Spez - I have some homework to do on homicide, murder, manslaughter... a lot of things. I appreciate the comments. I want to do my best to say the right things. Still learning, folks. Won't stop.
While we can all agree the cops actions where egregious, they'll have a hell of of a time convicting him of murder. They be forced to introduce lesser charges down the road which is allowed in Minnesota. The nuances of their laws as written are murky at best leaving a lot of room for interpretation. It's even tougher with the conflicting autopsies. Tell a jury of people that aren't always the smartest people that it was murder, no matter how the laws are written they might view it as an intention taking of someones life. Add that he's an officer on duty called to the scene likely dealing with an incoherent/uncooperative person. It's a mess in a courtroom. We don't convict/lynch people because we believe he murdered the man any longer.
It can still be manslaughter even Murder 2 might be considered now there is proof that George was having a heart attack while in Custody and the Cops refused to render aid.
Hell that might doom the guy, the knee on the neck was not killed him. It was the heart attack caused by the stress of the situation. The 'I cant breathe' is indicative of the man having a massive coronary heart attack. The pressure on the neck on the main artery just accelerated his death. The cops did nothing and I mean NOTHING to render aid. Once he said that' I cant breathe' the officer should have stopped putting his knee on his neck, flipped him over and tried to render some form of aid. there's 4 cops... One of them could have had their taser out as defense of the other cop. A EMT should have been dispatched, but there wasnt...until he was dead. Meaning these cops willfully let the man die in their custody.
This isnt the first time a Cop did this, everyone forgets about what happen to Kelly Thomas in Orange County when 4 coups beat up, tazed and murdered a mentally ill patient...all the while screams for "I want my father" was curdling out of the man's breath until his life was extinguished. That cop got off even though it was clear negligence and homicide.
His inevitable defense that his department allowed that maneuver is completely overshadowed by the pleading for help and concerned citizens repeatedly telling him that he doesn't look good and should check his pulse. That fucker kept holding, and that's why he should be in prison.
I can guarantee you that he will claim that he kept his knee on him because he was still resisting, but the video evidence does not bear that out. He kept his knee there long after the man had ceased all sound and movement. He's not going to be able to avoid a manslaughter conviction.
Yeah, but from the video, Third Degree Murder is the right charge.
Murder 1 = Knowingly take an action that killed someone with intent to kill and premeditation
Murder 2 = Knowingly take an action that killed someone with intent to kill but not premeditation
Murder 3 = Knowingly take an action that killed someone without intent to kill
Manslaughter = Take an action that killed someone without intent but without trying to prevent harm, e.g. negligence
These cops knew what they were doing and the man was telling them he was in distress and they continued what they were doing anyway. They didn't intend to kill him, but it wasn't simple negligence and it wasn't an accident.
Maybe, maybe not. Enough fentanyl use alone will kill you, heart condition or not. Some people just seem to pass out and stop breathing (opiates depress the respiratory drive so that people slow or stop breathing). Usually narcan brings them back if they haven't been out too long, although it wears off and it may take several rounds of narcan to keep them alive.
Patients who come in with a high load of meth or cocaine, usually don't need narcan depending on the balance of the dosages they took and when they took each one. Meth can act on a person's system for several days.
I've had patients come in with some meth still in their system who had recently did (smoked/ingested/injected) a large amounts of opiates. They didn't need narcan initially, but some did later on and a few of them ended up being intubated to keep them alive.
Do enough fentanyl and someone will be dead before the fire department/EMS can get there. If Floyd had been doing fentanyl and had some meth/coke in his system its possible that killed him. I would have to see video of when they initially arrested him and what his mental state/awareness was at that point and how it progressed to say whether it was probable.
If Floyd was initially very out of it and slow to respond, it would fit with fentanyl being a factor, especially if he was only responding when he was in pain from the officers efforts against him (He would be a P on the AVPU scale). If Floyd was belligerent and animated the entire time up until his collapse, then I'd say the timing of it would be far too coincidental to be the decline of one drug while the other did him in.
The adrenaline surge of being arrested and struggling with the police would have temporarily boosted his respiratory drive and helped overcome a certain amount of the fentanyl's effects. When this wore off, his breathing rate could plummet and just stop. His level of opiate tolerance would affect a lot of this as well - if he had a high level of opiate tolerance, it wouldn't affect him as much, but when it was enough to affect him, it would impact his breathing significantly.
