G got launched in NY a lot of people would get very sick. A fairly large contingent of scientists called for safety testing of the system before it's rollout (which never happened). Based on extrapolations from existing known side effects of similar but lower intensity microwave radiation it was hypothesized that 5G would cause coagulation issues, disruption of porphyrins, and severe influenza likeillnesses. This is somewhat similar to the COVID picture. Additionally, many of the areas worst hit were also 5G rollout areas (ie. Wuhan was basically the first). At the same time though, say north korea was hit by this (enough that they let doctors without borders in) and I am doubtful NK could do a 5g rollout. I'm hence open to this theory, but can't commit to it because it's largely based on conjecture and correlation, not any solid evidence.

The bigger issue basically is that no one is really looking at why some areas get COVID really badly but others don't, so a variety of conjectures end up being the best you have to go off, which is a place I hate to be making assessments from.

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Kolob 1 point ago +1 / -0

This does not explain Guayquil Ecuador. We know lots of virus is shed in our stools. I am wondering how much poor sanitation increases viral load and illness severity. Obviously this will be multi factorial, but what do you think?

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 2 points ago +2 / -0

None of the existing hypothesis line up 100% which is what makes it tricky to make a statement on any specific thing. Currently, the most evidence accumulated so far is for the climate link. Poor sanitation is a possible link too (there were early speculations linking it to the chinese using squatting toilets) but I felt that one was less likely so I did not include it in the list. The bigger issue just is that no one is doing in depth study to deduce what is exacerbating the illness.

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deleted 6 points ago +6 / -0
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krzyzowiec 5 points ago +5 / -0

It’s not different from the medical field in that way. I’m sure you could rattle off a number of ailments, medications, or even body parts that would baffle normal people.

99% of those terms you hear in coding are like new drugs, just new names and tweaks to existing tech that makes it somewhat better than what came before.

The concepts, architectures, and languages can be relatively difficult at times, but you start recognizing patterns and it becomes much simpler to evaluate things eventually.

It’s quite a pain to learn (and the learning never ends), but there is nothing as fun for me as seeing my creation come to life and WORK! I’m actually writing a cross-platform app for td.win right now. Should be useful even when the official app comes out because that one is android-only afaik.

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Littleirishmaid 3 points ago +3 / -0

Please don’t, we need people like you. But, I’d understand if you did.

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deleted 2 points ago +3 / -1
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Littleirishmaid 2 points ago +2 / -0

A new hobby to become a new vocation when you retire.

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sixfingerdildo 1 point ago +1 / -0

App just means program. ios Dev just means fetish.

What is the idea? That's the important part. Platform, language, Dev tools are incidentals.

Edit: get your feet wet with html5 and browser based Dev. The skills are transferable. The end product is viable.

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Kolob 1 point ago +1 / -0

My husband is a degreed coder from the golden age and we have done at least as well as most doctors. but the problem is that those who just want more money don't have the fire in the belly and I saw so many fail.

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VoltronGreen1981 2 points ago +2 / -0

Orthodox medical dogma needs to be seriously challenged so that it can move forward to the present and not be something the old guard gatekeepers insist is the law.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 2 points ago +2 / -0

Pretty much, but historically that is rare.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 34 points ago +34 / -0

REFERENCES:

Ozone: Much of the information relating to Ozone can be found on SIOOT’s website. Additionally this group: https://www.texasrighttoknow.com/ has compiled most of the existing reports of Ozone being used so far. There are a few different groups that have compiled Ozone research so far, with the most thorough being at DrsOzone.com and another detailed one at https://ozonewithoutborders.ngo/ (unfortunately it is behind a paywall). If you are short on time, this paper is a succinct summary (which focuses on direct IV ozone rather than the typical infusion in extracorporeal blood): https://clinmedjournals.org/articles/jide/journal-of-infectious-diseases-and-epidemiology-jide-6-113.php?jid=jideRobert

Vitamin C: Youtube/Google has unfortunately been aggressively censoring information on non-pharmaceutical therapies for COVID, which led to many of the videos being pulled. This is an archive someone put together on IV-C which included the videos deleted by youtube: https://www.reddit.com/r/Wuhan_Flu/comments/g1yqtu/resource_vitamin_c_research_ive_collected_in_the/

Ultraviolet Blood Irradiation: This is one of the best review papers written on Ultraviolet Blood Irradiation: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29124710 There is a website that has compiled much of the existing research on Ultraviolet Blood Irradiation: DrsUBI.com Various books have been written on ultraviolet irradiation. One with detailed summaries of the therapy is called Into the Light: Tomorrow’s Medicine Today. Scans of the relevant parts can be found online. If you want to go deep on this, as noted above you can also search the Russian internet.

