white people are too good at making music, we need affirmative action in orchestras!
(media.patriots.win)
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The slow death of meritocracy continues.
Meh, it's been a slow death for decades now, it's only been accelerated recently.
Think back to the 90s when they banned dodgeball and other competitive sports from gym class. We can't have athletic kids make nonathletic kids feel bad about their lack of ability. Might as well ban it for everyone. This was also right around the time when participation trophies were awarded to every child for simply showing up, and they stopped 'officially' keeping score at children's sporting events so no ones feelings would get hurt.
It's been a long, steady decline for a long time now.
I know many many classical musicians. The blind audition process is there to help allow the BEST of the BEST get in. There’s even a carpet down so judges can’t hear high-heels and get biased against women.
What the fuck!!
A black friend won the 1st chair in one of the best orchestras around and it was a huge fucking deal. Won it bc he’s the best. Ain’t got shit to do w complexion.
Talent. Merit. Hard fucking work. True American Dream.
Years ago, this policy was instituted as a way to protect women and minorities from bias. Now we are told we must get rid of them to protect women and minorities???
Clown World, dude. Clown World.
Nobwe get rid of them in order to allow discrimination again because these people have decided discriminating against whites and men is preferable to equality
this is 100% correct. My how the tables have turned.
It’s because it’s not about protecting minorities anymore. It’s about replacing White people.
Aren't Asians over represented in classical music as well? They'll probably go the Ivy League route and limit them as well.
In Australia they tried to fight sexism by taking the names off job applications and found that disparity actually increased so they stopped doing that
Not women...
Word. Not to mention it's still a second or third job if you're not with one of the biggest orchestras.
There should be a blind audition for just about everything.
First chair beatbox.
Probably paranoia speaking but you might want to get rid of the parenthetical portion. Could figure it the identity or at least narrow it down by finding which of the best orchestras have only one black first chair.
Can confirm. 80's kid, 90's teen. We used to smuggle footballs in our backpacks. Watching the principal sperg out when she found out the name of the game we were playing was "smear the queer" was priceless. Especially since we were so young none of us knew what queer meant lol. I thought it meant kick returner untill I was 9.
Now that's a name I haven't heard in decades, that and fag tag. I don't remember much about either game in school except that nobody I know took those games seriously or had any genuine deep-seated feelings about sexual preference (we were kids after all).
As for the names themselves, we only liked them because adults didn't want us using those words.
Remember this one? - " I do so know what a queer is! You just don't know and you want me to tell you! No way QUEER!!!!" I once called my friend Josh a lesbian masterbation, I had no clue what it meant. The teacher laughed his ass off
lol I played smear the queer in school. I remembered it a few years ago and asked if anyone else remembers it and so many people got pissed off at me thinking it was some kind of backwater deep south thing children of klansmen did. Nope, southern California in the early 90s.
LOVED PLAYING THAT!!!
Man as a teenager I'm so glad I went to a k-12 private catholic school, nobody there banned my class from "picking teams" or hitting kids in the heads with dodgeballs, I see so many public schools indulging in the liberal "fairness" BS that's been poisoning our society.
Catholic Schools are probably the last major educational institution that isn't completely corrupted by leftists. Despite the stupid stuff that the current pope focuses on, Catholics have been teaching under the same fundamental principles for thousands of years.
BTW you don't necessarily have to be Catholic to go to them. You just have to be respectful of the fact that it is a Catholic school, so you cannot make a fuss about the fact that your kids are going to be taught under a system guided by Catholic theology.
And the nuns would smack us around when we misbehaved. Good times!
And stopped using red pens to grade school work because it's traumatizing and hurts their feelings.
Shit.
For real?
For real. Hell, I'm in California. My wife and I are having a gender reveal today for our baby (due in February). People here are leaving shitty comments on my wife's Facebook. "How dare you try to pick your child's gender, Reeeeeee reeeeeeeee Reeeeeee! Honestly my wife has always been redpilled. She was a pede before me, but now she is full blown Augusto Pinochet fire up the helicopters mode. When she said that none of these freaks is allowed to talk to our child because they will try to give her the mind virus I was so proud.
Yup. Sister in law is a turbo lib in LA. Taught her kids how great the lgbtbbq people are very young. Of her three daughters one is now a trans man, one is an asexual lesbian, one is a non binary pan gender
your wife have an unmarried sister?...lol
Sorry bro, only one like her. Her sisters are Hillary worshippers with tranny kids 🤮
"My wife and I are having a gender reveal today for our baby (12 in February)"
Kidding, kidding.
You won the marriage lottery
Congrats!
I highly recommend women from the deep south. If she knows REAL football is played on Saturday, and she can recite her biscuits and gravy recipe by heart, you're good to go.
It’S a SeX ReVeAl
That sounds like what happens at the end of a tinder date with a liberal woman. Fingers crossed, "no Weiner, no Weiner, no weiner, ahhhhh damnit... Big floppy Weiner."
I've had students ask not to grade in red pen because it's demoralizing
But purple ink is any better?! I got an F but it at least it ain’t RED!
This is leftist logic in action
https://time.com/31960/school-bans-teachers-from-using-red-ink-because-its-too-mean/
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/send-the-right-message-ab_b_9100560
And this is how we get to helicopter mothers calling workplaces to see if there is a cake planned at the office for their daughter and interceding in employee performance evaluations. Yes, it's real.
honk honk
Yep. My wife's a school teacher. It's a real thing.
