He was apparently having cardiac type health issues and collapsing to the ground before Chauvin even arrived on the scene though. The knee restraint only happened just prior to start of the belated video, and Floyd had been struggling and complaining for several minutes prior. Given his eventual death his first collapse and complaint of "claustrophobia" was probably him feeling unable to breathe even then. Floyd's fate was likely sealed before anybody put a knee on him.
And then if it was only temporary pressure on his neck that shut him down, the EMT's would have probably been able to jump-start him in the ambulance. They arrived in plenty of time for that from when we see Floyd go unresponsive. A severe heart-attack on the other hand is harder to revive.
Hopefully the first autopsy will have some certainty to the conclusion, before we have to worry about the celebrity M.E.'s motives when he gets around to a second one.
People assume that though I've not seen that it's clear. Just he didn't want to get in the car. I believe that he resisted by just falling on the ground so they would have to carry him in or something. I've yet to find footage of how he ends up on his front like that.
It's possible he was having an issue before hand but it's not easy or necessarily even possible to tell that from the effects of intoxication, emotion, etc.
Carotid and hypoventilation are very subtle. It's hard to say if they're likely on their own. Carotid damage or compression could conceivably cause secondary effects. The nose bleed isn't well looked into. On thing can lead to another.
Three minutes is close to the time needed for brain death to start but at the same time usually would give time for a chance of revival as well.
This is in part why its stupid they completely ignored his state. In the off chance they were doing something to precipitate or exacerbate it they wouldn't have found out continuing to restrain him like that.
They failed to eliminate themselves as a causative factor which is something that even reasonable people don't find very competent.
Heart attack or stroke is more plausible an explanation which is why it's picking up traction.
Unfortunately it was their job to possibly be a causative factor in his death. Getting that job done puts them in a position where that's always a risk. That's why there's the public perception that cops are all vindictive raciscts eager to kill all the good little choir-boys who of course did nothing to require police intervention. Correlation is not causation. Anyway the witnesses and body cams will sort everything out. Aside from the official timeline we've yet to see any bodycam or hear the officer or bystanders full account...
8:08 p.m. – A clerk at Cup Foods called 911 to report that a man bought merchandise at the store using a counterfeit $20 bill. Officers Thomas Lane and J. Alexander Kueng arrive at the store and locate Floyd in a nearby vehicle with two other people.
As he is speaking with Floyd, Lane pulls his gun out, points it at Floyd through Floyd’s open window and orders him to show his hands. When Floyd puts his hands on the steering wheel, Lane puts his gun back in the holster.
The officers eventually order Floyd him of the vehicle and handcuff him, despite some resistance.
After being handcuffed, Floyd becomes compliant. The officers sit him down on the sidewalk and talk with him for two minutes, during which they ask if he is “on anything” and explain that he is being arrested.
8:14 p.m. – Kueng and Lane attempt to walk Floyd to their squad car, but Floyd stiffened up, fell to the ground and told the officers he was claustrophobic. Chauvin and Thoa arrive in a separate squad car.
The officers make several attempts to get Floyd into the squad car, but he struggles with officers.
While standing outside the car, Floyd begins saying and repeating that he cannot breathe. Chauvin tries to get Floyd into the squad car with help from Lane and Kueng.
8:19 p.m. – Chauvin pulls Floyd out of the squad car. Floyd goes to the ground face down and still handcuffed. Kueng holds his back and Lane holds his legs. Chauvin presses his knee onto Floyds neck. Floyd repeats, “I can’t breathe.”
At one point, Lane asks, “Should we roll him on his side?” and Chauvin says no. Lane says he is worried about “excited delirium” Chauvin responds, “that’s why we have him on his stomach." None of the three officers moved from their positions.
8:24 p.m. – Body camera video shows Floyd stop moving.
8:25 p.m. – Body camera video appears to show Floyd ceasing to breathe or speak. Kueng checked Floyd’s pulse and says he cannot find one. None of the officers moved from their positions.
8:27 p.m. – Chauvin removes his knee from Floyd’s neck. An ambulance and paramedics arrives and the officers place Floyd on a gurney.