There is a lot of information contained within each of these references, and I believe it is better to discover things yourself rather than taking someone’s else’s word for it, so I view it as my job only to point the way to you.

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z89101 18 points ago +18 / -0

Thank you for this excellent submission.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 15 points ago +15 / -0

Thanks! I wish I had more time to do things like this

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 17 points ago +17 / -0

Forgot to put this in. There is also a case to be made for a similar oxidizing therapy called MMS (which numerous patients and physicians I have spoken to have reported a high degree of safety and efficacy for when taken in small doses orally), however this one is much more controversial as it is normally considered to be toxic bleach or a disinfectant with no medical value.

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SirPokeSmottington 4 points ago +4 / -0

There is also a case to be made for a similar oxidizing therapy called MMS

HOW DARE YOU suggest people drink industrial bleach! — Leftists and MSM everywhere.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 5 points ago +5 / -0

Yeah. That's why I feel it needs to be mentioned but I don't really want to mention it, but I feel it should be here for completion. A few other resident doctors I know used it for a condition they suspected was going to become COVID but they weren't actually sure since they didn't have the lack of smell or any severe symptoms before it went away. Otherwise I have not seen anything confirming it being used for COVID, although no one I knew ever had time to dig through all the MMS forums for this piece of information.

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fallhollow 17 points ago +17 / -0

Thank you for sharing this. I had no idea that ultraviolet blood irradiation had been around that long. We need more doctors like you in this country, so thank you for what you do.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 13 points ago +13 / -0

What's sad is that there were a lot of groundbreaking medical inventions in the United States that all basically got forgotten and are now mostly just used in Communist/former communist countries because they need something that works but they can't afford expensive modern medicines.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 9 points ago +9 / -0

One of the reasons I went into medicine was so I could use it on people after it helped me fix a fairly difficult issue. It's incredibly how well it works and how generally safe it is.

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deleted 4 points ago +4 / -0
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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 2 points ago +2 / -0

Would rather not say; too identifying

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DisgustedByMisleadia 6 points ago +7 / -1

Someone else posted the NIH article earlier today. I had never even heard of it before then.

Sometimes, what was once old is new again.

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DisgustedByMisleadia 15 points ago +16 / -1

Thanks for taking the time to write this. I'm bookmarking it.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 6 points ago +6 / -0

Thank you.

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Topdog 10 points ago +10 / -0

From a legal standpoint, is there anything you could do to demand some of these treatments?

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 10 points ago +10 / -0

In a hospital, you MIGHT be able to convince the staff to provide IV Vitamin C, especially by bringing literature supporting it. Otherwise, 100% no. You might be able to get them to OK you taking your vitamins from home and be able to mix something in there, but anything else is impossible. Has to be done before you go to the hospital. Most of these therapies also are much more effective the earlier you do them, which is when I'd suggest considering it. I have heard reports of the FDA giving injunctions against clininics (or doctors publicly speaking on the merits of) providing IV Vitamin C or Ozone for COVID-19, so most of the places that offer it will just provide it if asked but won't specifically refer to it as a COVID-19 treatment. Also pretty sad when you think about it.

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Aspielogic2 7 points ago +7 / -0

These treatments are common among Naturopaths. You might search for 'bio spa' or 'medical spa'. Some of these treatments (like IV Vit C) will not be listed on a naturopath's website because Medical Boards harass them for offering it. So you may have to call around and ask them directly. I've used both IV Vit C (50,000iu) and ozone therapy for amoebiasis. I completed the two drug therapies and still didn't feel completely 'me', so I added a few other 'alternative' treatments and had some success.

I used to wonder why the Medical Boards would be so petty - I've learned a lot throug this political pandemic. If something works but the Medical establishment can't charge the moon for the treatment - IT CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO EXIST.

