I love most of this message, but should a Doctors office be saying "we trust that your'e an adult and would stay home if sick"? I back this message btw just found it funny.
I mean, this wasn’t actually posted by a doctor’s office. If you’re smart enough to enter and graduate medical school, you don’t believe this nonsense.
I think this forum rightfully brings a lot of important issues and perspectives to light, and I agree with most... but the view on masks is just absurd.
Specifically, say what you will about them being a way to condition obedience, but thinking that they literally do not work is not true.
Source: I’m a lung doctor (pulmonary immunologist) whose lab studies viral & bacterial infection. I voted (and will vote) for Trump so I’m not looking to shill or shame. Just to get us out of this temporary COVID mess.
Maybe a real mask helps but people wear some shreaded old sock with home made elastic bands that they adjust after every other canned good they pick up at Walmart.
The giant holes on surgical masks are millions of times larger than the virus. For scale it's like putting a single fence post in Texas and another in Nevada with nothing between them and saying you built a wall. The only masks that work are within the range N95-P100.
This is true only in situations where so many people are infected that you’re essentially bound to get it, mask or not.
I know the end of that statement might’ve piqued some interest so let me explain clearly.
The really sneaky thing about this virus is that someone can be contagious for a few days before they show symptoms.
This is really the big problem. People aren’t stupid; they will stay home if they have obvious symptoms like coughing or fever (at least most would...). It’s the people who don’t know they’re infected (in the period before they show symptoms, if ever) that are likely spreading it.
The purpose of a mask is simply to prevent droplets containing viral particles from escaping from the mouths/noses of people who might not be aware they have it.
The mask is somewhat helpful in preventing droplets from entering your mouth when you breathe, but not perfectly efficient. It’s much more efficient at preventing infection by covering the infected person’s mouth/nose.
So to summarize more clearly: if you’re in room with 100 unmasked people who have COVID, even if you have a mask, you could still get it. Especially if everyone is coughing and close to you. But if you’re in a room with 100 healthy people and you are infected, by wearing a mask you’re far, far less likely to get everyone else infected.
Anyways— Two things: one, the virus doesn’t breed on the mask. It needs human cells for that. Second, with current infection rates, its not too likely that you’ll be picking up CoV2 particles on the mask from just wearing it once to the store.
The main source of virus on the mask will be you, if you are ever infected. And if you are, the quantity of virus trapped on the mask is nothing compared to the quantity in your lungs, so there isn’t any big risk to yourself. This is why you shouldn’t touch it! Don’t want to take any virus from it and deposit it into public surfaces. Also why you shouldn’t ever share masks, but this seems obvious.
It's been reported that asymptomatic spread is rare, and it probably is, but it's a difficult statistic to measure because you'd need to keep tabs on everyone involved in whatever study at all times to make sure they never ran into a "symptomatic" individual. (Anybody want a microchip?)
The essential point to remember is that "asymptomatic transmission" is the invisible boogeyman that they use to short circuit intelligent discussion. It is a "maybe" that cannot be proven or disproven easily, but it provides the threat of constant risk with no reference to statistical data.
So if someone starts talking about having to stop asymptomatic transmission, ask them how do they know that you can get it asymptomatically. If they say the "news" said so, ask them -- genuinely -- what the statistical risk is. There is no answer to this because no one has actually studied it in reality. Everything is mechanistic theory.
European Journal of Infectious Diseases and Microbiology reported that patients with a low viral load (undetectable disease after 32-34 PCR cycles) are essentially non-infectious and do not transmit the disease. The "asymptomatic" spread is nonsense. The US CDC requires up to 40 (!) PCR cycles to confirm a positive case, which adds legions of people to our positive case count who have absolutely no chance of transmitting the disease. If you really think this is whatsoever grounded in science anymore, I have some gorgeous oceanfront property in Nebraska to sell you.
Mostly false, I believe since March a study in Korea actually found that the majority of cases are due to asymptomatic and low-symptomatic spreaders, despite being less infectious on average. Most of the debate centers on what is considered a true asymptomatic case, but the fact is that most cases are spread by people who are not aware they are sick.
