The wuhan flu is harmless, since it's indistinguishable from a regular flu season. The only danger is in overreaction.

Part 3

No, retard, I don't think the CPC's dishonesty is limited in any way.

Let me emphasize the most important part of this sentence, which you apparently do not grasp the importance of.

No, retard, I don't think the CPC's dishonesty is limited in any way.

That's the key freaking difference.

The Western Liars spitting out the false Coronavirus toll are limited. They might be able to lie about someone dying in a car crash being killed by ChiCom COVID, they can classify Pneumonia deaths as COVID, and do a lot.

But they mostly can't manufacture corpses to label as "COVID." They also can't really incinerate hundreds of bodies without record. And they have to at least make the Pretense of keeping an ongoing count of the cases. In no small part because Western citizens aren't totally cucked yet and the corrupt arsehats don't have a one party system where Comrade Hillary will lie about everything for them.

The ChiComs don't have any of those problems , or at least in nowhere near the degree their Mirror Image Western Propagandists do.

Indeed, they don't even have to pretend they're keeping an ongoing count.

Lincoln said that if you want to see the measure of a man, give him power.

The West's swamp dwellers have much less power to lie about things than the Chinese swamp dwellers do. Which is why the former are limited in ways the ChiComs aren't.

As even a Lefty Socialist like Orwell could predict, regarding the production of boots.

In any case, sixty-two millions was no nearer the truth than fifty-seven millions, or than a hundred and forty-five millions. Very likely no boots had been produced at all. Likelier still, nobody knew how many had been produced, much less cared. All one knew was that every quarter astronomical numbers of boots were produced on paper, while perhaps half the population of Oceania went barefoot.

Welcome to Socialism, Comrade. Where death itself waits for Comrade Xi's go ahead.

However, I want to re-direct this conversation back away from your manifest emotions, and towards the data.

That'd be a change, considering you haven't provided any data.

I've had to do that for both of us.

Where, in the data, is your assertion of a dangerous virus from Wuhan borne out?

Ask the freaking Taiwanese.

Wuhan Flu is a dangerous virus, just not a greatly dangerous one. It isn't going to end the world but it is something you want to jump on early.

The Taiwanese weren't as ignorant about that principle as you are. Which is precisely why- by recognizing the Coronavirus as the threat it is (no more and no less) they thoroughly kicked its butt without destroying their country or the economy.

It's the flu.

More or less.

The hysteria is the real danger.

Both the Hysteria and the WuFlu are real dangers. The Hysteria's the greater one.

And again, you do NOBODY any service by denying reality.

Which is again why you keep failing to discuss the early spread of this virus correctly (as shown by recorded history), and why the Taiwanese acting fast and smart turned it into a nonissue while the idiots trying to deny that WuFlu was even SOMEWHAT dangerous in Florence and New York racked up deaths that could have been prevented entirely.

You DO remember the ChiCom-Western Leftist propaganda campaign encouraging Italians to hug Chinese people during the early part of the WuFlu spread, right?

So your theory is that the CCP somehow mistook the harmless Wuhan flu for a dangerous virus, then tried to spread it all over the world before realizing it's actually harmless?

No you semi-literate.

My theory is simple.

WuFlu is a marginal danger and the Chinese Communists more or less knew it. It can kill you, but not easily.

But what they DIDN'T know was just how easy it was to get sick with it, and how many people would die from that (they just knew it wasn't a world-ender since they were able to study it in its natural habitat in the Southwest). So while they knew it would not do "World Ending damage", they didn't know how much human or economic damage it COULD do (not much, as it turned out) or how to prepare to pre-empt it, just that it could do said damage. Which is kind of important for the CPC, since they are reliant upon economic growth to avoid people turning on them and that growth has been slowing by the month.

So the virus is something that even saner people than the Chinese Communists would like to research.

Which is why they brought it and several infected bats from their natural habitate to the Wuhan Virology Lab to study them in what they thought was "safety."

They were almost certainly not trying to create a Bioweapon (WuFlu isn't THAT dangerous), but probably to find other ways like how to block transmission.

Unfortunately, the staff on hand were idiots and many got infected (see the video above).

But when some of the medical staff tried to warn people about this, the local Commie Party bosses shut it down, up to and including humiliating and then murdering one of their own doctors.

They did this fearing that if Bad Stuff (TM) happened in their neighborhood they'd be made scapegoats and punished by Xi and the higher ups.