I guess I was right before all that because I was in school the entire 90s and we still had all of that. I am abysmally horrible at sports and many years I hated gym class and I still wouldn't want it banned. I always felt the good gym teachers had a wide enough set of activities in their back pocket to level the playing field a bit anyway.
I hated gym class too, especially dodge ball. It really reveals which sporty kids are total jerks and like to bean someone as hard as they can for no reason. I used to just cheat and sit down before I was actually out so they'd quite hitting me as hard as they could. If you're really feeling stealthy, you can hit people while sitting, since you're not technically out. I figure I was just introducing snipers to dodge ball.
I hear at least some schools now give you PE credits for other activities. Some got credits for ballet (which involves 4-6 hours of class per week), some others could do a mountain biking group with their school. I was born too soon, I guess.
Quick for you, I imagine it's been slow for people that have been yelling about communists infiltrating our culture since the 30s.
Seriously. The pace has gone from about level 3 to level 11 in a few months.
we should do the same for pilots, medical staff, architects, scientists, etc. Why slowly emulate Idiocracity when we can leap directly into it.
Well, it would be a lot faster, but they didn't put their best people on the job.
Yeah, I am sorely disappointing in the NBAs lack of diversity.
I mean, where are all the 6ft and under white guys who can't shoot? They deserve a chance too!
2%? is it really that low?
2% of the population, 50% of the political donations
That seems suspicious tbh. To have such a small group controlling so much of our political destiny.
Crazy!
No more than 13% blacks on any given team. Minimum of 5% Asian.
New NBA team: the Manhattan Jewish Accountants. If you don't like it you are a bigot.
And they'll need to start every game being 70 points ahead, just so it'll be fair. Equality for all!
https://images.app.goo.gl/AzvpyrQCTud7HPFo8
Who will buy the tickets?
The aclu
Only if they vote for Biden.
I want an aboriginal midget transsexual in a wheelchair as the point guard of the Chicago Bulls.
Now do jazz.
There's been 1 white corner back in the NFL in the past 30 or so years that I know of. And he (Jason Seahorn) retired 18 years ago.
Also, how about the lack of white RBs? McCaffery, Danny Woodhead, Rex Burkhead, and Zach Zenner are the only ones i can think of over the past 10 years. Teams carry 3 RBs most times (32 teams)...What "diversity" eh?
The mediocre fear the meritocracy
Is it any wonder they wish to destroy it?
Saliari is their patron saint!
I don't consider myself exceptional by any stretch, but I'm reasonable enough to understand that extraordinary talents carry the world on their shoulders, and we would all suffer without them. The people that don't want to hear this are extremely bitter types who would rather see others languish in failure just like them.
And the rise of racism.
Lol this whole thing is basically revealing that "colored people create shitty music and therefore never get accepted as composers in color-blind auditions".
So apparently, hiring people based on skills, competency and talent means that minorities never end up getting the job. In ANY job type except basketball players. LOL.
So now leftists want "diversity hiring" to be implemented, meaning racist, discriminatory hiring based on the color-group of the skin instead of the music they compose or the skills they have.
🤡🌍
I hate leftists and their moronic expectation of completely equal outcome in life no matter how unskilled and how little effort someone puts in.
They already have equal opportunity and it just reveals that they aren't good enough to compete in a meritocracy. So now they want equal outcome to be enforced by draconian, racist laws instead... Sick.
They havr their own music culture. And it's permeating mainstream popular music.
What exactly do they want with orchestras? They're not frequenting city symphonies
They know that there is a massive difference in quality between great orchestral performances and their ol stanky, booty shaking jungle music and it makes them resentful.
Hahaha so according to them white cultural items (white culture simultaneously exists and doesn't exist) perpetuates white supremacy and enjoying it is a sign of white supremacy and racism. So they want to appropriate white cultural items rather than dismantle this system of "white supremacy" and use their own culture?
Every single basic white leftist girl loves "queen B." Not one of those white girls loves their city's symphony.
Orchestras are not exactly mainstream and the general populace probably does not frequent shows. On the other hand, Beyonce amd Cardi B and the most recent mini beyonce (whoever does that awful savage song) are mainstream. Both of those "artists" make 10x what the first chair violinist makes im a city orchestra
And despite the commercial success they still have a problem because they know in their bones that whatever vapid twerkin bullshit is popular now still falls far, far below the heights of "white" culture. Their culture is weak, sickly, and reactive. It is Slave Culture to go with their adopted Slave Morality.
Ever wonder why eloquent blacks don't jive with the booty shakin baby momma music?
Nope i never wonder because it's painfully obvious lmao
Plus twerking during an audition for a symphony is just awkward.
I once saw a team of black ballerinas twerking and attempting hip hop en pointe. It was amusing for a few seconds, but it was like all they did. Then I started to notice how it reminded me of a weird creature from a horror game.
Hahaha I love the twist ending of your message. Did not see that coming.
It boggles the mind how the people demanding this are so oblivious to their own racism, and so are the people (or drones) that actually support this.
Yep, they want equal outcome, NOT equal opportunity.
Yep they already have equal opportunity and it shows that they aren't good enough. So now they want equal outcome via draconian, racist laws.
According to Smithsonian, that is part of problematic white culture. BIGOT
https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness?fbclid=IwAR3QwJ5AvKw5XbcZj2SxIE8YOgI44707PcfN4cYHQx8wOPMEJmAttnhyuxk
Gross.