We really don’t know how common asymptomatic spread is. Could be big, could be small. Could be that asymptomatic carriers spread a lower viral load and thus induce infections with lower rates of complications (and even lower rates of symptom presentation).
We do think that a big part of the spread happens from those who are hit hard enough to develop symptoms, in the period before these symptoms are actually developed. I.e. before folks know they have it.
Yea in the beginning of this covid cluster, they said asymptomatic spread could occur 2 weeks before the spreader showed any symptoms!
In the comment before this one you asserted that it can be spread for "a few days" before showing symptoms.
I heard the asymptomatic spread is complete bullshit, and you just admitted here to being unsure about it as well.
Edit. Removed unnecessary nastiness on my part. As he pointed out in response to this, I am extremely frustrated. So sick of being lied to or deceived, all I am capable of doing now is doubting. Now Im gonna go apologize for being a dick because whether this guy is right or wrong, a doctor or not, he has the patience of one.
"It's only counterproductive when there's no possible new infections and when you are trying to prevent yourself from catching it not spreading it"
Then you're not talking about the mechanic of dirty and less effective masks, you're basically attacking his studies for taking place in a hotzone where the mask is trying to be an oxygen tank which no one said. The actual contention here seems to be over the word "useless". A use is defined as a practice which is repeatable. When the RR "risk ratio" is shown to have the same result (eye mucosa, dirty masks) while fulfilling all the conditions of the supposed unexposed scenario (facemasks), the unexposed scenario can be said to be proven useless, however effectiveness abounds.
This is hilarious and also very true. The fact that everyone is walking around in cloth masks is very stupid. Surgical masks are available all over the place and are at least functional to a reasonable baseline, even the crappy ones.
Cloth masks are much more highly variable in their efficiency. Some are great, others awful, and it’s hard to tell without close look at pore size, even if they “feel dense.”
I’d understand brainwashing on political ideals, sure.
But this is a medical point of fact. How does brainwashing work?
I’ll give an example. We are working with live virus and infecting monkeys to assess whether delivering some therapeutics through nebulizers can be improved. I am not simply reading news articles and forming an opinion. I have a very firm grasp of how aerosols and droplets work, on account of seeing it first hand.
Most Nobel Prizes in medicine are awarded to those who challenge the status quo of treatment and I can say pretty assertively that there is a huge emphasis in medical research on playing devil’s advocate and not letting dogma or “brainwashing” influence our findings.
I'm not the guy you replied to - I'm not disagreeing that masks filter micro droplets effectively. I actually don't mind them because I'm a bit of a germophobe.
My opposition to them is two-fold; they aren't 100% effective, the Rona19 can still be transmitted (at a much lower rate of course), and because of this, even if everyone masked up full time, we're all still going to get the virus eventually.
I wouldn't say that masks are completely useless, but it's not like they're some panacea.
The death rate is nothing like the media portrays it to be, any statistic aggregator will show that. So why are we mandating masks for a virus that is no worse than a common coronavirus that goes around every year anyways?
COVID19 is much worse for patients than common colds and flus. I look at the autopsies, Xrays, CT scans, bloodwork, you name it, of COVID patients daily. The immune response that it triggers in some people is absolutely immense. We simply do not see this with other seasonal coronaviruses and typical influenza. I cannot stress enough that this is very clearly not the same thing. I am literally seeing my own patients pass. The death rates and especially the hospitalization rates are nowhere near the same. Please also keep in mind that fatalities aren’t the only measure. Many (if not most) recovered patients leave the hospital with fibrotic scarring and possibly permanent reduction in lung function. This is really not something that you want.
Masks certainly aren’t 100% effective, but containment isn’t about being 100% effective, it is simply about trying to reduce transmission such that each infected person infects less than one new healthy person on average. This is how containment works. Masks are the best solution we have, next to locking everyone at home. Businesses and the economy are suffering; masks let us be out and about while at least minimizing transmission.
We are not all going to get COVID. That is the nightmare scenario with millions of deaths across the country. We don’t really know how infections will play out, but even if this is the case, we do know that masks will slow transmission. And slowing transmission helps hospitals function more efficiently. I can tell you first hand how much mental fatigue is involved in attending to COVID patients because of how dynamic the infection and their own body’s response are. If a quarter of the country is simultaneously positive in a few months, we will have a serious, serious problem on our hands.