( Which by the way is EXACTLY what happened when the virus spread so widely it became impossible to hide or ignore. )

But to the surprise of what should have been very few people but- as it turned out- far more because of the Local Party Bosses trying to keep it under wraps, the lab's sloppiness ultimately resulted in the virus getting out and starting to infect lots of people and kill a very few of those, damaging the economy about like what you'd expect from a seasonal Flu.

Bit it also brought the attention of XI and the CCP at large. But it also brought it to the attention of the Chinese citizens living under the Party's yoke and several neighboring countries like Taiwan.

And those people began to talk, revealing how the Party had so thoroughly fucked up the situation. And while the CCP can afford to lose hundreds, thousands, and even millions of its own people,. it cannot afford long term economic quarantine and it DEFINITELY can't afford being exposed as ineffective or corrupt.

So the CCP began cracking down.

All the Way Down.

Partially for fear that Commie COVID would devastate the economy and so weaken their power and the iron fist, and partially because they overshot how damaging it was, but primarily in order to Kill The Story. To try and get ahead of events and prevent people from blaming the Party (or at least the National Party) for what happened and retain control with both the regime's credibility and social stability.

To save face.

Which is why when around the time this happened the Taiwanese started warning people about this and send messages to the WHO, the ChiComs worked to shut them out and quash any rumor that there was ANYTHING AT ALL to panic about in Wuhan in order to keep that sweet tourist and export money coming and to buy time to hoard medical supplies in order to try and ride it out.

And it worked far better than it ever should have, because while some people like Trump twigged to it and shut down flights to the PRC, most didn't take such steps.

But the fact that it Worked didn't mean that this actually stopped the spread of ChiCom COVID within China. Like the local party bosses before them, XI and co's decision to bury the story just meant it blew up later, especially since this came after the Chinese Lunar New Year brought people from all across China to Wuhan and then back again.

Fast forward a few months ultimately even puppets like the WHO were limited in how much they could deny the obvious and even looted goods could only go so far. Which led to a vicious little cycle for a bit where the CCP extended its lockdown from Wuhan while at the same time useful idiots like Ferguson and Fauxi gin up panic and shut down the country (along unfortunately with Trump in what I think was an unfortunate overreaction after his initial brilliant one).

And this is bad in a totalitarian regime that doesn't give a fig about human lives but cares greatly about how well its economy is doing. And while Socialists may claim to have transcended our economics, they have the same problems as the rest of us. So like us, the longer they stayed shut down, the more money they bled and the more people get angry. Only Xi faces the prospect of them getting angry not at Governor Whitmer and going to the Ballot Box, but angry at Him and going to war.

So eventually the Party decides it can't wait anymore and opens up long before most countries that bothered shutting down. The fact that this was around the time that the first major reports showing ChiCom COVID wasn't as dangerous as even the mild fears of 1% mortality was- at best- a happy coincidence. Because even if they had people dropping left and right on the assembly line, the Party needs to return to work (like any other economy) in order to avoid them getting 1776'd by a lot of angry, freedom hungry, unemployed Chinese. But it didn't go quite as well as they'd hoped, and in any case they're still kneecapped by being a Socialist Shithole Country.

And it's only NOW- where they're working but most countries that did shut down still are- that they shifted gears from "Everything's Fine Guys!" to "OMG THE SKY IS FALLING" because the longer they can make foreigners believe the Sky is Falling the more lost ground they can make up before getting run over by the Trump Train and other nations not shackled by such a shithole system recovering.

Part 4

China took the regular flu. It reacted to it in a totally insane manner, which made everyone else wonder if there was something to the virus which justified that reaction. It acted in a suspicious manner intended to make us worry, sending travellers from Wuhan everywhere in the world except China. It banked on its lack of credibility by telling us all there was nothing to worry about (which naturally made us worry more). And now that we're all in a panic over nothing, they're advancing their interests in HK, India, Taiwan, the South Pacific, and elsewhere.

Talk about an unsupported goulash of a theory, based around trying to ram your pet idea through the evidence rather than making a new one to fit the evidence. And to think you quoted Occam.

Now, let's go through and tear this apart.

China took the regular flu. It reacted to it in a totally insane manner, which made everyone else wonder if there was something to the virus which justified that reaction.

Finally something we can agree on.

The problem is that a lot of people- either those that don't understand how totalitarian socialists (dys)function or those that are totalitarian socialists themselves- underestimated what the heck this represented. Namely: a combination of the actual, relatively mild Coronavirus illnesses and deaths, typical government overreach, the specifically totalitarian need to black out the news and prevent Bad Think complaining about the government's handling of things, and the Party's desire to keep the economy running at almost any cost, even if Wuhan died off.

