Unfortunately it was their job to possibly be a causative factor in his death. Getting that job done puts them in a position where that's always a risk. That's why there's the public perception that cops are all vindictive raciscts eager to kill all the good little choir-boys who of course did nothing to require police intervention. Correlation is not causation. Anyway the witnesses and body cams will sort everything out. Aside from the official timeline we've yet to see any bodycam or hear the officer or bystanders full account...
8:08 p.m. – A clerk at Cup Foods called 911 to report that a man bought merchandise at the store using a counterfeit $20 bill. Officers Thomas Lane and J. Alexander Kueng arrive at the store and locate Floyd in a nearby vehicle with two other people.
As he is speaking with Floyd, Lane pulls his gun out, points it at Floyd through Floyd’s open window and orders him to show his hands. When Floyd puts his hands on the steering wheel, Lane puts his gun back in the holster.
The officers eventually order Floyd him of the vehicle and handcuff him, despite some resistance.
After being handcuffed, Floyd becomes compliant. The officers sit him down on the sidewalk and talk with him for two minutes, during which they ask if he is “on anything” and explain that he is being arrested.
8:14 p.m. – Kueng and Lane attempt to walk Floyd to their squad car, but Floyd stiffened up, fell to the ground and told the officers he was claustrophobic. Chauvin and Thoa arrive in a separate squad car.
The officers make several attempts to get Floyd into the squad car, but he struggles with officers.
While standing outside the car, Floyd begins saying and repeating that he cannot breathe. Chauvin tries to get Floyd into the squad car with help from Lane and Kueng.
8:19 p.m. – Chauvin pulls Floyd out of the squad car. Floyd goes to the ground face down and still handcuffed. Kueng holds his back and Lane holds his legs. Chauvin presses his knee onto Floyds neck. Floyd repeats, “I can’t breathe.”
At one point, Lane asks, “Should we roll him on his side?” and Chauvin says no. Lane says he is worried about “excited delirium” Chauvin responds, “that’s why we have him on his stomach." None of the three officers moved from their positions.
8:24 p.m. – Body camera video shows Floyd stop moving.
8:25 p.m. – Body camera video appears to show Floyd ceasing to breathe or speak. Kueng checked Floyd’s pulse and says he cannot find one. None of the officers moved from their positions.
8:27 p.m. – Chauvin removes his knee from Floyd’s neck. An ambulance and paramedics arrives and the officers place Floyd on a gurney.
9:25 p.m. – Floyd was pronounced dead at the Hennepin County Medical Center, according to the medical examiner’s report.
Unfortunately it was their job to possibly be a causative factor in his death.
I take that into account. Other people don't sadly. That doesn't mean they did their job amazingly either. People also have good days and bad days.
Single perspectives are a problem. An EMT would look at the situation completely differently without having a concept of the law enforcement aspect. Someone in the background took that angle.
I reject the notion that he shouldn't have been restrained in the first place.
If he said he couldn't breath while standing up and not being restrained that's a new detail.
I thought it was two people restraining but three. I still hold that their restraint could have been done better and ended up being excessive. I don't know if I would support firing or bringing up charges for that but it's something you would expect there to be some admonishment at least.
You don't want cops under restraining either though. You want to improve their judgement.
Most aspects of a situation are mundane. Not going lightly on the restraint was most likely purely because he was an unusually big man and well built.
There's a difference between condemnation and criticism. Between 24 and 27 is when they make the only serious mistake. It's incompetent enough it's easy to imagine it's deliberate though I don't think it is. It is in the moment. Three minutes isn't a long time or a short time in the context. It's borderline.
Excited delirium (and adrenaline burst / shock) is a real thing but I think they were being over cautious about it. It's really just people spazzing out, losing it, it happens. For the state attributed to drugs I don't entirely know but that state doesn't require drugs. The state he was in wasn't that far gone.
You can look at other cases of people being restrained believed to have that:
Lots of ED videos have people having to go all in. They seem to have done that for Floyd but he wasn't in that state or at that extreme so what you have is being somewhat premature. You also see in retrain videos people doing it the way I say it should be done but one difference. They put their weight on the left leg and have the right over the body which makes a lot more sense.
Chauvin looks even more physically awkward and untrained when going by comparisons.
They were right to worry about excited delirium. The four cops literally tried and failed to force him (while handcuffed) into the vehicle for several minutes and had to eventually give up and force him down in the gutter. He essentially overpowered all four of them. The had every indication that they might still lose control of him again if they let up.
They were right to be worried about it but they could also have read the situation better and done better. If you're worried about ED then you can do better. This is where single mindedness can be a problem all around. If you want to see signs of ED then you'll find them.
