I’ve lived in the South my entire life and I’ve never cared for it. I prefer the American flag. But, I don’t think the government can or should outlaw any symbol in America. Honestly, I’ve seen more of them flying since they started the ban talk than I ever saw as a kid.
just to be clear - while these are real buttons, they were probably not official clinton-gore merch. The campaign claims they didnt use them or distribute them and it doesnt have the Union Bug labor symbol on it (thought that isnt proof). Anyway, it is just sad people are so offended at a flag.
And then Hillary Clinton carpet bagged and munched her way to New York and was elected to the Senate with a pledge to keep abortion legal and convenient. And about one half of black children in the big city have been aborted every year since.
the "problematic" flag you are referring to is not the actual official flag of the confederate states but rather the "rebel" battle flag
the union invaded the south so this was the flag flown by individuals who were defending their state from a federal invasion. we need to honor and respect those soldiers they fought valiantly and in many cases more honorably than the north. the soldiers of the confederacy were not inherently bad people and the overwhelming majority (90%+) were not even slave owners.
the union also had slave states, the war was about "preserving the union" and had very little to do, if anything, with slavery.
many Indian tribes joined the confederacy including a few prominent generals.
learn more about the civil war it's not as cut and dry as you've been taught. it's a nuanced issue that is not just "the south wanted slavery so they started a war" as you've likely been taught. in fact, that sentence is almost 100% incorrect.
almost no slaves were harmed during the confederacy. in fact one of their last hail mary plans was to free and arm the slaves as a means to protect their sovereign state rights.
i'm not gung-ho pro confederacy but to act like they were 100% wrong is just completely incorrect and likely a product of a lack of research on the subject. they thought they had a right to secede legally and the war was essentially fought over that specific right.
I'm so sick of Marxist history that rewrites reality and strawmans the circumstances behind the war.
'White man is the root of all evil and is to blame for all your problems!', is now the common doctrine, it's no wonder that we're in the midst of entering another civil war meanwhile racial tension is on a high.
It is so cultural Marxism. It was taught semi-okay when I was growing up but still unfortunately got the PC gloss-over. Luckily one of my best friends at the time was an uber military nerd and his dad was like a wacky libertarian sci-fi author. So I have been aware of this bias and slant since I was pretty young.
The whole "evil white man" narrative doesn't even pass muster b/c obviously whites were involved in the eventual freeing of the slaves. In all honesty, in a way what kind of offends me is that Civil War history isn't even black history at all, it only had an effect on black history. Just like one wouldn't say that WW2 is a part of North or South Korean history per se.
I think of my own relative from PA who fought at Gettysburg and can't help but wonder if he had cousins, friends, etc. who fought on the other side. Also, I refuse to accept that had my great-great-great whatever lived 50 miles to the south that he was some kind of monster.
lol fucking lost cause apologist gung-ho pro-confederacy liar
explain how the "battle flag" wound up being the the second national flag of the Confederate States of America? go ahead I want to hear how it's only a part of that flag no the whole thing. Go ahead confederate liar, explain it\
the south attacked the north you fucking liar. fort sumter bitch.
"almost no slaves were harmed during the confederacy" yeah ok that's a good one im just fucking rolling on the floor with this one how can some fucking idiot say that with a straight face jesus fucking christ
the south were evil bitches and they got what they deserved i wish we had a dozen shermans not just one fuck those guys
i can't imagine what you get out of holding on to this incredibly glib and biased opinion of a very complex issue.
sure, everyone south of the arbitrary line was satan and everyone north of it was an angel. if that's what you want to believe, more power to you. i ultimately support the cause of the north, but to pretend like their hands are 100% clean and the south was 100% in the wrong with every move they made is just not correct IMO. saying "lol yer a fukin liar" is not a rebuttal either. everything i said in my post is true.