They were forced to take down that picture about "aspects of whiteness" because they got dragged for how racist it is, lol. But they left the rest of the whiteness page up.
Also, whenever you click a facebook link, it puts that "?fbclid=blahblah" business on the end, and that can be safely deleted.
Turns out only hiring people based on their skills doesn't result in a mix of skin colors that matches the statistics of the larger society.
But who cares? Interesting that no one is pointing out how people of Asian descent are "over represented" if what you're after is a ratio identical to the number present in society. Nor do they ever complain about "black people" being over represented in other specific genres of music.
So, is there some secret genetic link between skin color, hair texture, and facial structure and one's ability to pour thousands of hours of your life into practicing an orchestral instrument?
Or is it maybe something to do with whether or not parents encourage children to listen to classical music and instill a love and enjoyment in playing such an instrument?
If we need more black representation in classical music, then we need more diversity in the NBA.
It’s not about skill, talent or ability. We need accurate representation.
60% of the NBA should be Caucasian.
Except diversity = no wypipo
Calm down satan
And porn.
Midgets are under lots of things in general.
As are paraplegics
Yeah NBA is on target for the end goal of 100% diversity
ok, more asians then. That 7 foot tall guy and the Harvard economics guy did ok.
Asians are worse than whites, because they reenforce the oppressive meritocracy!
Little people are drastically unrepresented in the NBA
“2% of the population” are trans. Where is the representation?
At my local Wal-Mart as a greeter.
We don't, because that would be cultural appropriation.
I was gonna say the same: that blacks are appropriating my culture!
And I actively listen to classical too!
In all seriousness, I do not care who is playing that divine music, but that equality of opportunity and meritocracy are both honored through blind auditions.
When I watch Your Lie In April, do I care that the musical score is played by Japanese?
I care how well the music is played by talented men and women.
Hell, Chopin's Ballade No.1 in G Minor, Op.23 arranged by Masaru Yokoyama and played by Yuna Shinohara is the best version that I have ever been blessed to hear.
To play classical music was understood by Pythagorus of Samos, later Croton and Johann Sebastian Bach to be holy...
...So to destroy classical music in this manner is to desecrate the Sacred.
And of course, the entire problem is that the proverbial they don't care about the quality of the music. They only care about forcing each and every aspect of society to conform to their skewed political worldview.
Lol that’s probably the best example for showing how all their “it’s about demographics/communities!” is all bullshit anti-white rhetoric.
Because if it truly was about demographics or the community (which of course is stupid for its own reasons) their logic would essentially make the Utah Jazz an all white team. Regardless if you do it proportionally for state demographics, or for just the actual people who watch and attend games. Almost all are white. Maybe you’d get 1 black guy in the team depending on the balance between raw demographics vs fans who watch.
But they wouldn’t do that. Thus proving it is solely anti-white garbage they spew.
Need more white rappers too and afro-Cuban Latin musicians as well. Not diverse enough.
What's hilarious about that, is I always thought Eminem was one of the good rappers because he had something to say (even if I don't agree with a lot of it anymore), vs mainstream black rappers where it's just all about aggression and selling drugs and fucking bitches.
And the SJW's are already on the case with "If you don't like rap but you like Eminem then block me now you gross racist."
Genetics. People need to grow the fuck up and accept that the biological substratum matters—more than the rest. We are not born blank slates—that is ridiculous Flat-earth level bullshit requiring incredible amounts of willful ignorance—and all the parental encouragement and supportive environment in the world can only take you so far before you hit the wall of innate potential and disposition.
We already live in a time where we live, more or less, to our genetic potential (phenotypic maxima) more than any other time in human history. Everyone goes to school and has god-like access to essentially infinite knowledge at their fingertips. Food is abundant and security, from a historical perspective, is pretty much as high as it has ever become
And yet... the shrieking gender studies majors would have you believe the opposite..
I’m starting to wonder whether all this nonsense is because of too much security. The average folk have too much time on their hands since they don’t have to spend time defending themselves or just surviving. This is time spent yearning for some philosophical ideal. So when you don’t believe in God, I think this is the end result
So you think any random pale-skinned kid living in a trailer park with an alcoholic single-mother where he's only ever exposed to old rock and hip-hop music has a better chance of growing up to play orchestral violin than a dark skinned girl who's the third child of a well-paid Judge and a College professor that take her out to see the symphony, operas, and plays on a regular basis?
Both genetics and environmental factors make a difference in an individual's life, but acting like genetics are primarily determinative is just as much a lame excuse for losers to stay losers as "systemic racism" is. Ability to play an instrument well is a factor of how much you practice and what access to quality training and equipment you have. Which style of music you prefer is a function of individual tastes born of familiarity, exposure, and societal pressures and fads.
Exceptions do not make the rule.
What he just described isn't an exception. It's called "nature vs. nurture."
No they don't. They disprove the rule.
Men are generally stronger than women. The fact that some of the strongest women are stronger than some of the weakest men doesn't undermine the overall trend.
And the overall trend doesn't mean squat to a weak man or a strong woman.
But certain weak men cling to the trend as though other men's strength has anything to do with them.
But society is defined by the average, not by the strongest or weakest exceptions. That's why Africa is still a hell-hole or why highly populated muslim areas even in first world countries are so regressive and ghetto-ish.
I think one could argue that each individual has a genetic limit on intelligence and athletics. Why wouldn't you also believe there are genetic limits to musical talent?
Not any one instrument, but musical talent in general.
Maybe the trailer park kid turns out to be Eminem.