So even those who were paying attention probably misread what had happened.

And most people at this time weren't paying attention, partially because of initial obscurity and primarily because of what i'm going to talk about next.

It acted in a suspicious manner intended to make us worry, sending travellers from Wuhan everywhere in the world except China.

You're giving a blinkered, sclerotic socialist dictatorship way too much credit.

They acted in a suspicious manner because they're a totalitarian, corrupt, and not terribly competent dictatorship that figured it's better to look suspicious and tyrannical than it is to look incompetent and impotent.

Which is how you get things like this. Not from 21 million people with phones dying from COVID, but from a few people dying and even more talking, so the CCP figures it needs to shut them up.

This is also why it persecutes people for "Rumor Mongering", as the Voltaire's Ghost and Laowhy videos showed.

As for why it kept sending travellers from Wuhan to everywhere except other places in the PRC, that it desiring to keep the gears of its foreign businesses going, because it knows a degree of economic success (such as it is) is both necessary to avoid revolution and build on sand. So they wanted to avoid having a large scale disruption of it by cutting Wuhan trade, but they wanted to prevent it from spreading to elsewhere in China too.

(Of course, the dumb bastards being who they are, they underestimated how much it had already spread within the PRC).

It banked on its lack of credibility by telling us all there was nothing to worry about

How stupid can you be?

Seriously, have you even ASKED YOURSELF how they would actually go about doing this? Did you compare this theory to what the CCP actually did?

No, of course not.

If you're a crook that wants to launder money, you give your dirty money through a legitimate- or at least supposedly legitimate- source.

If you want to bank on your own lack of credibility in order to use reverse psychology, WHY WOULD YOU GO TO SUCH GREAT PAINS to "launder" your claims through sources that have more credibility (at least supposedly)?

(Sure, those who have worked with the WHO and Left Wing Pols know- or should know- that they aren't credible, but how many people knew that before this? Particularly with things like Tedros the Commie?)

So at the very time your theory posits that the CCP was banking on its own lack of credibility, it was laundering its propaganda through different organs in order to make it more credible.

And indeed, even proposing major PR propaganda stunts with them in order to buttress the central claim of CHINA GOOD, NOTHING TO FEAR, DON'T LISTEN TO THE BAD NEWS.

All of which you flat out memory hole. Because it contradicts your pet theory.

In spite of it being easily confirmable, and making more SENSE for a totalitarian regime that is both obsessed with saving face to its own people and the world, and which has spent billions in propaganda trying to put the best face of "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics" to the world.

And now that we're all in a panic over nothing, they're advancing their interests in HK, India, Taiwan, the South Pacific, and elsewhere.

They've been doing that for Decades. Indeed, they wouldn't have been able to punt stuff like "Hug Chinese Day" in Italy if it weren't for how they've been advancing it.

Your theory only makes sense if the Wuhan flu were dangerous, which it isn't, or if there were some reason to believe the Wuhan flu were dangerous, which there never was to begin with.

More circular BS logic.

WuFlu not being Black Death dangerous doesn't mean it's not dangerous.

And even MORE important for the CCP, it not being very dangerous in terms of deaths doesn't mean it's NOT dangerous in terms of economic damage and social unrest.

Do you remember all those CPC videos of people collapsing because of the virus? Why would they make things up about the virus if it were dangerous? They could have just told the truth about the danger of the virus.

Translation: you're not understanding why the CCP lied, or how. So you're just assuming they lied that the virus was dangerous (again, in spite of the basic timeline contradicting it). That if those videos of seemingly well equipped medical doctors rushing people to the ER were fake, so must reports of the virus's damage. So the CCP must be lying about how dangerous it is.

The problem with this is twofold.

Firstly: this ignores how the CCP spent the first several months of this problem perpetually lying about and downplaying the dangers of the disease.

Secondly: you're wrong in assuming the propaganda videos were about showing how dangerous the virus is.

Because yeah, I remember the CPC videos of people collapsing.

I ALSO remember the videos about the Communist Chinese building a bunch of supposedly new hospitals outside Wuhan to combat the virus.

[And I also remembered how they were utterly unsafe, unusable props that were utterly ignored after the cameras went off.] (https://www.businessinsider.co.za/wuhan-coronavirus-hospitals-not-filling-beds-data-2020-2)

And I also-also know how Chinese whistleblowers have been talking about how the Party has been sending funeral urns and incinerators into the city on the down low.