show me evidence the south were harming their own slaves more during the war. how does that hold up to logic? they are fighting a war 100% for slavery so they turn around and hurt and kill their slaves during said war? makes no sense. also, there were proposals to arm and free the slaves to save the confederate states that were ultimately rejected not out of principle but out of practicality. so, yes there is historic documentation that by 1863 the confederates were seriously considering abandoning slavery to save their union of sovereign states. do you seriously not know about the other reasons (taxes, tariffs, creeping federal control) that put the south and north at conflict and lead to secession? you just come across as angry and ignorant and either way it's not like this issue has had any direct effect on your life so... why u mad bro? because we have a difference of opinion and perspective on a complex historical issue from 160 years ago? that's the real LOL to me.
oh please it's only a complex historical issue to people who want to obfuscate the issue
everything you wrote in your post was true
ok guy
you said the "the "problematic" flag you are referring to is not the actual official flag of the confederate states"
so how is it that The Stainless Banner, which was the official national flag of the Confederacy from 1963 to 1965 was nothing but the Battle Flag on a white background? is that the hill you're going make your argument on? that the Stainless Banner DOESN'T LOOK 100% PERCENT like the Battle Flag? even though the Battle Flag is the main component and pretty much the only thing visible at a distance?
i mean go ahead, i dare you to make that argument - say they're so different that they're not the same thing at all then i'll know for sure you're just splitting hairs
who gives a shit if the battle flag was the national flag or what flag anyway. it was plastered all over the Confederacy and everyone knows who it belongs to.
another way i know you're a southern apologist bootlicker is you say stupid stuff like the North invaded the South. it is a 100% fact that the South started military operations first. what the fuck are you supposed to do with people who bombard your forts and take your soldiers prisoners, oh let's NOT invade? you'd make a really shitty war leader if you're like oh no we'll be the bad guys if we invade the one's who started shooting.
Indians? The slave-owning Indian savages joined the Confederacy? What a fucking surprise amirite?
lastly, "show me evidence the south were harming their own slaves more during the war."?? wtf? "so they turn around and hurt and kill their slaves during said war?" i think you're mental. no one said anything about them hurting or killing their slaves EXTRA during the war, just you know, the regular amount like when they were whipping and flaying them and hanging them from the trees or having them eaten by dogs or raping them in the usual fashion.
The south seceded first, so, kind of a moot point. The people in power said, fuck you, we got all this slave money and we make all the rules so we're out niggas, and then they left. The union said, naaahhhh bitch, you can't bring all the freedom loving americans out of america just cause you got all the political power. "We were meant to live for so much moreeeee, and we(you) lost ourselves".. That being said, we're invading and making sure America stays great!
All the generals of the south said "i never knew another reason for the war besides slavery", all the southern legislatures drafted that THE REASON FOR SECEDING WAS SLAVERY.. google it man. Didn't know that the union had slaves.. looking that up now.. actually, I can't find it. Do you have a source? This is actually a really great argument if it is true..
Yeah, i know, it's kindof funny how many people on the left don't know that. So funny.
I've learned a lot. And I'm from a southern and northern family, it seems like this is correct. and i'm not looking at stupid leftist research. I can spot that shit from a mile away.
Hmm, also a good point. Do you have a source? I'm not doubting you, I'm lazy as fuck. Hence the command "change my mind"
Yeah, but their reason that they did was because of slavery according to all the research I've done. Look up the articles of secession from the Mississippi legislative body at the time... I'm sure there are historical non-leftist videos on it, I've watched them and looked it all up afterward, it checks out.
And yeah, I can tell. No one agrees with their idea that slavery was cool. Just trying to have an actual discussion here. Thank you.
emancipation proclamation didn't free union (and territory) slaves, nor did it free the slaves of the individual Indian tribes. slavery is perhaps the primary motivator for the disagreement b/w feds and what ultimately unified the southern states but the actual reason for rebellion/secession is what the southern states saw as creeping federal govt powers. this included northern tariffs and taxes that were incredibly unfair and tilted towards the wealthy industrialists who were still more than willing to profit off of slave labor. the south seceded for independence of their individual states i.e. state sovereignty. it's a very american concept quite frankly. they were rebelling (peacefully at first and how they would've liked it) because of taxes and freedom to control their own state laws.
you have to think of the entire picture of a) what the country looked like, b) the impending expansion of the country from texas statehood, the Mex-Amer war and LA purchase territories to really get the big picture.
yes, the south seceded and yes if you had to pick one "reason" you can make an argument that it is slavery. however, the real reason is state sovereignty and the south believed they had the legal right to secede. you have to remember that the states formed the union to begin with and at least theoretically have the ability to dissolve or withdraw from said union. this is a complicated issue that has since been more thoroughly litigated but at the time and especially in the period leading up to the CW it was a much more hotly contested issue and almost nobody was in agreement.