Just because he doesn't play the violin doesn't mean he doesn't have musical talent.
I never said anything about generic "musical talent" because there's no such thing. The article is about the Orchestra specifically. My point is that which genre an individual chooses to perform is unrelated to how well they play.
"Talent" is a false concept that people who haven't put thousands of hours of effort into something use to excuse themselves from not being as good as the person who put in more work. It's the same as someone who doesn't study saying the kid that's spending four hours every night studying is "just smart".
Besides, what is or isn't "good music" is purely a matter of personal taste. An untrained person's enjoyment of music has almost nothing to do with how technically difficult performing that music is. The vast majority of performers in an orchestra spend most of the time playing very simple parts that aren't challenging at all.
The whole "but genetics" argument is an excuse. You don't even need 10 fully formed fingers to play a lot of orchestral parts. Most people don't simply because they just don't want to, and there's nothing wrong with that. Dragging any concept of race or genetics into it is asinine.
“The vast majority of performers.... simple parts that aren’t challenging at all.”
Lol. You have no idea what you are talking about. Only people who cannot play music would ever say something that stupid. Every piece of music is challenging if you are paying attention. The quest for perfection is the drive and frustration for all of us orchestral musicians.
Only a person who's not very good at any instrument would say "every piece is challenging". Obviously you've never seen a French Horn score that's literally just the same pitch whole note for the entire song.
If you don't know that some passages are more difficult to perform well then others, you haven't spent very long learning your instrument.
I would counter that "Only a person who has no depth in their musical skill..." would not recognize that it's probably more difficult to play a same pitch whole note through an entire song... and maintain the pitch and consistency perfectly
You can't hide your playing if you only have one note
Lol. You called it a song. Fail.
Playing one single note on the French horn IS difficult. Playing that note beautifully, in tune, in time, correct volume, correct timbre, etc. without fatigue and perfect each time is what separates those who can from those who cannot.
Of course some pieces are more difficult but that doesn’t mean that you can take a mental vacation on some pieces.
So, what happens when 2 people put in the exact same amount of time and effort and 1 person is better than the other? What would you say makes one person better than the other?
What about when one person puts in far less time and is still better than someone who puts in more time? Are you saying that does not happen?
Are you saying everyone is a blank slate and there are no differences in any of us at all?
If you're 6 feet tall and have long arms, are you going to have an easier time playing the stand up base than a 4 foot tall person? Or the trombone?
What about if you're taller and have a larger lung capacity. You're saying someone small with a smaller lung capacity will be able to hold the notes just as long?
To say that our differences mean nothing is dismissive. Just like when you look at physical sports (football, MMA, etc) your genes make a difference.
I also am skeptical that you think everyone has the exact same intelligence level. There are many well documented IQ research experiments that suggest otherwise. This is tangential to musical talent because site reading is often involved and if your brain is slower, you will be slower to site read and likely make more mistakes.
You've started with an imaginary situation, and then asked me to explain it to you. You're the one who made it up, I don't have to defend it. I'm saying there's no such thing. Find me two people that are perfectly identical in time and effort in reality and I'll analyze the difference critically. Otherwise, it's an irrelevant hypothetical.
Then you put words in my mouth regarding the vague concept of "intelligence". Playing violin takes a certain level of intellectual effort sure, but lets not pretend it's the same as nuclear physics or something. Honestly, the intellectual work in college is often what forces otherwise musically capable people out of college music programs. There's very little relationship between ability to play an instrument and ability to recall the date ranges during which specific composers lived.
Also, if you're actively sight reading an orchestral piece on performance day, then you clearly haven't practiced as much as the next guy. Besides, music isn't like chemistry. Ability to perfectly follow instructions is less important than imparting emotional content in your interpretation. Only non-musicians think getting all the notes perfectly the same as written is the important part. The "soul" of music is all about the deviations. Holding a note just a touch longer, playing it just a touch sharp or flat, playing accelerando, adding a light trill or vibrato...
Otherwise we wouldn't need any musicians or directors. We could just type it all into a computer and let it run.
Ok, so you recognize that people do have different intelligence levels and by that count, I'm also assuming you conceded to my argument about how physical differences makes playing certain instruments easier or harder. Great.
I'd also guess you conceded to my point that some people are just naturally better after practicing less.
I don't disagree with you that practice beats talent 100% if the time that talent doesn't practice. It's true for anything but there is such a thing as talent. Some people naturally have perfect pitch (doesn't mean you can't learn it, you're just behind that person). Some people naturally can hold a temps (doesn't mean you can't learn it. It just means you're behind that person). Some people naturally have fingers that stretch further so they can naturally play harder base lines or piano pieces (doesn't mean you can figure out a way to do it, it's just easier for them. They're ahead of you) It's easier for these people. That means it takes less practice for them than it would for you. If they're just as dedicated as you, they win every time.
So now, I would like to address your comment about how some musicians know how to make some pieces more emotional. You then go on to say that the soul of music is all about deviation. And that we need people to direct the orchestra.
So my question to you is, do you think some people just have a knack for figuring out the deviations that are needed to make the most impact in music? If yes, follow up question, If they have a knack for it from the beginning and they are dedicated to their craft, does that not mean they would win in a competition with someone who did not have a knack for it.
There are only so many hours in the day. Talent matters. It gives you an edge. That edge is important in the .1% of talent. It can set you apart.
And it has very little to do with race.