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ShitComment 2 points ago +2 / -0

If you haven't looked into what "they" did to Basil Wainwright over ozone therapy, you are missing out on one hell of a ride.

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Aspielogic2 2 points ago +2 / -0

It's the same villagers-with-pitchforks media attack that they are currently using on Hydroxychloroquine. I've had the same reaction from my western doctors when I mention something like neuro-prolo (that was a lifesaver for the outrageous nerve pain when I tore my rotator cuff and biceps tendon).

The criminal part of this by the medical boards and FDA is that high level athletes and the very rich use these therapies regularly (I have a friend who is a sports medicine Doc to upper level teams). Regular people are scoffed at for trying them in desperation when the western medicine Docs are useless.

Ozone, IV Vit C, Meyers cocktail, prolo/neuro prolo are all Pharma-free. They also fix your discomfort enough that you no longer need (or can use much less of) the prescription anti-inflammatories, pain meds, etc. that Pharma, and those invested in Pharma, make everytime someone is sick.

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ShitComment 2 points ago +2 / -0

Yep, you can definitely get the treatments, but there not going to be covered by insurance. Was considering going to get an IV drip this weekend after all of the discussion.

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Shitsbrokeyo 9 points ago +9 / -0

Honestly, I looked for a TLDR at first... But I'm glad I read it. Thanks for the detailed and informative post. I appreciate the time you spent authoring it.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 6 points ago +6 / -0

Thank you. That was a large part of why I cut most of what I could have said here out to keep it from being too long while still somewhat covering a fairly nuanced topic.

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sixfingerdildo 5 points ago +5 / -0

It was an easy read and very interesting. Your composition and narrative skills are really good so in retrospect, your self deprecation on being a bad writer is funny.

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fear_mongrels 6 points ago +6 / -0

It makes sense, physicians learn to present accurately and concisely in residency, they have to present a lot of information to attendings and other docs. Can't waste time or make mistakes or omit things, excellent training to think and write well.

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sixfingerdildo 3 points ago +3 / -0

I just saw funny people with Adam Sandler. The bit where they rag on his Scandinavian doctor was hilarious.

Einstein was technically proficient. But not an easy read.

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AF1101 6 points ago +6 / -0

Thanks for posting this. Very informative.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 2 points ago +2 / -0

Thank you.

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AutumnCrystal7777777 6 points ago +6 / -0

Thanks for taking the time. I scrolled back the three miles to give an extra special upTrump. Revel in it.

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turanian_552 5 points ago +6 / -1

Thank you for this excellent writeup.

Using Hydroxychloroquine as an example, everyone who has had large scale success with it (over a 98% cure rate for patients), has reported that it has to be given with Zinc...

It appears that Hydroxychloroquine acts as an ionophore to pass Zinc ions across the cell membrane where they can kill the virus. I'm wondering if there are other ionophores that might function in a similar manner. There has been published research on Quercetin (a plant flavonoid) and Epigallocatechin-gallate (found in green tea) (*) It would be a worthy research project to compare the ionophore activity of these last two substances to HCQ.

(*) - Zinc ionophore activity of quercetin and epigallocatechin-gallate: from Hepa 1-6 cells to a liposome model - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25050823

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 5 points ago +5 / -0

Quite a few people with some degree of credibility in the natural medicine field have suggested using Quercetin for covid (and I am not opposed to quercetin). My guess is that it helps a bit, but will not be independently sufficient to turn around severe cases. One of the big issues with natural medical approaches is that a lot of them have a small positive impact that is small enough it is hard to quantify without good data. For COVID a lot of people in the natural health field have been jumping on a bandwagon of using a variety of therapies like this for the disease and citing one study showing a small improvement in something related to the disease process. Most likely, all of these will have a small enough impact, it will be hard to prove a significant benefit from any, which in turn will prove the argument "all that stuff is garbage." The people I know have been primarily pushing UVBI or Ozone or Vitamin C (or possibly peroxide) because they are the best candidates to independently demonstrate a clear improvement people can feel confident in.

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sixfingerdildo 4 points ago +4 / -0

Awesome info. Thanks for taking the time.

Props to the website for allowing large text fields

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 1 point ago +1 / -0

Not large enough to fit the references!