9:25 p.m. – Floyd was pronounced dead at the Hennepin County Medical Center, according to the medical examiner’s report.
Unfortunately it was their job to possibly be a causative factor in his death.
I take that into account. Other people don't sadly. That doesn't mean they did their job amazingly either. People also have good days and bad days.
Single perspectives are a problem. An EMT would look at the situation completely differently without having a concept of the law enforcement aspect. Someone in the background took that angle.
I reject the notion that he shouldn't have been restrained in the first place.
If he said he couldn't breath while standing up and not being restrained that's a new detail.
I thought it was two people restraining but three. I still hold that their restraint could have been done better and ended up being excessive. I don't know if I would support firing or bringing up charges for that but it's something you would expect there to be some admonishment at least.
You don't want cops under restraining either though. You want to improve their judgement.
Most aspects of a situation are mundane. Not going lightly on the restraint was most likely purely because he was an unusually big man and well built.
There's a difference between condemnation and criticism. Between 24 and 27 is when they make the only serious mistake. It's incompetent enough it's easy to imagine it's deliberate though I don't think it is. It is in the moment. Three minutes isn't a long time or a short time in the context. It's borderline.
Excited delirium (and adrenaline burst / shock) is a real thing but I think they were being over cautious about it. It's really just people spazzing out, losing it, it happens. For the state attributed to drugs I don't entirely know but that state doesn't require drugs. The state he was in wasn't that far gone.
You can look at other cases of people being restrained believed to have that:
Lots of ED videos have people having to go all in. They seem to have done that for Floyd but he wasn't in that state or at that extreme so what you have is being somewhat premature. You also see in retrain videos people doing it the way I say it should be done but one difference. They put their weight on the left leg and have the right over the body which makes a lot more sense.
Chauvin looks even more physically awkward and untrained when going by comparisons.
They were right to worry about excited delirium. The four cops literally tried and failed to force him (while handcuffed) into the vehicle for several minutes and had to eventually give up and force him down in the gutter. He essentially overpowered all four of them. The had every indication that they might still lose control of him again if they let up.
He was apparently having cardiac type health issues and collapsing to the ground before Chauvin even arrived on the scene though. The knee restraint only happened just prior to start of the belated video, and Floyd had been struggling and complaining for several minutes prior. Given his eventual death his first collapse and complaint of "claustrophobia" was probably him feeling unable to breathe even then. Floyd's fate was likely sealed before anybody put a knee on him.
And then if it was only temporary pressure on his neck that shut him down, the EMT's would have probably been able to jump-start him in the ambulance. They arrived in plenty of time for that from when we see Floyd go unresponsive. A severe heart-attack on the other hand is harder to revive.
Hopefully the first autopsy will have some certainty to the conclusion, before we have to worry about the celebrity M.E.'s motives when he gets around to a second one.
People assume that though I've not seen that it's clear. Just he didn't want to get in the car. I believe that he resisted by just falling on the ground so they would have to carry him in or something. I've yet to find footage of how he ends up on his front like that.
It's possible he was having an issue before hand but it's not easy or necessarily even possible to tell that from the effects of intoxication, emotion, etc.
Carotid and hypoventilation are very subtle. It's hard to say if they're likely on their own. Carotid damage or compression could conceivably cause secondary effects. The nose bleed isn't well looked into. On thing can lead to another.
Three minutes is close to the time needed for brain death to start but at the same time usually would give time for a chance of revival as well.
This is in part why its stupid they completely ignored his state. In the off chance they were doing something to precipitate or exacerbate it they wouldn't have found out continuing to restrain him like that.
They failed to eliminate themselves as a causative factor which is something that even reasonable people don't find very competent.
Heart attack or stroke is more plausible an explanation which is why it's picking up traction.
Unfortunately it was their job to possibly be a causative factor in his death. Getting that job done puts them in a position where that's always a risk. That's why there's the public perception that cops are all vindictive raciscts eager to kill all the good little choir-boys who of course did nothing to require police intervention. Correlation is not causation. Anyway the witnesses and body cams will sort everything out. Aside from the official timeline we've yet to see any bodycam or hear the officer or bystanders full account...