"The immune response that it triggers in some people is absolutely immense. We simply do not see this with other seasonal coronaviruses and typical influenza. I cannot stress enough that this is very clearly not the same thing. I am literally seeing my own patients pass"
.
Thank you for posting this. I have read about the recent death of a guy from CV. I have been following this couple's journey around the world on their yacht for 2 years and was stunned to learn he has passed away. CV does seem to have a serious component to it that just goes nuts and then kills people. Again. Thank you for posting this here.
Yes. This is why steroids like dexamethasone have been used successfully — they are a type of immunosuppressant.
With the immune system, it’s a delicate balance. One reason why it often reacts so strongly to this virus is that it is very dissimilar to other viruses to which we have immunity. Our adaptive response gets stimulated very strongly.
People are aloud to disagree here, what specifically is nonsense?
Not the one who down voted you btw, I save those for overt racism and shit-stirring shills.
The nonsense is simply the implication that masks don’t work. They do work. When you go to your doctor’s office, especially now, you should wear a mask.
You can visualize yourself how masks work by spraying an aerosol (like body spray, hairspray, etc) at them and seeing if it goes through. The actual droplets that carry CoV2 are smaller than the droplets in spray deodorant and such but the pores are small enough on masks to filter these much the same way.
I’m sorry but that isn’t an objective source. Just because something is written on the internet does not make it true; there is a bit of due diligence required to assess the quality of what you’re reading before you believe it at face value, especially when it comes to medical/clinical observations.
It literally includes the studies in the link, if you'd read it. Are all of those studies also not objective? I'd say you aren't actually a doctor, but you do have your head in your ass so maybe you are.
The studies Iv'e seen have said that asymptomatic people rarely transmit the disease. That being said, if you DO have symptoms then wear a mask or stay home. I shouldn't have to wear a mask because I MAY be sick when I have no symptoms, meaning I'm asymptomatic or don't have it.
The issue I think many take is mandating a precaution that arguably violates individual liberty.
If you want to wear a mask, great.
Making people wear them and encouraging people and businesses to police it as a legal workaround to an illegal edict is a real problem. You may agree with it this time, but what do you do when they use this as premise to do something you don’t agree with?
Further, if there is a compelling argument for mask wearing, please make it. Shaming people and anecdotal examples are not a substitute for a scientific argument. The idea here was masks would help protect against the spread.
Under scrutiny, that boils down to limiting the spread of aerosol droplets of a certain size Which necessitates that people are actually sick and properly wearing (and handling) a useful mask.
If your argument is essentially that they do ‘something’ so they aren’t worthless
—that’s not a compelling case.
Many, myself included, think violating the rights of millions of people should require a higher bar than ‘an abundance of caution.’
In another comment I’ve linked to a CDC study that analyzed mask. I assume you would accept the CDC and a sourced study as credible evidence.
Can you share some studies showing the value of masks?
Regarding mandates, I’m not making any argument for or against mandating masks. I am simply strongly advising that people wear them as a personal decision. They are a means to minimize transmission while we return to society following lockdown.
To be honest I have not come to a personal conclusion on whether the precedent of mandated mask wearing is right or wrong in my own eyes. I would normally think, the government can fuck off. The problem for me here is that one person’s decision to wear a mask really does affect others. This puts it into a moral grey area for me personally. Okay enough about me.
Some sources worth reading are below. I hope you see that I am not cherry picking. For example, in the first link, there are indeed some reports which show no significant effect from wearing a mask, among others that do demonstrate significance.
I would read the second link too, though, because it is more relevant, but the first one is a review of much more data. Third one is on animal studies, which are on one hand less directly translatable to humans 1:1 but on the other hand, much easier to statistically control and thus often provide a less noisy experiment.
With regard to one persons decision effecting another: The question is, are we individualists or collectivists? Which takes precedent the individual or the collective? Liberty and freedom support individual rights.