So unfortunately you've overthought the basics of why the CCP lied. You thought this was part of some 5 Dimensional Chess game in which Xi and the Commies sought to simultaneously spook the rest of the world into economically devastating itself (which happened) while oddly also insisting everything was fine.

In reality it was mostly due to a universal drive for politicians. To look Good. To be seen as decisive leaders. To be seen as "Doing Something Good." And to say "Commie China Number 1!"

Building (so called) hospitals good.

Having well trained medical staff able to react toe vents good.

Sending massive funeral urn shipments NOT so good.

Welding people in to buildings Bad.

See the pattern? The CPC doesn't like stuff that makes it look bad, no matter how true that is. And if there's one thing the CCP has ALWAYS tried to say during this crisis, it's "Commie Party Good."

Occam's Razor.

Anon. This year's flu season would have occurred with or without China's theatrics in Wuhan.

Yes it would have.

No further biological danger or risk was added to the world.

You're assuming that Wuhan COVID isn't another threat, even a minor one, co-existing with normal Flu and other nasty stuff.

We're all just as likely to die of this year's flu as we have been for previous years.

I'd like to see the data for that. Especially if you're going to bitch to me about not having statistics or data.

The only added risk is from the pandemic of hysteria, which is the CPC's only weapon here (since the Wuhan flu is harmless).

See above.

You think the leaders of China are stupid because they advocate socialism for the Chinese masses?

Yes, Yes I do.

Because Socialism is not a system for the masses, it's a system for the Central Planners.

And while even the Chinese Communists weren't capable of completely ignoring how their own system sucks and diluted bits of it, they're still wedded to its core aspects. Which means pervasive lying that Obama could only dream of.

Why are you assuming that a bunch of people whose Top. People. couldn't handle a moderately infectious and not very lethal Bat Virus properly in a Specially Constructed Bio Lab have managed to beat the Socialist Calculation Problem and other problems?

That doesn't mean they're COMPLETE idiots, but they are institutionally shackled to a certain level of stupidity. To do otherwise would mean reform, and Xi and most others don't want that.

The leaks. From Communist China.

Which were crushed with typical communist Brutality. Because even totalitarian regimes have grape vines and underground dissident writing.

The entire panic about the Wuhan flu was leaked intentionally.

No, it wasn't. The leaks came from grassroots leaks from both inside China and especially its neighbors.

The "Entire Panic" leaked out only slowly via Chinese nationals and neighboring countries. Usually acting in the face of denial by useful idiots like WHO and persecution by the CCP.

Doctors have been dying under suspicious circumstances everywhere since the Wuhan flu began. Probably for noticing it's just a flu.

Well, this one was murdered AFTER the Wuhan Flu began, after being ritually humiliated and imprisoned for trying to spread warning that containment breach was a thing.

Fucking hilarious. The guy who insists the Wuhan flu is dangerous and harmful, but can't produce a single shred of evidence beyond "I'm a VoLuNtEeR, Ok??", now accuses me of trying to fit the facts to a pre-conceived theory.

I take back the "semi-literate."

Which is probably part of the reason why you refuse to look at what the CCP actually did during the time you were claiming it was trying to weaponize hysteria.

And because you're so wedded to the idea that a Flu isn't dangerous just because it hasn't killed you yet and it is less infective and murderous than the Black Death.

Which makes about as much sense as noting that shark attacks are rare and usually not lethal, so they're not dangerous and there is no point making shark repellent or weapons that can drive off a Great White.

Part 2 > The controversial opinion that you seem to hold is that China is any good at it. They're not. Far better parties than them, such as the Russians and the US and the Jesuits, have tried to create a deadly contagious virus. They have all failed.

No, we've created plenty of deadly contagious viruses. The "Bio-Chernobyl" the Soviets caused was on the Aral Sea and involved supersouped up Anthrax (technically a bacteria rather than a virus, but involving similar scientific and production demands).

Which is one reason why we stopped doing it as often. Because we got bored of it and had more than enough deadly bioweapons we couldn't really use but which could have disastrous consequences if we F--ked up with production or containment, as the Soviets at Aralsk-7 Showed.

We still RESEARCH them and produce them, but in much smaller quantities.

The problem is that you seem to think- or act- as if all Virological research is Bioweapons Research. Which is about as ignorant as assuming that all research in construction engineering is to go into build better fortifications.

So, evidently, has China. But they would have already known that,

Uh, no, no we don't.