Yes but music is also a cultural expression and has an origin, traditional history and performance discipline. Classical music is "white" music regardless of who plays it. My only beef is that they feel entitled to it while telling whites that listening to rap is appropriating black culture. It only ever flows in one direction with the left.
"White" is a term racists use to either erase or lay claim to thousands of individual cultures.
What culture does a German from the late 1700s to early 1800s (Beethoven) have in common with a Russian born 100 years later (Rachmaninoff), or an Italian composer born 100 years earlier (Caldara)?
For that matter, who has more "culture" in common, a white orchestral violin player from an upper middle class family and a white rapper from the trailer park, or that same violin player and a black violin player from a similar socio-economic background?
There is no hard tie between culture and skin color. It's just ridiculous to say that all Irish, Italian, Russian, Polish, Armenian, German, Swedish, Australian, and Canadian people share a culture. Much less to say that they all have equal claim to the individual musical expressions of people with no relation to them that lived hundreds of years ago in countries thousands of miles away from their own just because of some vague physical similarity.
Ah, but those European composers DO share a culture, a musical one. It may not be Whiteness, but it is definitely musical. What does Beethoven have to do with Rachmaninov? LOL, everything. Beethoven affected all music written after him.
There is a definite, undeniable, lineage of shared musical culture that weaves its way from the earliest known music to the music of today. What is usually considered the best and highest form of music is a derivative of European culture. There certainly have been composers of other races, but they have jumped on this European musical culture train to express their ideas.
You're just espousing opinions as fact. What's considered the "best" music by the most pale-skinned people is crap like Justin Bieber.
To say that all music from the majority of the entire continent of Europe over the course of several hundred years represents a singular culture is just a very pompous, faux-intellectual way of saying "all white people are the same".
Many notable composers of orchestral music never heard Beethoven. It wasn't like today when a single artist can easily be heard by the entire world. Many works have had to be altered from their original forms because different areas and eras didn't even use the same temperament much less the same instrumentation and layout. Modern orchestral music has been homogenized for convenience giving the false impression of greater similarity than actually existed in the original works.
We're talking about thousands of disparate groups that didn't speak the same languages, practice the same religions, and were often at war with one another. To call all of that one "European culture" erases history and cultures rather than preserves them.
Name ONE notable composer of orchestral music after Beethoven who had never heard of him. You can’t.
Its not ridiculous to say European heritage or Western heritage nor is skin color the determining factor of racial and ethnic distinctions. You seem to have a naive view of heritage and culture which is not consistent with conventional views.
Conventional views are exactly the problem. If the topic is history then modern reinterpretation doesn't actually change the past no matter how many people you get to agree to it. You can't just toss the individual cultures of people that didn't even speak the same language into a blender and say it's all the same just because they kind of have a vaguely similar skin tone.
Most of the people you're wrapping together under the blanket of "European heritage" were at various points in history literally killing each other over cultural differences. A significant portion of the earliest European settlers in North America came here specifically because they were being persecuted in their homelands over cultural differences.
Even under the European Union, no one in Europe would seriously make the argument that there's no cultural difference between the many different European nations. Ignoring that reality in favor of some mythical "white culture" is the practice of race baiting academicians that have more interest in denigrating anyone with pale skin than in actually understanding the intricacies of history and culture..
Anyone who's ever played an instrument or a sport has been told that talent is not enough.
Hard work, practice AND talent is what makes greatness.
A talented person who never practices won't be great. And a person who has 0 talent and works hard might be mediocre but not great. A person of average talent and above average work ethic will probably be great. An extremely talented person with below-average work ethic will probably be good
THIS.
This exactly.
This applies to literally everything in life. You're lucky if you're talented. You're lucky if you have a high work ethic. And if you're really, really lucky, you have both.
Define talent without using ephemeral concepts.
One's natural ability and potential
Both of those are ephemeral concepts. There is no way to objectively quantify either in an empirical way.
Okay if you want to argue people do not have innate talent or ability i duno what to tell you.
Two kids can put in the same practice hours and have identical practice regimens but they're probably not going to have the same caliber of skill. Anyone who's played an instrument recognizes this
It’s not just about practice and training. I’m a professional classical musician and I can assure you that the number of people who make a career in this field is very small compared to the people who didn’t make it. In college, we all had great equipment, access to the same teachers, and put in hours of work with rare exceptions.
The reality is that some people are just better at it than others despite effort. For me, I was good from the start and music just made sense. I worked extremely hard and I continued my work because I was seeing progress. Some people chip away at it for hours and years and NEVER get better. They pour their lives into it with nothing to show for it.
There are exceptions of course in terms of race. Most orchestras are mainly White with many Asians and very few Blacks. The auditions are blind because we need the best sounding people. No one cares what category they fall in. When you have to play with people, it’s what they bring to the table that matters. There’s nothing worse than playing with someone who can’t play in tune or has terrible rhythm. All it takes is one weak player to make an orchestra suffer, especially a wind player.
I believe it's a mistake for you to assume that all the people who didn't make it tried as hard as you do. Personally I find the very concept insulting. I feel no need to pretend that I tried just as hard at playing sports as the people who are good at it. I feel no need to spare the feelings of those who HAVEN'T worked as hard as I on something by allowing them to claim that my abilities are the result of winning some specious genetic lottery rather than as the result of me just working harder to get good at it than they did.
You can't compare someone who spends all of their free time living and breathing their instrument to someone who simply spends the same amount of time in the practice room or at rehearsal but doesn't give it a second thought outside of that time.