First one: continuous use of an N95 mask has a 50/50 chance of benefit in health care workers. It has the same disclaimer on sample size and procedural reliability that you took issue with on the CDC report.
Second one: it’s an abstract making a claim. Perhaps you could link me to the study? Maybe I missed it.
Third one: seems the study may be contingent on strict control of the variables which I think we’ve tacitly agreed isn’t probable in a real world scenario.
I read just the abstract of your link and I’ll make a point that’s possibly a bit more nuanced.
There are some nice, two- or three-ply cloth masks that are good, and work as well as surgical masks for this purpose. Undoubtedly they do. Many also look far less dorky and if it helps people to wear them in public then that’s great.
Other people put a bandana or T-shirt sleeve around their face and call it a “cloth mask.” These are not efficient, particularly because stretching these fabrics causes the pores to expand.
However... if you’re at the grocery store and someone is having a coughing fit, a bad cloth mask is probably still better than no mask at all. In some part because it may reduce how far expelled droplets will travel.
I’ll say one more thing to frame this a little better. Nightmare scenario for transmission is something like:
Highly symptomatic, unmasked COVID patient enters apartment building elevator and hacks their lungs out for the entire duration of the ride. Gets off on their floor, goes inside. Elevator air now full of airborne microdroplets containing CoV2 viral particles.
Elevator goes down, a healthy person enters the elevator. Breathes the uncirculated, virus-laden air for their entire ride up.
Two ways we can prevent this: One, we mask the sick person so they aren’t putting clouds of CoV2 up. Masks help tremendously with this. Even cloth mask would very, very likely be significantly more useful than no mask. Two, we mask the healthy person; less efficient than masking the sick person, but still better than no mask at all. And when both people are masked, chance of transmission plummets even more.
Yes it is certainly possible for infection to be transmitted through the eyes.
This is why masking is far more efficient for preventing the release of virus compared to preventing its capture by some mucosal tissue. If it were released from the eyes it’d be a different story!
Regarding cloth masks I don’t have a good simple litmus test for what would be effective. My advice would be to wear a surgical mask. Local stores and pharmacies sell them. Wear them in public spaces and toss/replace if you end up in close quarters for extended periods, for example popular grocery stores.
If you must use a cloth mask, the key selling points (to me) would be (1) at least two ply, (2) some mention of small pores, (3) no exhalation valve (defeats the purpose), (4) clean fit around the face.
Regarding the droplet, this is tough to say. It certainly doesn’t sit there against the pores like pebbles on a cheesecloth, that is to say, it “sticks” to the material through VDW interactions and does quickly dry. It wouldn’t fall through because the micro-droplet clings to the mask. After completely drying, vast majority of virus particles would remain adsorbed to the mask, others may immediately degrade, and perhaps a few would flow through the mask or be blown off. But it’s highly unlikely to be infected from exposure to just a few capsids.
Again, it’s most important to view this through the lens of containing airborne droplets to those already infected. This is the big big role of masks.
A big mistake was to pretend masks weren’t effective early on. Or to be “on the fence” about it for such a long period.
This was to prevent them from becoming unavailable to healthcare workers who would be exposed to a far higher population of COVID patients than folks at large.
Regarding the “commie face diaper,” you’d have to be an idiot to politicize a face mask.
I live near Seattle. I know 1 person who died who was obese most of his life. had diabetes and was put on a ventilator.
Other than that, I have 10 siblings, parents in 50s. We meet every week. We don't social distance or wear masks. We ignored the shut down and carried on with life like normal. Met with plenty friends, didn't social distance at work etc.
None of us have gotten sick. My mom went to a friend's house where one tested positive for covid (she didn't know) and like the entire family was sick (more like cold symptoms. My mom didn't get sick and didn't get anyone in my family sick.
If not for internet and news, I wouldn't have a clue it even existed.
Put on a ventilator? Then it means the doctors effectively killed him. Not the virus killed him - it was just the excuse to use the ventilators in order to virtue signal and receive government money. The chances to recover from being put up on a ventilator are minuscule, around 10-50% (weighted towards the lower end). I assume he lived in one of the major cities, possibly New York?