We've got plenty of reason to know that the ChiComs have deadly engineered viruses.

Wu Flu just wasn't one of them. In the same way that having cultures of the Black Death in secured bioweapons vaults doesn't mean someone is going to try and weaponize the Common Cold. But they ARE probably going to study it, various normal Flus, and the like.

there's no way anyone would have mistaken the Wuhan flu for a dangerous virus. Which is why the plan from the beginning was to spread hysteria. Which they've done nicely.

The logical incoherence behind this is ludicrous.

WuFlu is a Dangerous virus, but not a Highly Dangerous or even moderately dangerous one like Virus. And certainly nowhere near what one would want in a Bioweapon.

Nobody should mistake ChiCom Flu for a Bioweapon, it is nowhere near effective or lethal enough. But there's plenty of reasons to research a virus other than "LET'S WMD IT!" In the same reason there's plenty of reason to research Nuclears without "LET'S MAKE A BIGGER TSAR BOMBA!"

And the Chicom plan wasn't to "spread hysteria from the beginning." Again, their actions show this was to the contrary.

The ChiComs were almost certainly trying to research a more or less mundane case of COVID in Bats and how it might jump to humans (probably in order to find ways to inhibit it or- waaay down the road- weaponize it), but their incompetence meant that they couldn't study it safely. Local party officials tried to muzzle reports of problems at the Lab. So a bunch of staff at the lab got sick, and ultimately the Virus broke containment.

When the CCP at large realized the scope of the problem, they lied through their teeth and claimed everything was alright, intentionally shouting over more honest reports like those by Taiwan that while this wasn't a world-ending problem, it was a problem (and the quicker you jump on a problem, the quicker and easier it is to Solve said problem, as Taiwan's smackdown of WuFlu shows).

Again, THIS IS WHY TRUMP CONDEMNED THE CCP AND WHO (but I repeat myself) FOR LYING ABOUT THE THREAT. At a time when SOME degree of controlled panic was healthy in order to try and make proper preparations to isolate this thing, the CCP sabotaged it.

Which helped enable a bunch of Leftist Control Freaks abroad to shout that the World was Ending unless the Free World surrendered its Freedom to Mask-Stasi.

You haven't provided any evidence to support your claims. I have provided plenty of evidence to puncture them, starting with how the basic timeline doesn't work.

So where are all the moderately debilitated Wuhan flu patients? Where are the elevated rates of death?

Simple, dumbarse.

As for the "moderately debilitated Wuhan flu patients", ask around and you might be able to find them. Starting with hospital records, though those are extreme lowball figures since most people with WuFlu didn't go to the Hospital because it wasn't serious or they didn't know it.

Then look through the number of people who have been tested for Antibodies and rung up positive, indicating they found it.

As for evidence of an elevated death toll...

Take the "Official", Artificially inflated numbers of COVID deaths

Prune as much obvious BS as you can off of it, such as the number of people marked "Dead of COVID" after being shot or in a car crash.

Then start adding up the "Official", almost-certianly-artificially-deflated numbers of deaths from causes other than COVID.

Like Flu.

And Pneumonia

(Those are just to get you started. There are more.)

Then compare them to previous, pre-ChiCom Flu mortality seasons from the

Like this for the 2017-2018 Flu Season

Obviously, this isn't all the data you'd need (though I note it's still far more than you've EVER provided at any point in this exchange), but it's the right KIND of data you'd need to look for.

And after gathering it all, you'd add up th BS inflated Coronavirus deaths for 2020+ the BS deflated other-causes deaths for it and get Sum 1.

Then you'd add together the Death Tolls for the "Normal" Causes from another year and get Sum 2 (and then for another year and get Sum 3, and so on).

Then you see if Sum 1 is Greater Than, Equal To, or Less Than the death toll Sum 2, Sum 3/Sum Insert Number here.

And you'd have a PALLPARK guesstimate about the death rate of the 2020 Spring Sickness Season (and COVID) compared to others. Average that out and you get it.

Will you refer me back to your experience as a volunteer again, instead of referring to statistics and data?

Oh this is Rich.

But to answer your question: the above text spam shows that No, no I didn't "instead of."

But secondly: it's rich you of all people are trying to claim that, considering you haven't even provided a single bit of evidence, statistics, or data for anybody to believe you, not even a surface level statement that "I Iz expert in Mechanical Surgery".