I have never met someone who was better than me at anything that they didn't also clearly try harder at. I'm comfortable admitting that I'm not as good because I didn't work as hard. Crying about "talent" is just a form of sour grapes for those who have decided they don't want to work harder than they already are.
If someone works hard enough to get to the point of comparing a second chair to a first chair in a highly paid professional orchestra, sure small genetic advantages may begin to eclipse level of effort, but when it comes to a college student dropping out of orchestra vs one who sticks with it, that IS a separation in level of effort, and frankly, I'd be curious to see which student spent more time drinking at parties and which spent more time playing their instrument alone in their room while no one was watching.
Apparently you don't drive. Where I live, everyone who wants to take a driving exam has to attend driving lessons, everyone attending the same number and the same kind of lessons. Yet some people pass the driving exam in the first try, and some fail ten times.
There is a huge chasm between "took the same number of lessons" and "worked just as hard at getting better".
Some people put in extra effort. Those who don't dismiss the extra effort as "talent".
No there isn't. There is nothing you can do while taking a lesson other than taking it. One person can't take the same lesson harder than another.
https://www.sciencealert.com/high-iq-correlation-lower-neuron-dendrite-density
I've known far too many stupid musicians to believe IQ is germane to the topic at hand.
Wouldn't it be even more inclusive to make auditions both blind and deaf?
Lol uptrump
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by their skills but by the color of their skin."
I wanna see an all mute opera.
The Marcel Marceau Story
An all mute play might actually be good. Would remind me of the old tv when sound wasn't a big thing on TV. It would have to be action focused and not drama focused.
What's stopping a white musician from throwing in a little African poly-rhythm (musical blackface) in order to trick the panelists into voting for him?
You just meta'd my face off.
Kek
I'm over the multicult civnat bullshit. The US was formed and and nurtured into its current state by mostly white people. Everybody who says that America was built by people of all races is a fucking moron, we didn't start artificially shifting our demographics until 1965 and all of the people who came after that have just reaped the benefits of what our ancestors created while trying to take credit and push us out, claiming it's their country.
The only remotely normal places in this country are at least 80-90% white. The poorest white community in America has less crime than the richest black community, think about how fucking insane that is when they try to shame you for their socioeconomic status.
We've already proven in this country that we're the only demographic capable of not treating others like outsiders, go to any ethnic community other than white and you'll notice they treat you like a freak. Black and Asian communities are the worst offenders, many hispanic communities are much more hospitable.
America needs to remain a white country, in how we teach its history and in its demographics. If it doesn't, the entire west falls. They will use our economic and military influence to fuck over Europe (kind of already are) and undermine white people everywhere. Imagine Africans claiming they were the original Europeans 50 years from now just like they're trying to do everywhere else they've invaded. That's where this is headed; the absolute destruction of Europeans history, values, and states. White people must do what every other race does naturally and develop an in-group preference again.
You are right with this. This will be the best thing for conservatives to do but most of them are afraid. Every great country has a dominant culture and majority ethnicity/race. I see nothing wrong with this as far as every other ethnicity is treated respectably under the law and follow the standards of society. Many minorities know this and won't be angry if it is presented well. blind Civnat doesn't work.
Because there's no such thing as "hispanic". It's "mestizo", a mix of white European and Native American, in varying degrees. That's why mestizos are considered "white".
Umm, not a white country necessarily. Color of your skin doesn’t matter as long as you espouse American values
So I’m not white, but I still believe in and promote American values. I don’t think white property have a monopoly on those values...
Y’all risk turning away non white conservatives with this kind of rhetoric.
This country is was formed and made to prosper under white people. Different types of people immigrated here after. They did not build this country, they moved to a white country and reaped the benefits.
I didn't say they weren't welcome here, they have citizenship now after all, but we need to stop foreign immigration and stop with the cultural marxist bullshit telling us this country isn't our ancestors.
To me, it isn't so much race as it is everyone pulling in the same direction - that used to be called 'Nationalism' but it's been so demonized and vilified you can't even mention it without being called a 'Nazi'. I'd prefer that nations actually looked out for their own and we could negotiate trade etc. in good faith without all the corruption.
You ought to check out some of these essays. It’s real talk. The stuff most people intuitively feel about race, but aren’t allowed to say.
http://racerealist.com/1b.htm
It's not about race. It's about culture. Patriots stand together.
Less crime and division? Sign me up.
No, I want to live in a culturally homogeneous society. I want to return to us being able to collectively celebrate holidays without worrying that someone will be offended because they aren't included. You can celebrate the Easter Bunny if you don't believe in Jesus, and you can have Jack-o-lantern without believing in witchcraft or paganism.
This is our collective American culture and these shared things are what bind us together as a nation. The culture of offense and diversity has only served to dilute these things and divide us into mutually-suspicious tribes.
Go ahead and refute any of my points instead of engaging in ad hominem attacks.
Who the fuck cares if ensembles "reflect their communities?"
Leftists...
I'm having a hard time visualizing an audience for this orchestra/opera
There is very little diversity in who attends classical music concerts
Last time I was at the Kennedy Center it was the whitest fucking white night out I've ever seen. I almost needed sunglasses inside for all the whiteness. I don't mean like a large percent, I mean it was like "where's Waldo" to find someone who wasn't white.
Joggers don't listen to classical music.
all these Girl Scouts who either never went to a concert or were dragged to a bad one.
aka not the damn target audience -- just like literally everything in cancel culture.
Who gives a shit if they boycott you, they weren't buying anyway.