If you only have one thing on your mind you won't do a good job. You have to have on your mind ED, not ED and anything else that might happen such as heart attack from OD.
I've seen at least some brief clips and I would have read the situation a bit differently. However their misread isn't entirely unfounded. It's not like they didn't have cause to think something.
If you watch the clips he doesn't appear at any point to indicate any violent intent but he was using his physique to not cooperate. There's a brief moment he just falls to the floor so overpowered them is a bit misleading if in that respect. It was a gravity assist but it looks to me like it caught some of the officers a bit off guard when he sat down suddenly like that.
When he's on the floor the officer says will he get in the car and Floyd submits says he will but the officer does nothing. That was just dumb. He was calm and coherent enough from the video that you would not call that ED.
Another thing to consider is that the people antagonising the cops may have given some distraction preventing them from being able to deal with Floyd more attentively. They might have been right that the means of restraint wasn't optimal and that they should have stopped restraining him so heavily like that when he was unresponsive but they were also adding additional threat.
Once they pile on him beside the car they've already called the ambulance and are done fooling around with trying to take him into custody. Doesn't matter after that if he becomes willing to "cooperate" or get in the car. From then on their main concern is not letting him complicate things further. What if they let up on him and then they end up having to mace, taze, or shoot him later?
Also we know now that he was high on both fentanyl which kills people through cardio-pulmonary depression, and meth which which can make them hyper and irrational. A dangerous cocktail. It looks to me other than the initial struggles, Chauvin had most of his weight if not all on his back leg, not the neck, and early on his knee was partly on Floyd's jaw. The coroners even taking the video evidence into account with their reports is BS. Since there was no neck trauma, their assumption the knee played any part among the many possibilities that triggered his heart attack is no better than anyone else's. It certainly didn't play any part in Floyd's apparent problems prior to their final takedown.
Then there's the basic but unpopular premise that "if you can say you can't breathe, you can breathe". The three cops on Floyd weren't preventing his breathing enough to kill him without a lot of help from drugs or a heart attack. They may not have done the optimum thing for a man in Floyd's condition, but I think it may be unfair to even say they were negligent or made an error in judgement.
Fuck police for criminals not being in perfect health I guess. They might as well all just give up if they have to play doctor instead of cop every time a suspect claims they're being killed. If they're qualified to play doctor it pays better anyway.
If I ever die of a heart attack with a cop on my neck, everyone has my permission to blame cheeseburgers.
Unfortunately it was their job to possibly be a causative factor in his death. Getting that job done puts them in a position where that's always a risk. That's why there's the public perception that cops are all vindictive raciscts eager to kill all the good little choir-boys who of course did nothing to require police intervention. Correlation is not causation. Anyway the witnesses and body cams will sort everything out. Aside from the official timeline we've yet to see any bodycam or hear the officer or bystanders full account...
8:08 p.m. – A clerk at Cup Foods called 911 to report that a man bought merchandise at the store using a counterfeit $20 bill. Officers Thomas Lane and J. Alexander Kueng arrive at the store and locate Floyd in a nearby vehicle with two other people.
As he is speaking with Floyd, Lane pulls his gun out, points it at Floyd through Floyd’s open window and orders him to show his hands. When Floyd puts his hands on the steering wheel, Lane puts his gun back in the holster.
The officers eventually order Floyd him of the vehicle and handcuff him, despite some resistance. After being handcuffed, Floyd becomes compliant. The officers sit him down on the sidewalk and talk with him for two minutes, during which they ask if he is “on anything” and explain that he is being arrested.
8:14 p.m. – Kueng and Lane attempt to walk Floyd to their squad car, but Floyd stiffened up, fell to the ground and told the officers he was claustrophobic. Chauvin and Thoa arrive in a separate squad car.
The officers make several attempts to get Floyd into the squad car, but he struggles with officers. While standing outside the car, Floyd begins saying and repeating that he cannot breathe. Chauvin tries to get Floyd into the squad car with help from Lane and Kueng.
8:19 p.m. – Chauvin pulls Floyd out of the squad car. Floyd goes to the ground face down and still handcuffed. Kueng holds his back and Lane holds his legs. Chauvin presses his knee onto Floyds neck. Floyd repeats, “I can’t breathe.”
At one point, Lane asks, “Should we roll him on his side?” and Chauvin says no. Lane says he is worried about “excited delirium” Chauvin responds, “that’s why we have him on his stomach." None of the three officers moved from their positions.
8:24 p.m. – Body camera video shows Floyd stop moving.
8:25 p.m. – Body camera video appears to show Floyd ceasing to breathe or speak. Kueng checked Floyd’s pulse and says he cannot find one. None of the officers moved from their positions.