8:08 p.m. – A clerk at Cup Foods called 911 to report that a man bought merchandise at the store using a counterfeit $20 bill. Officers Thomas Lane and J. Alexander Kueng arrive at the store and locate Floyd in a nearby vehicle with two other people.
As he is speaking with Floyd, Lane pulls his gun out, points it at Floyd through Floyd’s open window and orders him to show his hands. When Floyd puts his hands on the steering wheel, Lane puts his gun back in the holster.
The officers eventually order Floyd him of the vehicle and handcuff him, despite some resistance. After being handcuffed, Floyd becomes compliant. The officers sit him down on the sidewalk and talk with him for two minutes, during which they ask if he is “on anything” and explain that he is being arrested.
8:14 p.m. – Kueng and Lane attempt to walk Floyd to their squad car, but Floyd stiffened up, fell to the ground and told the officers he was claustrophobic. Chauvin and Thoa arrive in a separate squad car.
The officers make several attempts to get Floyd into the squad car, but he struggles with officers. While standing outside the car, Floyd begins saying and repeating that he cannot breathe. Chauvin tries to get Floyd into the squad car with help from Lane and Kueng.
8:19 p.m. – Chauvin pulls Floyd out of the squad car. Floyd goes to the ground face down and still handcuffed. Kueng holds his back and Lane holds his legs. Chauvin presses his knee onto Floyds neck. Floyd repeats, “I can’t breathe.”
At one point, Lane asks, “Should we roll him on his side?” and Chauvin says no. Lane says he is worried about “excited delirium” Chauvin responds, “that’s why we have him on his stomach." None of the three officers moved from their positions.
8:24 p.m. – Body camera video shows Floyd stop moving.
8:25 p.m. – Body camera video appears to show Floyd ceasing to breathe or speak. Kueng checked Floyd’s pulse and says he cannot find one. None of the officers moved from their positions.
8:27 p.m. – Chauvin removes his knee from Floyd’s neck. An ambulance and paramedics arrives and the officers place Floyd on a gurney.
9:25 p.m. – Floyd was pronounced dead at the Hennepin County Medical Center, according to the medical examiner’s report.
I take that into account. Other people don't sadly. That doesn't mean they did their job amazingly either. People also have good days and bad days.
Single perspectives are a problem. An EMT would look at the situation completely differently without having a concept of the law enforcement aspect. Someone in the background took that angle.
I reject the notion that he shouldn't have been restrained in the first place.
If he said he couldn't breath while standing up and not being restrained that's a new detail.
I thought it was two people restraining but three. I still hold that their restraint could have been done better and ended up being excessive. I don't know if I would support firing or bringing up charges for that but it's something you would expect there to be some admonishment at least.
You don't want cops under restraining either though. You want to improve their judgement.
Most aspects of a situation are mundane. Not going lightly on the restraint was most likely purely because he was an unusually big man and well built.
There's a difference between condemnation and criticism. Between 24 and 27 is when they make the only serious mistake. It's incompetent enough it's easy to imagine it's deliberate though I don't think it is. It is in the moment. Three minutes isn't a long time or a short time in the context. It's borderline.
Excited delirium (and adrenaline burst / shock) is a real thing but I think they were being over cautious about it. It's really just people spazzing out, losing it, it happens. For the state attributed to drugs I don't entirely know but that state doesn't require drugs. The state he was in wasn't that far gone.
You can look at other cases of people being restrained believed to have that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEF7yrMXoJI
Lots of ED videos have people having to go all in. They seem to have done that for Floyd but he wasn't in that state or at that extreme so what you have is being somewhat premature. You also see in retrain videos people doing it the way I say it should be done but one difference. They put their weight on the left leg and have the right over the body which makes a lot more sense.
Chauvin looks even more physically awkward and untrained when going by comparisons.
They were right to worry about excited delirium. The four cops literally tried and failed to force him (while handcuffed) into the vehicle for several minutes and had to eventually give up and force him down in the gutter. He essentially overpowered all four of them. The had every indication that they might still lose control of him again if they let up.