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 2 points ago +2 / -0

Thank you.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 6 points ago +6 / -0
  1. Complete agreement. There is so much federal subsidizing of medicine that it makes it sustainable to have a massively overpriced inefficient system. It's very similar to what happened with education due to student loans. Due to my medical speciality, I regularly have pharma reps coming in giving us lunch to sell a new (questionable) medication and I'm always the only one who doesn't eat all of it up...

  2. What's so amazing about this was that I knew this in January so I'm not sure how it took so long to figure out...

  3. There are a lot of signs humans have gotten much sicker over the last 100 years; skyrocketing rates of chronic disease that have not leveled off yet (especially neuro/immune/psychiatric), and many physicians in the last 100 years reported therapies that were previously effective have become much less effective. I've devoted a lot of study as to what is causing this physical degeneration (and I believe part of it is diet and particularly the demineralization of the soil), but at the same time, I think it is a gross oversimplication to label it as a diet issue even though there are millions of people promoting that message.

  4. Main point with Vitamin C is that it is very difficult to get high blood levels of it from eating it. You can potentially pull it off if you dose it hourly (using an ascorbate) and get to the point you are having GI symptoms, or use a lot of liposomal vitamin C (which is mostly sold out). It's only with the high levels from say IV Vit C that you start to get the hydrogen peroxide production. Seperately from that, many people argue that the vitamin C you get from fruit sources is much better physiologically than plain ascorbic acid/some ascrobate as there are additional related compounds you need. In the 1918 influenza, many of the doctors with success in treating the highly fatal condition just put their patients on a liquid diet of warm freshly squeezed Orange/Lemon juice (store bought now would not work) and seemed to all find this critical. As far as money goes, I learned from a young age relentless pursuit of money for sole the purpose of making money does not lead to happiness, yet many people get stuck in this. One on level I see this in medicine, but at the same time, we get trapped by a huge debt (around 350k now with 7% interest), which makes it very challenging to not think about money even if you are well intentioned.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 4 points ago +4 / -0

To an extent I agree with your characterization of the medical educational process, and there are a lot of financial interests that create pressures to make it be that way. The flip side of the coin is that medical education is very difficult, and unless you have highly motivated creative self directed learners, that's often the only way you can teach students to be able to reliably address a fairly complex wide range of medical conditions. I have been on a educational committee and it's much harder to do things well on the other end than it seems from looking in on the outside.

In my own experience dedicated Christians tend to be unusually excellent physicians, but harder to find in coastal cities.

Agree with your list. You might want to look into the iatrogenic, electrical, and metal contribution to this issue along with the effects of disruption to the natural body rhythmns.

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Cinocynic 3 points ago +3 / -0

Of course hes right, but hes right about a lot of things and theyll lie about it anyway.

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SirPokeSmottington 3 points ago +3 / -0

Remdesivir was proven to be ineffective.

https://time.com/5826618/remdesivir-leaked-data-who-website/

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 6 points ago +6 / -0

There were uncomfirmed reports from the very start that it was causing organ damage (which I assumed was due to the viral RNA polymerase affecting our own RNA polymerases). The Remdesvir point was mentioned primarily to highlight an inferior therapy has gotten infinitely more support than hydroxychloroquine due to greed running medicine.

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VoltronGreen1981 3 points ago +3 / -0

The use of the term disinfectant was the only thing I would have changed where his talking points were concerned, since the connotation is something that normies would misinterpret.

That being said, what do they think chemo-therapy is? Or any other treatment where medicine is used to attack viruses and other problems internally?

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 2 points ago +2 / -0

Basically, some disinfectants work by being oxidizing agents. The human body also uses oxidizing agents to conduct normal metabolism, and neutralize things inside it that it wants to get rid of. As a result, low doses of them can often have beneficial responses. I did not go into it here, but one experimental treatment that has also been explored for COVID is inhaling alcohol vapor to the lung, and most hand sanitizers are just alcohol.

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fear_mongrels 3 points ago +3 / -0

Thanks for this excellent and informative write up. There's plenty here to serve as start of further reading and research about these treatments.

To become a billionaire, President Trump needed an edge against other investors and the crowds. He used that edge to create his deals, which when successful created immense wealth. We see a glimpse of that edge when he talks about therapies which aren't well known outside of specialist practice. Although it maybe have been oversimplified, and the press playing stupid to get soundbites against GEOTUS, to me this shows how he is a little bit ahead of everyone else again.