Because you're not the final authority on an intangible symbol's meaning.
Because to the victor goes the spoils. And demonizing the south was, and continues to be, one of the spoils.
Meaning if the shoe were on the other foot, the Confederate flag (different variant than this one) would have been the national flag for some Americans. Atrocities committed by the Union may have been taught in history more regularly. For example, they don't teach in school that Lincoln illegally jailed Journalists who spoke against him. Therefore, the union flag could have just as easily become a symbol of fascism and authoritarianism to some.
Because if the South won, and people still raised the Union flag, you would need to ask the individual what it meant to them before ostracizing them.
Because, today, our schools still demonize the south without asking them how they feel. While it is true the pre-civil war south desired autonomy to write their own laws about slavery, and slavery was the final straw that caused the states to succeed from the union - the war was fought to keep the union together. It was not fought to end slavery. Pinning the entire conflict on this single item, wrapping it up in a symbol, is the height of arrogance and self-righteousness.
Because most of the South were not slave owners and less than 4% of all Africans captured were sold in North America. 96% of the tragedy could have easily been pinned on the rest of the world and made them to feel guilty.
Racism didn't magically disappear at the border. Northerners were proponents of slavery as well, but families did not work in agriculture, and their lives did not depend on it. In other words, the North would have been for slavery had agriculture been a big part of their economy. The south was effectively told "okay, all you who have become dependent on this system, are now going to go broke. Tell your wife and kids to pack it up." If the North was given this ultimatum, they would have succeeded as well.
Because it's easy to look back arrogantly at history, not being in the midst of it, and pretend you are holier than thou. Today, our tech companies rape us, data mine our grandchildren's private conversations , and advocate for the blackmailing you with your words, and steal from our wallets through the hidden-hand of inflation , and usher in 24/7 media propaganda so we hate ourselves. The North and The South and the West and the East are so far okay with this.
Because one day, in 100 years, somebody with your mindset, will spit on your photograph for sitting idly by while the above is happening today and you are doing probably nothing to protect your grandchildren from it happening to them.
After all these years, I still can't believe anybody "redpilled" still believes everything their high school history book taught them about this stuff.
We should make a Biden 2020 flag like this and spread it around
😂 x 💯
Or just “Biden/A Black 2020” - gets the point across just as easily.
Seems reasonable.
I’ve lived in the South my entire life and I’ve never cared for it. I prefer the American flag. But, I don’t think the government can or should outlaw any symbol in America. Honestly, I’ve seen more of them flying since they started the ban talk than I ever saw as a kid.
I grew up in the south and always saw it as a symbol of rebellious and southern pride, never about slavery or white supremacy.
Just the good ole boys, never meaning no harm...
Same.....it was always a middle finger to the north and most of my black friends either wore it or had it on cars.
The same year that Alien 3 came out. Coincidence?
lol
But but but.....the democrats and republicans switched sides!!!!
just to be clear - while these are real buttons, they were probably not official clinton-gore merch. The campaign claims they didnt use them or distribute them and it doesnt have the Union Bug labor symbol on it (thought that isnt proof). Anyway, it is just sad people are so offended at a flag.
And then Hillary Clinton carpet bagged and munched her way to New York and was elected to the Senate with a pledge to keep abortion legal and convenient. And about one half of black children in the big city have been aborted every year since.
BLACK LIVES MATTER, INDEED
For real tho, The Confederate flag is an Anti-American(as an idea fucking obviously) symbol. Change my mind.
things to consider:
i'm not gung-ho pro confederacy but to act like they were 100% wrong is just completely incorrect and likely a product of a lack of research on the subject. they thought they had a right to secede legally and the war was essentially fought over that specific right.