What really bugs me is that we've lost against this virus, no amount of measures will ever get rid of it at this point. It's all over the world at this point and it will keep coming back. We just need to learn to live with it. HCQ+zpack+ zinc at early onset and you will be fine. Works for Trump and Bolsanro.
Hey that’s here! I’m in Abilene and this sign is also in Abilene. Sorry, I just like that my little town is getting passed around conservative circles.
I love most of this message, but should a Doctors office be saying "we trust that your'e an adult and would stay home if sick"? I back this message btw just found it funny.
I mean, this wasn’t actually posted by a doctor’s office. If you’re smart enough to enter and graduate medical school, you don’t believe this nonsense.
I think this forum rightfully brings a lot of important issues and perspectives to light, and I agree with most... but the view on masks is just absurd.
Specifically, say what you will about them being a way to condition obedience, but thinking that they literally do not work is not true.
Source: I’m a lung doctor (pulmonary immunologist) whose lab studies viral & bacterial infection. I voted (and will vote) for Trump so I’m not looking to shill or shame. Just to get us out of this temporary COVID mess.
Maybe a real mask helps but people wear some shreaded old sock with home made elastic bands that they adjust after every other canned good they pick up at Walmart.
That shit don't help anyone.
Cloth masks have been shown to make infection rates worse. Unless you're washing it after every time you go out, it is just a breeding ground.
The giant holes on surgical masks are millions of times larger than the virus. For scale it's like putting a single fence post in Texas and another in Nevada with nothing between them and saying you built a wall. The only masks that work are within the range N95-P100.
This is true only in situations where so many people are infected that you’re essentially bound to get it, mask or not.
I know the end of that statement might’ve piqued some interest so let me explain clearly.
The really sneaky thing about this virus is that someone can be contagious for a few days before they show symptoms.
This is really the big problem. People aren’t stupid; they will stay home if they have obvious symptoms like coughing or fever (at least most would...). It’s the people who don’t know they’re infected (in the period before they show symptoms, if ever) that are likely spreading it.
The purpose of a mask is simply to prevent droplets containing viral particles from escaping from the mouths/noses of people who might not be aware they have it.
The mask is somewhat helpful in preventing droplets from entering your mouth when you breathe, but not perfectly efficient. It’s much more efficient at preventing infection by covering the infected person’s mouth/nose.
So to summarize more clearly: if you’re in room with 100 unmasked people who have COVID, even if you have a mask, you could still get it. Especially if everyone is coughing and close to you. But if you’re in a room with 100 healthy people and you are infected, by wearing a mask you’re far, far less likely to get everyone else infected.
Anyways— Two things: one, the virus doesn’t breed on the mask. It needs human cells for that. Second, with current infection rates, its not too likely that you’ll be picking up CoV2 particles on the mask from just wearing it once to the store.
The main source of virus on the mask will be you, if you are ever infected. And if you are, the quantity of virus trapped on the mask is nothing compared to the quantity in your lungs, so there isn’t any big risk to yourself. This is why you shouldn’t touch it! Don’t want to take any virus from it and deposit it into public surfaces. Also why you shouldn’t ever share masks, but this seems obvious.
I heard recently that asymptomatic spread is incredibly unlikely. is that true? just curious tbh
Why are you asking a shill if it's true? You think you'll get the truth from that idiot?
It's been reported that asymptomatic spread is rare, and it probably is, but it's a difficult statistic to measure because you'd need to keep tabs on everyone involved in whatever study at all times to make sure they never ran into a "symptomatic" individual. (Anybody want a microchip?)
The essential point to remember is that "asymptomatic transmission" is the invisible boogeyman that they use to short circuit intelligent discussion. It is a "maybe" that cannot be proven or disproven easily, but it provides the threat of constant risk with no reference to statistical data.
So if someone starts talking about having to stop asymptomatic transmission, ask them how do they know that you can get it asymptomatically. If they say the "news" said so, ask them -- genuinely -- what the statistical risk is. There is no answer to this because no one has actually studied it in reality. Everything is mechanistic theory.