I am not saying this is a likely explanation. It is difficult to tell how a given patient will progress over time, even when you have them in front of you on the monitor, with labs and urine tests. A few are frequent patients that we see again and again and again - and we have a good idea how they will progress, usually. We ask how much and what they took and adjust accordingly. Even then, some of those patients can surprise us.
If this were a non arrest subject, or someone who had given them zero resistance and they weren't responding, the police would have called for medics. Seeing as they had spent so much time trying to get him to stop resisting, a few minutes of him being still wouldn't register as something being wrong, so much as it would mean they had finally stopped struggling.
It could still be murder. Assuming it is from the video evidence alone is enough to call for a trial, but not enough to convict, and the evidence may point the other way towards being not guilty as well.
Heart rate and rhythm under Meth use could be responsible as well. If they have a decent cardiac rhythm, no real cardiac issues and heart rate is 120 or under, it usually settles down with some fluids. If they are hitting above 135 and staying there for very long, the chances of a dangerous rhythm or heart attack go up.
A fair point, but the failure to render aid when the guy was clearly requesting it could amount of manslaughter still.
I know loads of criminals try the "I can't breath" or "it hurts too much" shit when they get arrested, but as a cop you've got a duty to determine whether they're actually in trouble or not. This dude was clearly non-responsive for several minutes, and no one went "Uh hey bro you still breathing?" It never even occurred to them to check on the status of the person they were detaining. That's criminal negligence if I ever saw it.
Cops are trained to enforce laws, not make medical evaluations. They'd already called for the ambulance, so their job was only to keep the suspect under control until medical professionals arrived.
It's easy to say they should have checked on him, but keep in mind that they were surrounded by hostile civilians shouting antagonistic information at them.
I've been in vaguely similar situations, and you basically shut out all extraneous information and focus on executing your established plan of action (however flawed in retrospect it may be).
So yeah, they fucked up (probably due to poor training), but it wasn't exactly gross negligence and it must probably was not intentional.
When you play stupid games, not just once, but habitually without serious negative consequences and purposeful introspection, the chances of certain outcomes grows exponentially and is to be expected by anyone with a normal functioning brain and a little bit of time on this planet.
The reality is George Floyd was a felon who chose to break the law again either knowingly, or unknowingly, and then proceeded to resist arrest with a very dangerous and often times fatal drug(fentanyl) in his system. I’m sorry if the truth hurts, but he is the one who chose to lower the value of his life by his continued bad actions. Contrary to popular belief, not all men are created equal, and that gap widens as people chose to make bad decisions and commit crime without learning from their mistakes. 🤷🏼♂️
Disclaimer: Don’t waste your time bringing up the cop. I won’t defend him and believe he probably deserves everything coming to him if new evidence isnt released to show otherwise.
You can't just say "HERE'S ALL THE BAD THINGS ABOUT THE DEAD GUY" and then - *Disclaimer - don't talk about the cop that killed him. Okay CNN. And - yes, ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, BY GOD.
We're TALKING about the bad cop. Weather or not the guy was good or bad, he was done. Not resisting anymore. And the guy sat on his neck, while on his stomach for 8 minutes. THAT'S ALL.
🤣 I refuse to identify with either one of the pieces of shit. GF or Chauvin. Assholes collided and shitty things happened. I could care a less about either. I have no need for dindus or LEOs in my life. Sorry. 🤷🏼♂️ Once again, play stupid games win stupid prizes.
You could "care a less about either" though - even if you don't know how to use the term. You said "I would like to see him found innocent and made chief of police"
So you did care.
What are you even doing on this site? People do drugs. It's awful. They don't deserve to die. "Assholes collided and shitty things happened." Nope. If that's the case, then nothing should happen if someone puts you in cuffs and sits on your neck when you don't respond.
I support the fuck out of our police. AND I STILL DO AND WILL. This one specific guy (I won't call him a cop) killed someone and it didn't need to happen. You feel the need to say that they are both in the wrong, fuck it?
Yeah but - still murdered.
Fair point. Yeah but - still homicided.
Spez - I have some homework to do on homicide, murder, manslaughter... a lot of things. I appreciate the comments. I want to do my best to say the right things. Still learning, folks. Won't stop.
