Definitely not murder because he didn't mean to kill him. The proof of that is that he followed the procedure that he's been taught.
Knee on the back of the neck should not make breathing more difficult. Ironically what you suggested, putting the knee on the back, does prevent breathing.
Laying on the stomach is also the best position for breathing, in fact that's how hospitals put the Chinese virus patients who can't breathe. Most people don't know, but the lungs are more in the back than in the front.
Still, we know, absolutely, that it's not normal for police officers to kneel on the back of people's necks, because if that was normal then just about all of them would have broken peoples’ necks.
The proof of that is that he followed the procedure that he's been taught.
Do you have any sources of him "following protocol" or "followed the procedure that he's been taught"?
That report is just describing the circumstances. It's not the result of an autopsy.
It also mentions "restraint" and that normally doesn't kill people.
Following protocol: the source was just posted by another pede in response to my comment above.
Credit it's his, I'll just relink it here for your convenience
Still, we know, absolutely, that it's not normal for police officers to kneel on the back of people's necks, because if that was normal then just about all of them would have broken peoples’ necks.
That report is just describing the circumstances. It's not the result of an autopsy. It also mentions "restraint" and that normally doesn't kill people.
"Just describing the circumstances". Why would they specifically mention "neck compression" as a *"complication reg. the cause of death"?
And in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6F62EdX_yg , George Floyd specifically mentions "Please, the knee in my neck, I can't breathe shit.", around 0:20 . Shouldn't protocol demand of Chauvin that he should take special care and consideration and ensure that the suspect resisting arrest can breath and is not dying?
Thank you for the source, though I have to skim through it to find the sources it uses, it is not itself a proper source. It seems to be this file here: https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/sites/default/files/Documents/PoliceCommission/minneapolis%20ced%20policy.pdf (I assume that source is trustworthy, though I wouldn't know, it is also from something like "sanfranciscopolice.org"... why would the police of San Francisco have that file? And why would they use the top-level domain '.org'???). And from that file, I am not at all convinced that Chauvin did indeed follow protocol. Page 7 seems to be the relevant part. What is your argument that Chauvin is indeed following the protocol as described on page 7 and elsewhere? Especially reg. Chauvin continuing to use the neck restraint even after George Floyd stopped moving and talking? And without even checking up on whether he was conscious or breathing? Not changing the restraint? Or any other of a large number of actions? Again, there were 4 or more officers. And when George Floyd says things like:
"Please, the knee in my neck, I can't breathe shit."
Isn't that an absolutely obvious cue that special care is needed, especially when Floyd stops moving and talking? Does the protocol require police officers to monitor and check subjects that are restrained whether they are breathing, conscious or possibly dying? Or any other related actions, especially when they have stopped moving and talking while under neck restraint?
I think all your points are answered by the article I linked.
Let me tell you from personal experience: if you can't breathe, you can't talk. Surely not as loud as Floyd does in the video.
Obviously the cop doesn't let him go because they judged that they need to keep him restraint for their own safety.
Neck compression just means there was pressure on his neck. If you look at the details of the autopsy, there was no bruising of neck muscles, so obviously there wasn’t much pressure exerted at all.
Minneapolis PD guidelines also stated that neck restraints using your leg are legal. They only disallowed chokeholds.
Neck compression just means there was pressure on his neck. If you look at the details of the autopsy, there was no bruising of neck muscles, so obviously there wasn’t much pressure exerted at all.
But isn't it significant that it is directly mentioned as a complication reg. the cause of death?
Minneapolis PD guidelines also stated that neck restraints using your leg are legal. They only disallowed chokeholds.
If you have a source reg. that, I would appreciate it if you would post it. The only source I have really seen reg. that is from a medium post (which is copy-pasted on a blog post on a website called amren.com which has been linked elsewhere in the comments here): https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/sites/default/files/Documents/PoliceCommission/minneapolis%20ced%20policy.pdf .The link points to a document on a website supposedly for the San Francisco police department, despite its TLD being .org. I don't know whether that document is fake or not, though I would very much appreciate if you happen to know a better source than that.
It also says the cause of death was the arrest. If he died due to a heart attack from the drugs, his poor health, and the stress of being arrested, then it can both be true that pressure on the neck contributed to his death and that it wasn’t the primary factor.
I mean you could say the arrest caused his death, because if the cop just let him go he might have lived, but that’s not fair imo, and neither is saying the kneeling did it. I would feel differently if his neck was damaged or if he died of asphyxiation.
If you have a source reg. that, I would appreciate it if you would post it. The only source I have really seen reg. that is from a medium post
Sure thing. I actually looked it up immediately when the event happened because I was curious whether what he was doing was standard practice or not (since everyone kept saying it was so horrible)
Hmm, their site seems to be down for whatever reason, but here is an old comment of mine where I quote what was in it. You can check the link there and see if their site is working by the time you read this.