Worse yet, take a look at modern video games, every time a new game comes out, the actual target audience complains and says they will boycott, then they all fucking buy it anyway.
I'd love to see a case where a leftist boycott actually worked to depress the value of a company. All these companies are caving to pressure that doesn't even exist
Pretty much this.
Back when I gave a fuck about sports, I wanted to see humans in peak physical condition (at least for their discipline) achieving something fantastic. When I watch movies, I wanna see an actor who can so thoroughly embody another character that the line between fiction and reality blurs.
I don't give a fuck what color they are, so long as they are the best at what they do.
Sorry the N.Y Philharmonic sucks but enjoy the diversity
And here I thought musical ensembles were there to make the best music possible.
Silly me.
A few years back, in one of the Scandinavian countries they actually pushed to have a blind audition for some classical music competition... The final winners ended up being all white males and the shrieking harpies who pushed for the blind audition aspect lost their fucking minds.
It was such sweet beautiful justice.
Link? I would absolutely love to read about that!
Yes. I know, I know, it's reddit. Boo.
But it's the best I could conjure up.
I love how the left is pushing for racism again. They need a new play book
Americans are incredibly sensitive about black/white race issues. Racism is the narrative that happened to hurt everyone’s feefees. Notice the media isn’t talking about Trump being racist against Hispanics anymore?
A widely read media outlet effectively states that minorities, and presumably women, can not perform music as well as white men.
Nope, no bigotry of low expectations there folks.
The blind auditions were introduced to give women a better chance.
Then they had to do it barefoot because you could still tell by the shoes.
This was all to make selections on merit. OK that's fair enough.
Now the NYT says merit is racist, again.
Merit is racist now because Trump likes merit.
They say merit racist because its proven that races and genders are genetically different on average.
Now they push for equal results/equal outcome regardless of merit.
"I didn't come here to hear music, I came to do statistics"
Do tell
I hear they’re already doing it
If our sports teams are to reflect the communities they serve, the audition process should take into account race, gender, and other factors.
hockey, maybe.
So the left admits that they don't think blacks are good at classical music. Now who is the REAL racist here ?
Yep, I really don't understand the angle here. Blind auditions are literally the definition of eliminating any chance of bias or racism - people are chosen based on their proficiency, regardless of where they come from or what they look like. Everyone should be in favor of that.
I dated a black harp player many years ago. She was so amazingly talented she moved me to tears she played so beautifully. She had tried out for a few orchestras but didn't make the cut. Know what she said? She said "damn, those other harp players are incredible. I need to practice more." I lost touch with her and haven't stalked her to find out what happened but I wouldn't be surprised if she is lead harp in an orchestra somewhere. I know she'll never give up on her dream.
Well black people are too good at drum line. We should make them more diverse too.
Ackshually....
They aren't. They're pretty terrible when it comes to ammo efficiency.
I mean, I guess they're good a "shootings", but they're god-awful at "shooting".
What do you mean white people have no rhythm so we wouldn't be able to keep a beat!
But have enough rhythm to make it to professional orchestras
HMMMMMM something seems off-beat here. Someone's lying
Oh, you mean "summer jobs for white kids" ?
Remember when THAT was a thing?
my comment was a direct response to "walmart" and "grass cutting".
please don't put words in my mouth.
I wasn't disputing your comment; only just adding. I apologize for being unclear.
When the supreme court first ruled on affirmative action in mid 90s Ginsberg wrote the opinion. She opined that in 25 years or so affirmative action policies may not be necessary and would then be unconstitutional. 25 years later look where we are. Doubling down and admissions/hiring based solely on race.
Thomas Sowell has been asking this question for a long time: why does any and every given group need to reflect the demographic makeup of the broader population? It’s just an assumption these days that it must happen, and nobody even bothers to think critically about it anymore. Still though, you don’t hear any calls to make the NBA or the NFL demographically reflective of the broader population.
That’s the bandwagon now. Jumping on the bandwagon is an easy way to thrive in the short term in a capitalistic society. Tomorrow if someone waved a wand and the majority of the world suddenly became pro-white male, pro-equality of opportunity, etc. guess what these companies will do?
Only true visionaries and businessmen see through this crap and stick to their principles. Invest in them
Is this real life? Blind auditions seem like the least racist or sexist thing in the history of racism and sexism.
it's kinda patronizing to black people.
If I was black I would be very offended that the NY Times thinks it is better to patronize black people rather than be honest about the real problems in education, so that black kids can have the same educational opportunities, and attain good jobs by merit rather than skin color.
Every intelligent and talented black person ive ever known finds this shit patronizing. Your skin color doesn’t prevent you from working hard and achieving anything you set your mind to. This bullshit discounts those hard working guys achievements. Ask Clarence Thomas
I think auditions should be only judged by deaf people as well.
Wait...what?
Suddenly, everything has to "reflect the community it serves?" 🤔Isn't that what WAS happening decades ago, when the left began clamoring for more minorities everywhere, though whites were the majority? (Answer: Yes.) Even now, there's OVER- representation of every minority group.
Just so I know what the rules are...
Spot on
This article was clearly not written by someone who played in band at any point. To be in an orchestra requires a full time jobs worth of practice, every day.
My private instructor was world renowned and that man played saxophone six hours a day, every day, sick or well, rain or shine, depressed or happy. And he always told me that if he missed one day, he could tell the next day.
Blind auditions separate the boys from the men. It separates those who kinda practice from those who practice.