While we can all agree the cops actions where egregious, they'll have a hell of of a time convicting him of murder. They be forced to introduce lesser charges down the road which is allowed in Minnesota. The nuances of their laws as written are murky at best leaving a lot of room for interpretation. It's even tougher with the conflicting autopsies. Tell a jury of people that aren't always the smartest people that it was murder, no matter how the laws are written they might view it as an intention taking of someones life. Add that he's an officer on duty called to the scene likely dealing with an incoherent/uncooperative person. It's a mess in a courtroom. We don't convict/lynch people because we believe he murdered the man any longer.
It can still be manslaughter even Murder 2 might be considered now there is proof that George was having a heart attack while in Custody and the Cops refused to render aid.
Hell that might doom the guy, the knee on the neck was not killed him. It was the heart attack caused by the stress of the situation. The 'I cant breathe' is indicative of the man having a massive coronary heart attack. The pressure on the neck on the main artery just accelerated his death. The cops did nothing and I mean NOTHING to render aid. Once he said that' I cant breathe' the officer should have stopped putting his knee on his neck, flipped him over and tried to render some form of aid. there's 4 cops... One of them could have had their taser out as defense of the other cop. A EMT should have been dispatched, but there wasnt...until he was dead. Meaning these cops willfully let the man die in their custody.
This isnt the first time a Cop did this, everyone forgets about what happen to Kelly Thomas in Orange County when 4 coups beat up, tazed and murdered a mentally ill patient...all the while screams for "I want my father" was curdling out of the man's breath until his life was extinguished. That cop got off even though it was clear negligence and homicide.
If there's truth to the talk about them knowing each other, then murder would certainly be on the table.
He'll likely face a manslaughter charge and will also likely be convicted. They won't risk trying for a murder charge.
I disagree, I work in law enforcement and the restraint methods/duration used were ridiculous.
His inevitable defense that his department allowed that maneuver is completely overshadowed by the pleading for help and concerned citizens repeatedly telling him that he doesn't look good and should check his pulse. That fucker kept holding, and that's why he should be in prison.
Wrong.
I can guarantee you that he will claim that he kept his knee on him because he was still resisting, but the video evidence does not bear that out. He kept his knee there long after the man had ceased all sound and movement. He's not going to be able to avoid a manslaughter conviction.
Yeah, but from the video, Third Degree Murder is the right charge.
Murder 1 = Knowingly take an action that killed someone with intent to kill and premeditation
Murder 2 = Knowingly take an action that killed someone with intent to kill but not premeditation
Murder 3 = Knowingly take an action that killed someone without intent to kill
Manslaughter = Take an action that killed someone without intent but without trying to prevent harm, e.g. negligence
These cops knew what they were doing and the man was telling them he was in distress and they continued what they were doing anyway. They didn't intend to kill him, but it wasn't simple negligence and it wasn't an accident.
MICHAEL BADEN, THE SAME MEDICAL EXAMINER WHO DID EPSTEIN, JFK, MLK AND MICHAEL BROWN
is behind the second "independent" autopsy.
Spread it like wildfire pedes!
He's the one who said it was homocide
Maybe, maybe not. Enough fentanyl use alone will kill you, heart condition or not. Some people just seem to pass out and stop breathing (opiates depress the respiratory drive so that people slow or stop breathing). Usually narcan brings them back if they haven't been out too long, although it wears off and it may take several rounds of narcan to keep them alive.
Patients who come in with a high load of meth or cocaine, usually don't need narcan depending on the balance of the dosages they took and when they took each one. Meth can act on a person's system for several days.
I've had patients come in with some meth still in their system who had recently did (smoked/ingested/injected) a large amounts of opiates. They didn't need narcan initially, but some did later on and a few of them ended up being intubated to keep them alive.
Do enough fentanyl and someone will be dead before the fire department/EMS can get there. If Floyd had been doing fentanyl and had some meth/coke in his system its possible that killed him. I would have to see video of when they initially arrested him and what his mental state/awareness was at that point and how it progressed to say whether it was probable.
If Floyd was initially very out of it and slow to respond, it would fit with fentanyl being a factor, especially if he was only responding when he was in pain from the officers efforts against him (He would be a P on the AVPU scale). If Floyd was belligerent and animated the entire time up until his collapse, then I'd say the timing of it would be far too coincidental to be the decline of one drug while the other did him in.