I'm so sick of Marxist history that rewrites reality and strawmans the circumstances behind the war.
'White man is the root of all evil and is to blame for all your problems!', is now the common doctrine, it's no wonder that we're in the midst of entering another civil war meanwhile racial tension is on a high.
Fuck these liars, thieves and murderers.
Fuck communists
It is so cultural Marxism. It was taught semi-okay when I was growing up but still unfortunately got the PC gloss-over. Luckily one of my best friends at the time was an uber military nerd and his dad was like a wacky libertarian sci-fi author. So I have been aware of this bias and slant since I was pretty young.
The whole "evil white man" narrative doesn't even pass muster b/c obviously whites were involved in the eventual freeing of the slaves. In all honesty, in a way what kind of offends me is that Civil War history isn't even black history at all, it only had an effect on black history. Just like one wouldn't say that WW2 is a part of North or South Korean history per se.
I think of my own relative from PA who fought at Gettysburg and can't help but wonder if he had cousins, friends, etc. who fought on the other side. Also, I refuse to accept that had my great-great-great whatever lived 50 miles to the south that he was some kind of monster.
It's just all so damn glib.
lol fucking lost cause apologist gung-ho pro-confederacy liar
explain how the "battle flag" wound up being the the second national flag of the Confederate States of America? go ahead I want to hear how it's only a part of that flag no the whole thing. Go ahead confederate liar, explain it\
the south attacked the north you fucking liar. fort sumter bitch.
"almost no slaves were harmed during the confederacy" yeah ok that's a good one im just fucking rolling on the floor with this one how can some fucking idiot say that with a straight face jesus fucking christ
the south were evil bitches and they got what they deserved i wish we had a dozen shermans not just one fuck those guys
i can't imagine what you get out of holding on to this incredibly glib and biased opinion of a very complex issue.
sure, everyone south of the arbitrary line was satan and everyone north of it was an angel. if that's what you want to believe, more power to you. i ultimately support the cause of the north, but to pretend like their hands are 100% clean and the south was 100% in the wrong with every move they made is just not correct IMO. saying "lol yer a fukin liar" is not a rebuttal either. everything i said in my post is true.
show me evidence the south were harming their own slaves more during the war. how does that hold up to logic? they are fighting a war 100% for slavery so they turn around and hurt and kill their slaves during said war? makes no sense. also, there were proposals to arm and free the slaves to save the confederate states that were ultimately rejected not out of principle but out of practicality. so, yes there is historic documentation that by 1863 the confederates were seriously considering abandoning slavery to save their union of sovereign states. do you seriously not know about the other reasons (taxes, tariffs, creeping federal control) that put the south and north at conflict and lead to secession? you just come across as angry and ignorant and either way it's not like this issue has had any direct effect on your life so... why u mad bro? because we have a difference of opinion and perspective on a complex historical issue from 160 years ago? that's the real LOL to me.
oh please it's only a complex historical issue to people who want to obfuscate the issue
everything you wrote in your post was true
ok guy
you said the "the "problematic" flag you are referring to is not the actual official flag of the confederate states"
so how is it that The Stainless Banner, which was the official national flag of the Confederacy from 1963 to 1965 was nothing but the Battle Flag on a white background? is that the hill you're going make your argument on? that the Stainless Banner DOESN'T LOOK 100% PERCENT like the Battle Flag? even though the Battle Flag is the main component and pretty much the only thing visible at a distance?
i mean go ahead, i dare you to make that argument - say they're so different that they're not the same thing at all then i'll know for sure you're just splitting hairs
who gives a shit if the battle flag was the national flag or what flag anyway. it was plastered all over the Confederacy and everyone knows who it belongs to.
another way i know you're a southern apologist bootlicker is you say stupid stuff like the North invaded the South. it is a 100% fact that the South started military operations first. what the fuck are you supposed to do with people who bombard your forts and take your soldiers prisoners, oh let's NOT invade? you'd make a really shitty war leader if you're like oh no we'll be the bad guys if we invade the one's who started shooting.