You'd love to be in business with this man.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 1 point ago +1 / -0

Yeah I was kind of jaw dropped he haphazardly opened the door to using this stuff for COVID, which I did not think could be done, but is basically one of the more important treatments for it.

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wethepepe 3 points ago +3 / -0

Hydroxychloroquine as an example, everyone who has had large scale success with it (over a 98% cure rate for patients), has reported that it has to be given with Zinc, and it is unlikely to work if given late in the disease process. Yet over and over, I see bad studies (which would normally never be considered by medical authorities for discussion due to methodological flaws) which violate these 2 requirements fail and be held as proof we should not listen to the Orange man give us medical advice.

This is the most troubling part of this whole thing for me. You have people who are actively trying to prevent people from having access to or even being aware of a potential solution.

They would happily guide you and your family to your doom for what ever reason with zero guilt...

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Red-in-Tooth 2 points ago +2 / -0

Biologist here again, thanks for the overview and the history presented and for making a case as to what the President was talking about in detail. I can usually convince people to listen, because they often seem to believe scientists and doctors know everything, and explain what was meant but not being a medical professional I don't have all these types of answers that I would really like. Thank you for sharing.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 2 points ago +2 / -0

Thank you

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 2 points ago +2 / -0

As best as I can tell, the 3 supplements in that category most likely to derive benefit are Zinc, Vitamin C and Vitamin D, as that effect has been shown for similar illnesses in the past. I'm not actually familiar with any research or case reports specifying which of those is the most important one (besides physicians in the field reporting that they've taken blood tests of COVID and found vitamin C to be low enough to diagnose scurvey and using that to justify the somewhat controversial practice of IV Vitamin C...scurvey is a basically a way more PC indication for Vitamin D than saying it's to cure sepsis etc), so Zinc is in this category where if I had to guess, I would say it's important to take (and I have been doing that), but I have no evidence I can cite as definitive proof of that assertion. There are tons of ideas I run into that seem plausible, but I normally avoid recommending them until I have good evidence because a lot of times something you think ends up not panning out at all in reality and there are so many ideas to share, you need to find a way to narrow down which ones you go public on (I also don't want to be a physician who gives bad advice, so I spend a lot of time to fact check each thing I say before I claim it).

For the broader question, in a lot of fields of medicine there is a very strong prejudice against using basic vitamins, so when people advocate that, especially when working within a hospital system they risk being ostracized. If that Dr. was a medical resident, especially an intern, this is more so the case. Additionally, many places in NYC have a gag order in place for physicians to speak to the media about COVID, so that could be applied here,.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 1 point ago +1 / -0

Sure thing!

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MythArcana 2 points ago +2 / -0

Please send this to Chairman Newsom.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 3 points ago +3 / -0

I don't have any friends who have contacts in the government. If I did I would, and I think many leaders (especially Republican ones, but even Dems) would be willing to look into this because the money they are loosing from the shutdown is a lot more than the money they loose from upsetting the pharma lobby.

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malooch 2 points ago +2 / -0

Dear Dr,

Thank you so much for this. I hope someone from the Whitehouse somehow comes across this as your point of view is so valuable and could save lives. Below are a couple links you may find interesting with Dennis Prager interviewing Dr. Vladimir Zelenko and Dr. Oz interviewing Dr. Didier Raoult about their successes with the HCQ combo.

https://youtu.be/uy1cPT1ztko https://youtu.be/zpl-EOspbbY

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 1 point ago +1 / -0

Yeah that's basically why I wrote this. I'm hoping someone does.

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Littleirishmaid 2 points ago +2 / -0

The nebulizer therapy utilizing hydrogen peroxide is interesting. I have a family member that uses her nebulizer often.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 4 points ago +4 / -0

This is a good video explaining a lot of that. The point I want to emphasize with the nebulizer therapy is that it is important to dilute the peroxide. If you do not, it can burn your lungs. I do not have clinical experience with this therapy, so I do not know the appropriate concentration. Additionally, it is ideal to use food grade H202 as store bought has preservatives you do not want entering your blood stream. This is a very succinct video on a case example of using Nebulized Peroxide for COVID and a few other things discussed in the above post. Friends of friends know this physician and have told me he is honest/doesn't make stuff up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo-xzvxGdhQ

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Littleirishmaid 1 point ago +1 / -0

Thank you!