Well everybody knows practice is too hard. Gotta make it easier for boys to become men. How else will black people make it as musicians? Through practice and hard work?? Blasphemy!!
Diversify the NBA first. Taken into account race and gender. Give short, unathletic Filipionos a chance and half of the team should be women.
How intense is the echo chamber in a place like NYC? I can't wrap my head around the fact that someone would read that title and subtitle and think its perfectly reasonable. Would these same people be willing to apply this same principle to the doctor doing open heart surgery on them? Big cities and the leftist they breed seem so insulated from reality.
Woke non ticket buyers are not suddenly going to start buying season tickets or donating to the endowment. This is cultural suicide.
If Diversity = Good, we need to get more black people to convert to Judaism.
#OpenBordersForIsrael
Africa too. Think about how many more Africans there are in Europe than White people in Africa.
The Black Hebrew Israelites are working on that.
The Black Hebrew Israelites hate Israeli Jews and LGBT people.
This article supports 'white surpremacy' because it says that non-whites can't compete with whites, as seen with the 'blind auditions' evidence.
It also slanders blind people, calling them all 'racist' for preferring performers who perform better.
This is beyond the pale. NYT is cancer
Can we get some diversity in hip-hop then? I can say nigga 85 times an hour and rap about Rolls Royce trucks too.
I'm a classical musician in one of the Big Five orchestras (Cleveland /Philly/Chicago/New York /Boston). I got really angry after reading this because winning an audition is something we all have in common in the orchestra. We know we all got there because of our good playing and nothing else.
I would support some sort of funding for music education to help children with lessons. I think more could be done to encourage music study but the truth is, it's a horrible long slog to get one of these jobs, and there are many people graduating every year who are amazing players. There are no guarantees, no clear path to success. It's bad odds and I sacrificed a lot of my youth to get here. I have definitely advised young students about the uphill battle they face.
I wonder, if this music critic is so concerned about diversity why he doesn't start with the staff at the Times. All the music critics are white, gay men with similar narrow musical backgrounds. But you can't point out things like that.
And yes, 2x Obama voter and Bernie supporter who now cringes to think about it. Trump 2020!
So glad that there are fellow musicians who are or have become supporters of this site and these ideals!
Every day these people just strengthen the argument for white people to have their own societies seperated from this deranged bullshit.
If only you knew how bad things really are, white people write most of the "beats" for hip hop and rap music too. Then they let black people rap to it and act like they wrote the songs.
My God, back in the 17th or 18th century (can't remember which), they had to start enforcing blind auditions so that talented women would have a chance to play in the orchestra! Ouroboros... the beginning is the end is the beginning for these freaks.
You can have meritocracy or diversity. Not both.
Orchestras serve mostly white and Asian audiences. Blacks hardly ever show up at orchestral concerts or operas. Blacks need to show an interest. The orchestras don’t need to change.
Because we definately dont want the best musicians...
Blacks tend to do better with jazz anyway. It fits the culture better. Jazz and classical tend to have different styles. Ask a classical pianist to play jazz or a jazz pianist to play classical and they won't want to. Very different styles, both are great and provide fantastic music.
If you want more blacks to take up instruments again, then how about bringing jazz back into the forefront of the black community instead of rap? Blacks paved the way for every major musical breakthrough in this country's history. They have a long and storied history in this country of playing their own instruments and making amazing music. Bringing rap to the forefront has taken that away to a large extent.
Then again, that was mainly black men, so who knows if they're even talking about them.
I teach jazz at the college level - have for over a decade. I have other jazz experience I cannot say without giving away too much. Got a kick out of your Faddis story - sounds like the Carnegie Hall Jazz Band days.
A race doesn't "do better with jazz." It depends on what music the person listens to.
Yes, a black family may have been brought up listening to jazz, but as you said, more common is rap/hip-hop. There is also more smooth jazz, Robert Glasper, Roy Hargrove, etc. But if they aren't really listening - and trying to integrate it....
I agree with your point about black musicians who influenced musical breakthroughs in the US. There is an interesting essay on this:
"Jazz and American Culture," Journal of America Folklore 103, no. 403 (1989): 6–22.
I'm so fucking sick of seeing this cringe shit! All the fucking time, not a damn day goes by without some stupid bullshit chilling in the headlines! Fucking clown world has to end at some point!! Are these cucks trying to extinct our own species?! After Trump wins.....there is no holding him back.....that's 4 years to fire/expose enough cucks to finally bring the hammer of justice down on these serpents and burn their demented ideology the fucking ground!!!🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥😡
The New York Times is a local newspaper that does not deserve our attention. Let their bogus ideas continue to destroy NYC.
Mother fucking truth!
Nononononono!!!!!!
I have played bassoon in jr high/high school and in the Army band. Listened to classical my whole life.
When an orchestra is tuned and the notes hit the exact wavelength, my eyes are closed anyway.
Skin tone or eye shape has ZERO to do with performing.
How about y'all make your own orchestra with genderfluild ginger midget lesbians and see if anyone will want to hear your cacophony.
Fucking White People and their (Shuffles Deck)
Musical Talent.
Ok have 99 diversity folks and one real contender in the blind test. See what happens. This is about SOUND not OPTICS.
Welcome to the Monkey House.
Wait, I thought blind auditions was the way to end racism? Did making it a meritocracy end up giving an advantage to whites? Imagine my shock.
LOL this is literally the Nick Cannon/ The Masked Singer Babylon Bee article come to life.