Definitely not murder because he didn't mean to kill him. The proof of that is that he followed the procedure that he's been taught.
Knee on the back of the neck should not make breathing more difficult. Ironically what you suggested, putting the knee on the back, does prevent breathing. Laying on the stomach is also the best position for breathing, in fact that's how hospitals put the Chinese virus patients who can't breathe. Most people don't know, but the lungs are more in the back than in the front.
Then why does the report (as per https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf ) describe the cause of death as follows? (emphasis mine):
They directly name neck compression as a complication reg. the cause of death.
See also the answer by "Paul Harding" in https://www.quora.com/Why-do-police-put-their-knee-on-the-back-of-your-neck-when-cuffing-you . While that is not a proper source, he does write the following:
Do you have any sources of him "following protocol" or "followed the procedure that he's been taught"?
That report is just describing the circumstances. It's not the result of an autopsy. It also mentions "restraint" and that normally doesn't kill people.
Following protocol: the source was just posted by another pede in response to my comment above.
Credit it's his, I'll just relink it here for your convenience
https://www.amren.com/news/2020/06/why-derek-chauvin-may-get-off-his-murder-charge/
You don't comment on the part I wrote reg. "Paul Harding" in https://www.quora.com/Why-do-police-put-their-knee-on-the-back-of-your-neck-when-cuffing-you , again:
"Just describing the circumstances". Why would they specifically mention "neck compression" as a *"complication reg. the cause of death"?
And in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6F62EdX_yg , George Floyd specifically mentions "Please, the knee in my neck, I can't breathe shit.", around 0:20 . Shouldn't protocol demand of Chauvin that he should take special care and consideration and ensure that the suspect resisting arrest can breath and is not dying?
Thank you for the source, though I have to skim through it to find the sources it uses, it is not itself a proper source. It seems to be this file here: https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/sites/default/files/Documents/PoliceCommission/minneapolis%20ced%20policy.pdf (I assume that source is trustworthy, though I wouldn't know, it is also from something like "sanfranciscopolice.org"... why would the police of San Francisco have that file? And why would they use the top-level domain '.org'???). And from that file, I am not at all convinced that Chauvin did indeed follow protocol. Page 7 seems to be the relevant part. What is your argument that Chauvin is indeed following the protocol as described on page 7 and elsewhere? Especially reg. Chauvin continuing to use the neck restraint even after George Floyd stopped moving and talking? And without even checking up on whether he was conscious or breathing? Not changing the restraint? Or any other of a large number of actions? Again, there were 4 or more officers. And when George Floyd says things like:
Isn't that an absolutely obvious cue that special care is needed, especially when Floyd stops moving and talking? Does the protocol require police officers to monitor and check subjects that are restrained whether they are breathing, conscious or possibly dying? Or any other related actions, especially when they have stopped moving and talking while under neck restraint?
I think all your points are answered by the article I linked.
Let me tell you from personal experience: if you can't breathe, you can't talk. Surely not as loud as Floyd does in the video. Obviously the cop doesn't let him go because they judged that they need to keep him restraint for their own safety.
there are different amounts of pressure. It didnt seem like Chauvin had all that much pressure on floyd, but I cant really tell.
Neck compression just means there was pressure on his neck. If you look at the details of the autopsy, there was no bruising of neck muscles, so obviously there wasn’t much pressure exerted at all.
Minneapolis PD guidelines also stated that neck restraints using your leg are legal. They only disallowed chokeholds.
But isn't it significant that it is directly mentioned as a complication reg. the cause of death?
If you have a source reg. that, I would appreciate it if you would post it. The only source I have really seen reg. that is from a medium post (which is copy-pasted on a blog post on a website called amren.com which has been linked elsewhere in the comments here): https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/sites/default/files/Documents/PoliceCommission/minneapolis%20ced%20policy.pdf .The link points to a document on a website supposedly for the San Francisco police department, despite its TLD being .org. I don't know whether that document is fake or not, though I would very much appreciate if you happen to know a better source than that.
It also says the cause of death was the arrest. If he died due to a heart attack from the drugs, his poor health, and the stress of being arrested, then it can both be true that pressure on the neck contributed to his death and that it wasn’t the primary factor.
I mean you could say the arrest caused his death, because if the cop just let him go he might have lived, but that’s not fair imo, and neither is saying the kneeling did it. I would feel differently if his neck was damaged or if he died of asphyxiation.
Sure thing. I actually looked it up immediately when the event happened because I was curious whether what he was doing was standard practice or not (since everyone kept saying it was so horrible)
Hmm, their site seems to be down for whatever reason, but here is an old comment of mine where I quote what was in it. You can check the link there and see if their site is working by the time you read this.
https://thedonald.win/p/FgCXhCJo/x/c/12hRCBBrsq