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LizardPerson 2 points ago +2 / -0

Thank you so much for taking the time to write this

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 2 points ago +2 / -0

Thank you for reading

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BoughtByBloomberg 1 point ago +1 / -0

Seeing a lot of misplaced enthusiasm here so decided I have to chime in here and state that the use of hydrogen peroxide or any other form of bleach agents described here like MMS is one I've seen often touted by people that follow alternative medicine.

Whilst I don't begrudge em the right to decide what to use I always warn them that they are in fact just huffing bleach and nothing more. These chemicals are not approved methods of treatment for any disease and are at best administered outside of medical supervision by either MDs who strongly believe in alternative medicine or alternative healers for a wide variety of ailments that seem to have no connection with one another. From throat tumors to prostate tumors to intestinal parasites to blocked sinuses.

Especially the MMS is very suspicious as I am getting miracle water vibes from that stuff already, there is also no point in using anything stronger than food grade 3% hydrogen peroxide as the only thing you will get from a stronger mix is more risk of damage to your tissue should you decide to disregard my advice to never huff any caustic liquid. Just don't, trust me on this one.

Here is what little I could find of hydrogen peroxide used as an antibacterial IV agent or inhalation treatment.

Link 1: Animal study

Link 2: 1947 summary paper

There are many more hits that link to self published Ozone/Molecular medicine alternative medicine branches. But these articles are often of very poor quality or devolve into holistic appeals rather than presentation of data. I have not been able to track down any claims made into tangible data sets. Only vague claims by Ozone therapists on their websites.

My gut is saying QUACKS.

Once again do not use any form of self medication without consulting a doctor. There is no known health benefit in humans from the use of hydrogen peroxide either IV or as a mist for inhalation. You are at far greater risk of harming yourself than to do any good.

We know that all these methods work as disinfectants of surface areas. Not as medical treatments. The only one out of the bunch being UV radiation having been used with success to treat multiple infectious diseases in the past. With UV-C gaining a resurgence in popularity for surface infections.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 3 points ago +3 / -0

Please see references. There are also more as well not included here. I also repeatedly specified you need a lower not higher concentration of peroxide.

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BoughtByBloomberg 1 point ago +1 / -0

I know which is why I gave you a 50 ppm and still recommended you shouldn't do it. Mostly because there is no evidence that using bleach agents for this is effective nor is the reasoning employed by it's proponents sound. Like I said the majority of their articles are appeals and not studies. They extol the benefit of their method rather than show the effect of their method.

I went through your references and like I said the only currently viable therapie to get behind would be UV radiation as it has seen widespread employment throughout the past decade on hard to treat bacterial infections. Experimental surface tissue infections such as the cornea. There seems to be something there worth looking at.

I can't say the same about inhaling hydrogen peroxide. You're more likely to develop a chronic exposure astma than cure anything using it. My quackery alarm went off when the MMS entered the picture. MIRACLE MINERAL SOLUTION. It's 4% chlorine dioxide bleach. Nothing else. Quackery

Stick with the official medication of HCQ+Azytromycine+Zinc as advised by Dr Raoult. The man has a species of bacteria named after him. I'd put more weight behind that man's advice than I would a 100 papers saying I should totally have a peroxide enema (one of the treatments advised by the Molecular medicine groups).

Like I said it's not all bad UV light has potential.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 2 points ago +2 / -0

My personal hunch is that UV is the best option, but the strongest data for COVID so far has come from Ozone, and if it continues to perform as observed, it immediately ends the whole epidemic. It would also be tremendously easy to make this therapy available in every hospital in a matter of days (whereas that might be more challenging to do for UV).

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BoughtByBloomberg 1 point ago +1 / -0

I wouldn't say strong. They seem to be part of the same Molecular Medicine crowd. Who again seems to do more more advocacy and lacks data.