Indians? The slave-owning Indian savages joined the Confederacy? What a fucking surprise amirite?
lastly, "show me evidence the south were harming their own slaves more during the war."?? wtf? "so they turn around and hurt and kill their slaves during said war?" i think you're mental. no one said anything about them hurting or killing their slaves EXTRA during the war, just you know, the regular amount like when they were whipping and flaying them and hanging them from the trees or having them eaten by dogs or raping them in the usual fashion.
Yeah, but their reason that they did was because of slavery according to all the research I've done. Look up the articles of secession from the Mississippi legislative body at the time... I'm sure there are historical non-leftist videos on it, I've watched them and looked it all up afterward, it checks out.
And yeah, I can tell. No one agrees with their idea that slavery was cool. Just trying to have an actual discussion here. Thank you.
non-confed slave states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_states_%28American_Civil_War%29
arming the slaves proposal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judah_P._Benjamin#Secretary_of_War
emancipation proclamation didn't free union (and territory) slaves, nor did it free the slaves of the individual Indian tribes. slavery is perhaps the primary motivator for the disagreement b/w feds and what ultimately unified the southern states but the actual reason for rebellion/secession is what the southern states saw as creeping federal govt powers. this included northern tariffs and taxes that were incredibly unfair and tilted towards the wealthy industrialists who were still more than willing to profit off of slave labor. the south seceded for independence of their individual states i.e. state sovereignty. it's a very american concept quite frankly. they were rebelling (peacefully at first and how they would've liked it) because of taxes and freedom to control their own state laws.
you have to think of the entire picture of a) what the country looked like, b) the impending expansion of the country from texas statehood, the Mex-Amer war and LA purchase territories to really get the big picture.
yes, the south seceded and yes if you had to pick one "reason" you can make an argument that it is slavery. however, the real reason is state sovereignty and the south believed they had the legal right to secede. you have to remember that the states formed the union to begin with and at least theoretically have the ability to dissolve or withdraw from said union. this is a complicated issue that has since been more thoroughly litigated but at the time and especially in the period leading up to the CW it was a much more hotly contested issue and almost nobody was in agreement.
Because you're not the final authority on an intangible symbol's meaning.
Because to the victor goes the spoils. And demonizing the south was, and continues to be, one of the spoils.
Meaning if the shoe were on the other foot, the Confederate flag (different variant than this one) would have been the national flag for some Americans. Atrocities committed by the Union may have been taught in history more regularly. For example, they don't teach in school that Lincoln illegally jailed Journalists who spoke against him. Therefore, the union flag could have just as easily become a symbol of fascism and authoritarianism to some.
Because if the South won, and people still raised the Union flag, you would need to ask the individual what it meant to them before ostracizing them.
Because, today, our schools still demonize the south without asking them how they feel. While it is true the pre-civil war south desired autonomy to write their own laws about slavery, and slavery was the final straw that caused the states to succeed from the union - the war was fought to keep the union together. It was not fought to end slavery. Pinning the entire conflict on this single item, wrapping it up in a symbol, is the height of arrogance and self-righteousness.
Because most of the South were not slave owners and less than 4% of all Africans captured were sold in North America. 96% of the tragedy could have easily been pinned on the rest of the world and made them to feel guilty.
Racism didn't magically disappear at the border. Northerners were proponents of slavery as well, but families did not work in agriculture, and their lives did not depend on it. In other words, the North would have been for slavery had agriculture been a big part of their economy. The south was effectively told "okay, all you who have become dependent on this system, are now going to go broke. Tell your wife and kids to pack it up." If the North was given this ultimatum, they would have succeeded as well.
Because it's easy to look back arrogantly at history, not being in the midst of it, and pretend you are holier than thou. Today, our tech companies rape us, data mine our grandchildren's private conversations , and advocate for the blackmailing you with your words, and steal from our wallets through the hidden-hand of inflation , and usher in 24/7 media propaganda so we hate ourselves. The North and The South and the West and the East are so far okay with this.
Because one day, in 100 years, somebody with your mindset, will spit on your photograph for sitting idly by while the above is happening today and you are doing probably nothing to protect your grandchildren from it happening to them.
Extremely well said.
After all these years, I still can't believe anybody "redpilled" still believes everything their high school history book taught them about this stuff.