The adrenaline surge of being arrested and struggling with the police would have temporarily boosted his respiratory drive and helped overcome a certain amount of the fentanyl's effects. When this wore off, his breathing rate could plummet and just stop. His level of opiate tolerance would affect a lot of this as well - if he had a high level of opiate tolerance, it wouldn't affect him as much, but when it was enough to affect him, it would impact his breathing significantly.
I am not saying this is a likely explanation. It is difficult to tell how a given patient will progress over time, even when you have them in front of you on the monitor, with labs and urine tests. A few are frequent patients that we see again and again and again - and we have a good idea how they will progress, usually. We ask how much and what they took and adjust accordingly. Even then, some of those patients can surprise us.
If this were a non arrest subject, or someone who had given them zero resistance and they weren't responding, the police would have called for medics. Seeing as they had spent so much time trying to get him to stop resisting, a few minutes of him being still wouldn't register as something being wrong, so much as it would mean they had finally stopped struggling.
It could still be murder. Assuming it is from the video evidence alone is enough to call for a trial, but not enough to convict, and the evidence may point the other way towards being not guilty as well.
And that is reasonable doubt that the cop killed him.
Heart rate and rhythm under Meth use could be responsible as well. If they have a decent cardiac rhythm, no real cardiac issues and heart rate is 120 or under, it usually settles down with some fluids. If they are hitting above 135 and staying there for very long, the chances of a dangerous rhythm or heart attack go up.
A fair point, but the failure to render aid when the guy was clearly requesting it could amount of manslaughter still.
I know loads of criminals try the "I can't breath" or "it hurts too much" shit when they get arrested, but as a cop you've got a duty to determine whether they're actually in trouble or not. This dude was clearly non-responsive for several minutes, and no one went "Uh hey bro you still breathing?" It never even occurred to them to check on the status of the person they were detaining. That's criminal negligence if I ever saw it.
Cops are trained to enforce laws, not make medical evaluations. They'd already called for the ambulance, so their job was only to keep the suspect under control until medical professionals arrived.
It's easy to say they should have checked on him, but keep in mind that they were surrounded by hostile civilians shouting antagonistic information at them.
I've been in vaguely similar situations, and you basically shut out all extraneous information and focus on executing your established plan of action (however flawed in retrospect it may be).
So yeah, they fucked up (probably due to poor training), but it wasn't exactly gross negligence and it must probably was not intentional.
Recent meth use and he had cardiac arrest. Interesting .
When you play stupid games, not just once, but habitually without serious negative consequences and purposeful introspection, the chances of certain outcomes grows exponentially and is to be expected by anyone with a normal functioning brain and a little bit of time on this planet.
The reality is George Floyd was a felon who chose to break the law again either knowingly, or unknowingly, and then proceeded to resist arrest with a very dangerous and often times fatal drug(fentanyl) in his system. I’m sorry if the truth hurts, but he is the one who chose to lower the value of his life by his continued bad actions. Contrary to popular belief, not all men are created equal, and that gap widens as people chose to make bad decisions and commit crime without learning from their mistakes. 🤷🏼♂️
Disclaimer: Don’t waste your time bringing up the cop. I won’t defend him and believe he probably deserves everything coming to him if new evidence isnt released to show otherwise.
You can't just say "HERE'S ALL THE BAD THINGS ABOUT THE DEAD GUY" and then - *Disclaimer - don't talk about the cop that killed him. Okay CNN. And - yes, ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, BY GOD.
We're TALKING about the bad cop. Weather or not the guy was good or bad, he was done. Not resisting anymore. And the guy sat on his neck, while on his stomach for 8 minutes. THAT'S ALL.
🤣 I refuse to identify with either one of the pieces of shit. GF or Chauvin. Assholes collided and shitty things happened. I could care a less about either. I have no need for dindus or LEOs in my life. Sorry. 🤷🏼♂️ Once again, play stupid games win stupid prizes.
Okey, you dont care that a bad guy is dead, thats okay. But you should care that police killed him in the way they did.
Jesus.
You could "care a less about either" though - even if you don't know how to use the term. You said "I would like to see him found innocent and made chief of police"
So you did care.
What are you even doing on this site? People do drugs. It's awful. They don't deserve to die. "Assholes collided and shitty things happened." Nope. If that's the case, then nothing should happen if someone puts you in cuffs and sits on your neck when you don't respond.
I support the fuck out of our police. AND I STILL DO AND WILL. This one specific guy (I won't call him a cop) killed someone and it didn't need to happen. You feel the need to say that they are both in the wrong, fuck it?