They are more selling it than proving it in their articles. They also seem to consistently cite the same people with the same weak evidence from the same Ozone institutions and like I said, trying to actually find the studies they claim to have done leads to a dead end on their websites where they simply claim benefits but show no data.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 2 points ago +2 / -0

Also, in saying that, I need to acknowledge that I am personally very biased towards UV in the blood as it has directly helped me with a few significant health issues.

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Joeret 1 point ago +1 / -0

There’s a reason you can’t find Clorox wipes anywhere; they work.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 1 point ago +1 / -0

Just to be super clear, bleach (sodium hypochlorite), the main ingredient in Chlorox Wipes should never go inside the body. The only medical applications I am aware of for Bleach specifically is taking a bath in it if you have certain skin conditions (and a very small amount absorbs into the body) or a dillute solution to purify drinking water. Both of these are at low enough concentrations they are deemed to not be of significant harm. Despite this, there is good evidence to say always filter it out of our drinking water.
There just are also related chemicals that also can be used as disinfecting agents that have internal physiologic benefit at low concentrations.

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PhiPhi 1 point ago +1 / -0

There is one disinfectant you can safely drink, nebulise or take IV which is reduced colloidal silver Ag(NP) not the ionic AG+ so don't bring up the blue man (Argyria), before everybody let's out a groan, yes I do realise it is controversial but it is not crazy.

I did extensive research on colloidal silver focusing on actual clinical studies rather than evangelists where a distinct pattern emerged, first besides impregnated bandages for burn victims, sterilisation of operating theatres for super bugs and water treatment there were very few studies I could find on silver's modern therapeutic applications. There were plenty of studies and reports on how (ionic) silver causes Argyria with no mention of the metallic nano-particle form, how it caused lung fibrosis if mice were nebulised for 6 hours per day for 10 days, all the official sites basically stated that it has not been studied to prove beneficial applications except in industrial and manufacturing use, deodorant, clothing, etc. This left me asking why? Silver has been used medicinally for thousands of years and then just all but disappeared with the introduction of modern pharmaceuticals so being a contrary SOB I decided to manufacturer my own as a hail mary SARS-COV-2 treatment if the worse came to the worst (also as a standby water purification agent). I produce my own Ag(NP) using medical grade distilled water and food grade electrolytes and reducers with .9999 pure silver and controlled voltages/currents which with the help of Ohms law give me an accurate PPM solution.

Initially at the first sign of a dry cough last month and an intense sinus pain I gargled, irrigated my nasal passages with the concoction, my symptoms were gone by the next morning. Emboldened by my success I drunk about 4 ounces of my concoction and within a couple of hours I started to feel quite feverish with a headache and somewhat ill I was regretting my decision however the next day I felt fantastic actually better than before! I believe I experienced a Jarisch–Herxheimer reaction as undiagnosed pathogens were killed off in my gut I don't know but it didn't seem to affect my good gut flora and actually seems to have made me more regular.

I guess it all could be a placebo effect but I'm going to go with an actual effect, what would be nice is to have some proper studies but until then I'll keep on gargling.

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SirPokeSmottington 1 point ago +1 / -0

I saw a suggestion by someone that high-altitude-sickness medicine could be a cure for low O2 COVID symptoms, as it helps the uptake of O2 in the blood.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 3 points ago +3 / -0

Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy has been proposed for COVID (and has had some effects similar to those listed in this post be observed). The big challenge with hyperbaric therapy is that its not implementable on a mass scale (wayyyy less hyperbarics than vents to put in perspective) and incredibly challenging to implement for hospitalized patients. Other medications are being tried and I am hopeful they will work but doubtful. The most likely reason the suspected altitude sickness is happening is from the hemoglobin being directly attacked. There are a lot of reports of the therapies listed here treating conditions where the a pathogen disrupted hemoglobin function, which may explain why Ozone therapy creates such a rapid improvement in oxygenation.

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fear_mongrels 1 point ago +1 / -0

I think the reference is to acetazolamide.

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Make_Med_Great_Again [S] 1 point ago +1 / -0

Yeah. We've been discussing that one a bit for the last 2 weeks. As of now I am not aware of any evidence it works, but I'm pretty sure once reports come out from any hospital it has any effect everyone is going to jump over it. My personal suspicion is that it's not going to be effective based on it's mechanism vs. the pathophysiology of COVID, but a lot is still unknown over exactly how it treats altitude sickness, so it's possible it may end up working.