And many of your claims- such as that the CCP intended to use WuFlu as a weapon of mass hysteria against the West from the get go- are easily contradicted by the arcane art of looking at the goddamn timeline. And seeing how far from trying to spread Panic abroad, the CCP spent months TRYING TO PREVENT other nations from panicking and taking precautions like Trump's stopping of flights.

Here, I will highlight the most important word in the above statement:

And unsurprisingly, you fail at this just as comprehensively as you fail at "reading a timeline."

The most important word in the above statement isn't "Can" (and frankly I mis-wrote, considering the proper phrase should be "DOES." As in, it Does kill thousands every single year.)

The most important word in the above statement isn't "Can."

It's "Understand."

If there's one thing you have shown thus far, it's that you don't understand much in the way of anything, ranging from Bioweapons research (which is apparently the kind of virology anyone does according to you?) to average influenza deaths, to what is dangerous.

Fuck off with these shitty projections. Let us discuss actual data, in which nothing you are saying above has come true.

Shitty projector accuses other people of shitty projections, film at eleven.

Again, this is ironic.

At no point in this discussion have you cited "actual data." The only links about it are coming from me.

And not only has much that I have said come true, plenty of it came true MONTHS ago.

Because one of the most clearcut and unambiguous bits of "actual data" in today's wired up recording world is a Date. Which is why it's incredibly easy to verify things like WHO acting as a propaganda arm of the ChiComs and saying "China has not found any evidence of human to human transmission" back in January.

Something that thoroughly guts your beloved theory that the CCP intended to use this virus as a weapon of mass panic from the start by showing that the CCP was trying to prevent panic at the time, even reasonable levels of preparation.

And which you have At No Point Whatsoever addressed. Probably because you can't.

Neither the facts nor the law of the case are on your side, so you've apparently decided to pound the table, complaining about me simplifying or summarizing data while not providing any of your own.

Well, that's no longer going to fly.

Stop wasting my time.

None of this answered my question, which was "why do you trust faked US data over faked Chinese data"?

Then you simply don't know how to read. And you certainly don't know jack about Socialism.

Faked US and other Western Coronavirus figures are mostly faked by mislabeling deaths from other viruses (or even entire causes altogether) as WuFlu, in no small part because it's kind of hard even in Kaiser Wilhelm's New York City to completely conceal the number of people dying. So they have to stick closer to the numbers.

The CCP, on the other hand, are totalitarian socialists. So they not only can do everything the people faking the numbers over here can do, they can invent numbers out of whole cloth and quash anybody trying to gainsay their obviously bogus numbers.

And indeed, they kind of HAVE to because Socialism is such a failure they can't reliably get even passable estimates, so they largely BS them and then try to make policy based on them.

Simply put: The fraudsters in the West are mostly MIScounting actual deaths and lying about people investigating them like citizen journalists.

The fraudsters in the CCP don't have to count at all, and can simply adjust them with a wave of a magic wand and can shoot or imprison anybody they catch contradicting them.

Do I really have to explain to you how the latter "process" will almost invariably churn out numbers less related to reality than the former?

Apparently so.

They're both fake.

A sleazy millionaire (like say Mr. and Mrs. Sanders) mis-filing his tax returns will give a fake figure.

So will a member of the "Nigerian Royalty" promising you millions of dollars in exchange for a down payment.

Does that mean that both figures are equally fake?

That's basically your logic.

This is a normal flu season.

More or less agreed.

Unless the Wuhan flu has somehow cured the flu and replaced it with a virus which, for all intents and purposes, is the flu. But I'm going to go with Occam on that one.

Except even the hard core Dem liars aren't completely claiming that, only "largely." Hence why they haven't completely abolished normal flu deaths even as they've stolen lots from it.

You're getting hyperemotional, which is how you've concluded I'm a PRC shill. Fucking kek.

Again, coming from someone who can't dispute basic DATES that contradict his pet theory and engages in CCP shill style whataboutism of "They're both fake! So why should we trust the corrupt but at least somewhat realistic numbers compared to those that obviously aren't counting anything but what comes out of XI's cloaca?"

If your claims are so poor and deny similar things to what CCP shills deny (like Taiwan shouting there was a problem and being ignored), do you deserve more respect?

I get tired of intellectually dishonest runarounds, and that is what you are doing.

Since the Wuhan flu isn't dangerous, we are left to conclude that the only danger that spread from Wuhan is government overreaction.

Circular "Logic" that fails to prove its necessary assumption: that Wuhan Flu isn't dangerous.