8:27 p.m. – Chauvin removes his knee from Floyd’s neck. An ambulance and paramedics arrives and the officers place Floyd on a gurney.
9:25 p.m. – Floyd was pronounced dead at the Hennepin County Medical Center, according to the medical examiner’s report.
I take that into account. Other people don't sadly. That doesn't mean they did their job amazingly either. People also have good days and bad days.
Single perspectives are a problem. An EMT would look at the situation completely differently without having a concept of the law enforcement aspect. Someone in the background took that angle.
I reject the notion that he shouldn't have been restrained in the first place.
If he said he couldn't breath while standing up and not being restrained that's a new detail.
I thought it was two people restraining but three. I still hold that their restraint could have been done better and ended up being excessive. I don't know if I would support firing or bringing up charges for that but it's something you would expect there to be some admonishment at least.
You don't want cops under restraining either though. You want to improve their judgement.
Most aspects of a situation are mundane. Not going lightly on the restraint was most likely purely because he was an unusually big man and well built.
There's a difference between condemnation and criticism. Between 24 and 27 is when they make the only serious mistake. It's incompetent enough it's easy to imagine it's deliberate though I don't think it is. It is in the moment. Three minutes isn't a long time or a short time in the context. It's borderline.
Excited delirium (and adrenaline burst / shock) is a real thing but I think they were being over cautious about it. It's really just people spazzing out, losing it, it happens. For the state attributed to drugs I don't entirely know but that state doesn't require drugs. The state he was in wasn't that far gone.
You can look at other cases of people being restrained believed to have that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEF7yrMXoJI
Lots of ED videos have people having to go all in. They seem to have done that for Floyd but he wasn't in that state or at that extreme so what you have is being somewhat premature. You also see in retrain videos people doing it the way I say it should be done but one difference. They put their weight on the left leg and have the right over the body which makes a lot more sense.
Chauvin looks even more physically awkward and untrained when going by comparisons.
They were right to worry about excited delirium. The four cops literally tried and failed to force him (while handcuffed) into the vehicle for several minutes and had to eventually give up and force him down in the gutter. He essentially overpowered all four of them. The had every indication that they might still lose control of him again if they let up.
They were right to be worried about it but they could also have read the situation better and done better. If you're worried about ED then you can do better. This is where single mindedness can be a problem all around. If you want to see signs of ED then you'll find them.
If you only have one thing on your mind you won't do a good job. You have to have on your mind ED, not ED and anything else that might happen such as heart attack from OD.
I've seen at least some brief clips and I would have read the situation a bit differently. However their misread isn't entirely unfounded. It's not like they didn't have cause to think something.
If you watch the clips he doesn't appear at any point to indicate any violent intent but he was using his physique to not cooperate. There's a brief moment he just falls to the floor so overpowered them is a bit misleading if in that respect. It was a gravity assist but it looks to me like it caught some of the officers a bit off guard when he sat down suddenly like that.
When he's on the floor the officer says will he get in the car and Floyd submits says he will but the officer does nothing. That was just dumb. He was calm and coherent enough from the video that you would not call that ED.
Another thing to consider is that the people antagonising the cops may have given some distraction preventing them from being able to deal with Floyd more attentively. They might have been right that the means of restraint wasn't optimal and that they should have stopped restraining him so heavily like that when he was unresponsive but they were also adding additional threat.
Once they pile on him beside the car they've already called the ambulance and are done fooling around with trying to take him into custody. Doesn't matter after that if he becomes willing to "cooperate" or get in the car. From then on their main concern is not letting him complicate things further. What if they let up on him and then they end up having to mace, taze, or shoot him later?
Also we know now that he was high on both fentanyl which kills people through cardio-pulmonary depression, and meth which which can make them hyper and irrational. A dangerous cocktail. It looks to me other than the initial struggles, Chauvin had most of his weight if not all on his back leg, not the neck, and early on his knee was partly on Floyd's jaw. The coroners even taking the video evidence into account with their reports is BS. Since there was no neck trauma, their assumption the knee played any part among the many possibilities that triggered his heart attack is no better than anyone else's. It certainly didn't play any part in Floyd's apparent problems prior to their final takedown.
Then there's the basic but unpopular premise that "if you can say you can't breathe, you can breathe". The three cops on Floyd weren't preventing his breathing enough to kill him without a lot of help from drugs or a heart attack. They may not have done the optimum thing for a man in Floyd's condition, but I think it may be unfair to even say they were negligent or made an error in judgement.
Fuck police for criminals not being in perfect health I guess. They might as well all just give up if they have to play doctor instead of cop every time a suspect claims they're being killed. If they're qualified to play doctor it pays better anyway.
If I ever die of a heart attack with a cop on my neck, everyone has my permission to blame cheeseburgers.