It is. It's just not ultra-dangerous and has a high infectivity, low mortality profile like the Flu. And I hate to tell you this, the Flu's dangerous. Primarily to those in certain at risk demographics (like the old, the young, people with breathing problems, and so forth). But you do have a fair few healthy-as-a-bull people keel over and die of it every year.

That's dangerous, but it's not existential. Take reasonable precautions (which are usually less intrusive than the Masked Mooks demand) and soldier on so that even when people die, most people and the society survive more or less unhindered.

That's the problem. You're acting as if ChiCom Flu is not merely no more dangerous than the Flu (which is correct, and if anything even less dangerous with proper treatment since as the Hydro-Zinc Cocktail), but far far less.

If you're trying to spread overreaction, would you try to stop the spread of the virus in earnest?

"That which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

You have provided absolutely zero evidence that the initial response of the CCP was to SPREAD overreaction. Indeed, the evidence I have presented shows that their initial reaction was to do the exact INVERSE of spreading overreaction to different countries: it was to impose UNDER-REACTION on Wuhan by dint of locking up whistle-blowers cutting news, and generally acting as if everything was "Fine." Initially this was just the local party bosses trying to avoid "rumors" (protip: tyrannical assholes hate "rumors") and avoid being blamed.

But when the infection at Wuhan blew up too hard for them to keep a lid on, the PRC decided not to spread overreaction, but to spread the disease. And one of the ways they did this was about LYING about how the disease spread and how prolific it was.

And that's Literally. As in the Commie Ethiopian shill at the head of WHO lying through his teeth claiming there was no evidence of human to human transmission even though by this point the CCP must have known.

And the Communist propagandists continued to parrot this "Nothing to see Here, everything is in Order" while smearing or downplaying reports from nations that aren't Totalitarian Shitholes in order to sabotage other nations and give their state-sponsored looters the time to hoard our goods.

So they spent the crucial breakout period of the disease doing the exact Inverse of spreading Overreaction. First domestically due to the CYA/Saving Face mentality of the Communist Party and the local authorities' concern they might get scapegoated for what happened (as they were), and Secondly internationally as the ChiComs and their fellow shills lied about the gravity of the disease and shut down the based, knowledgeable people trying to warn so this virus could be gotten in hand such as Taiwan.

And no, it's not a coincidence that Taiwan was one of those screaming about the threat of this thing the loudest while its death and infection rates are so low and its "lockdown" measures are so lax. Because An Ounce of Prevention is worth a Pound of Cure. And being proactive and GETTING ON a disease's trace means you can limit how far it spreads and how much damage it does.

The CCP lying and trying to spread UNDERreaction helped this virus cause the damage it did, both in terms of those directly affected and in the retarded-psychopath overreach by governmental goons claiming "We will totally relinquish these emergency powers."

Trying to spread OVERreaction- like the CCP and co are doing now- was late in the game, now that the virus has spread about as far and as deep as it's going to this season, herd immunity's building up, and the West and ChiComChina's other rivals are starting to reopen.

Flu and pneumonia deaths are down this year as Wuhan flu deaths are up. Nothing more dangerous than normal has been released.

Agreed.

So we can agree that WuFlu IS dangerous, just a mundane kind of dangerous like what a functional society deals with every single day.

Except for mass hysteria, of course. That has spread from its epicentre in Wuhan very nicely.

Again, no it wasn't. You're trying to marry your pet theory without providing evidence.

Mass hysteria didn't spread out from an epicenter in Wuhan. Mass hysteria spread out from almost every OTHER Place from a combination of sane and reasonable warnings (like those by Taiwan) being blown out of proportion, and unscrupulous BS from power grabby scum like Fauxci and the Imperial College Scammer.

The CCP was a late convert to spreading the gospel of mass hysteria, in part because they were worried about it rebounding into their face as people asked "Where did this come from?" (and for instance having punitive action like what Trump is proposing levied on them) or Chinese people saying "What did you do about this?!?", and in part because other left wing tyrants elsewhere beat them to it. The CCP's spreading it NOW because it has no real benefit pretending that nothing happened, but there is benefit in keeping other countries shut down as long as it can and helping their petty tyrants usurp as much power as they can.

Put it simply:

Commie Party at the start: "What are you talking about, a leak? YOU ARE A DOUBLE PLUS BAD WRONGTHINKER. Apologize to the party for daring to say there's a threat! Oh, and by the way enjoy being thrown in a dank cell with COVID...."

Commie Party Stage 2: "EVERYTHING IS FINE! Do not think. Consume. China is cleanest race. Ignore subhuman mongrels like Taiwan. No evidence of human to human transmissability! There's no NEED To stop flights!"

Commie Party Stage 3: "In the DARKEST OF DAYS as the decadent West allowed the Black Death to spread and destroy its society, the Heroic Peoples' Party arose to quell rumor mongering and bring effective treatment, thus showing the Communist Party is ordained by Marx-Heaven to rule foreigner. So while China can tentatively reopen, the barbaric savages abroad would be insane to, since they are totally more afflicted than we are! Praise Chairman Xi, Helm man of destiny!"

This is why I chew you out for not timelining this.

So more people are going to die of pnuemonia and other Wuhan flu related complications this year than normal?

I don't know. If I had to wager a guess I would say "probably, marginally", most likely because even the most dishonest and thoroughly corrupt Western globalist medical hack in the West isn't claiming that Literally NOBODY has died of plain old Flu this season even as they shamelessly stripe mine most of those deaths to relabel as Coronavirus. Meaning that they still acknowledge Flu deaths are a separate thing, even if they have "mysteriously" decreased due to mislabeling them as WuFlu deaths (or WuFlu "Stealing" those deaths naturally).

So you PROBABLY have a small increase in ChiCom COVID deaths put on top of the bog standard "Flu Season + Other deaths."

If not, where is the "harm"? Except, of course, in the mass hysteria.

Simple.

If my theory is correct and there is indeed a slight increase in overall deaths from WuFlu mingling with other deaths, then the provable harm is from the excess.

And if my theory ISN'T correct, the harm is the background statistical noise of more or less routine death. Still harm, but "within normal parameters."

Neither of which are as damaging as the mass hysteria or Swamp State usurpation we've seen gutting our economy and civic culture that were Also spurred by this thing (But of course, by your logic we could point to Swampy corruption and tyranny and economic sabotage going well before even Wuhan had Wuhan Flu and say "Well, what's the harm? It was already happening" while ignoring the intensification of it). But still worth noting.

Oh, so you have access to more accurate statistics than I do? Could you post them?

No, I don't have access to more accurate statistics than you do, though I do know how to find what statistics we have acess to more easily.

The difference is I can interpret them better.

Because I both have some minimal medical experience, and because I'm not a credulous idiot.

Which is why you're caught screaming about "Why are China's death numbers so hard to believe?" and "These faked numbers are more accurate than those faked numbers? On what basis?"

Because apparently you've never read 1984 or understand how pervasive Commie book cooking is, much less how either side arrived at their numbers.

The wrong numbers of COVID deaths and infections in the US, UK, and other nations are based off of normal recording- along with "normal" mistakes like miscounting, double counting, or massaging the numbers to get them low- that are then skewed after the fact using number games, such as slapping normal Flu deaths as WuFlu deaths.

But the wrong numbers for COVID deaths and infections from the CCP have the "added bonus" of coming from a totalitarian dictatorship that is not shy about COMPLETELY INVENTING numbers from whole cloth and is not about to provide any evidence or external review whatsoever. And who are willing to do stuff like vanish people into literal incinerators in the same way that they lie about the US having the largest per capita prison population by pretending that Commie Party Laogai and secretive Blacksites don't exist.

That's the basis for why the West's faked numbers are more accurate than ChiCom faked numbers. As you'd know if you thought about it for five seconds.

There's a reason appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.

Firstly: Argument from Ignorance is also a logical fallacy, and it amounts to almost everything you've done in this conversation

Secondly: You're confusing the Argument from Authority fallacy with assessing information gotten by and presented by "So-Called" Experts. Which one can then analyze.

For instance, this is why I am so confident dismissing the CCP numbers, which have a much, much higher probability of simply being invented from whole cloth than our own, in spite of both being wrong.

Put it simply: there's a qualitative difference between saying a Turkey is a Duck, and saying a Turkey is a Black Hole. Both are wrong, but the former is less wrong than the latter. And the latter indicates that someone isn't even looking at or knowledgeable of the actual information.

So? China is researching bioweapons, this isn't controversial.

Except the Wuhan COVID research was almost certainly not Bioweapons research.

Firstly because it was the study of a naturally occurring disease, secondly because even in its current form its lethality is so low (and the CCP showed so little ability to control it, hence the staff infections Laowhy's video covered), and thirdly because Most Bio Research isn't Bioweapons Research.

For the same reason your average GMO isn't trying to create the next biological nuke. That stuff has other utilities than trying to come up with yet another rare white elephant doomsday weapon that is a niche at best.