European Journal of Infectious Diseases and Microbiology reported that patients with a low viral load (undetectable disease after 32-34 PCR cycles) are essentially non-infectious and do not transmit the disease. The "asymptomatic" spread is nonsense. The US CDC requires up to 40 (!) PCR cycles to confirm a positive case, which adds legions of people to our positive case count who have absolutely no chance of transmitting the disease. If you really think this is whatsoever grounded in science anymore, I have some gorgeous oceanfront property in Nebraska to sell you.
Mostly false, I believe since March a study in Korea actually found that the majority of cases are due to asymptomatic and low-symptomatic spreaders, despite being less infectious on average. Most of the debate centers on what is considered a true asymptomatic case, but the fact is that most cases are spread by people who are not aware they are sick.
We really don’t know how common asymptomatic spread is. Could be big, could be small. Could be that asymptomatic carriers spread a lower viral load and thus induce infections with lower rates of complications (and even lower rates of symptom presentation).
We do think that a big part of the spread happens from those who are hit hard enough to develop symptoms, in the period before these symptoms are actually developed. I.e. before folks know they have it.
Hope this is a bit useful...
Yea in the beginning of this covid cluster, they said asymptomatic spread could occur 2 weeks before the spreader showed any symptoms!
In the comment before this one you asserted that it can be spread for "a few days" before showing symptoms.
I heard the asymptomatic spread is complete bullshit, and you just admitted here to being unsure about it as well.
Edit. Removed unnecessary nastiness on my part. As he pointed out in response to this, I am extremely frustrated. So sick of being lied to or deceived, all I am capable of doing now is doubting. Now Im gonna go apologize for being a dick because whether this guy is right or wrong, a doctor or not, he has the patience of one.
"It's only counterproductive when there's no possible new infections and when you are trying to prevent yourself from catching it not spreading it"
Then you're not talking about the mechanic of dirty and less effective masks, you're basically attacking his studies for taking place in a hotzone where the mask is trying to be an oxygen tank which no one said. The actual contention here seems to be over the word "useless". A use is defined as a practice which is repeatable. When the RR "risk ratio" is shown to have the same result (eye mucosa, dirty masks) while fulfilling all the conditions of the supposed unexposed scenario (facemasks), the unexposed scenario can be said to be proven useless, however effectiveness abounds.
This is hilarious and also very true. The fact that everyone is walking around in cloth masks is very stupid. Surgical masks are available all over the place and are at least functional to a reasonable baseline, even the crappy ones.
Cloth masks are much more highly variable in their efficiency. Some are great, others awful, and it’s hard to tell without close look at pore size, even if they “feel dense.”
Ehhh it's okay you're brainwashed in your education.
Why do you think this?
I’d understand brainwashing on political ideals, sure.
But this is a medical point of fact. How does brainwashing work?
I’ll give an example. We are working with live virus and infecting monkeys to assess whether delivering some therapeutics through nebulizers can be improved. I am not simply reading news articles and forming an opinion. I have a very firm grasp of how aerosols and droplets work, on account of seeing it first hand.
Most Nobel Prizes in medicine are awarded to those who challenge the status quo of treatment and I can say pretty assertively that there is a huge emphasis in medical research on playing devil’s advocate and not letting dogma or “brainwashing” influence our findings.
Can you be more specific about the brainwashing?
I'm not the guy you replied to - I'm not disagreeing that masks filter micro droplets effectively. I actually don't mind them because I'm a bit of a germophobe.
My opposition to them is two-fold; they aren't 100% effective, the Rona19 can still be transmitted (at a much lower rate of course), and because of this, even if everyone masked up full time, we're all still going to get the virus eventually.
I wouldn't say that masks are completely useless, but it's not like they're some panacea.
The death rate is nothing like the media portrays it to be, any statistic aggregator will show that. So why are we mandating masks for a virus that is no worse than a common coronavirus that goes around every year anyways?
Three big points:
COVID19 is much worse for patients than common colds and flus. I look at the autopsies, Xrays, CT scans, bloodwork, you name it, of COVID patients daily. The immune response that it triggers in some people is absolutely immense. We simply do not see this with other seasonal coronaviruses and typical influenza. I cannot stress enough that this is very clearly not the same thing. I am literally seeing my own patients pass. The death rates and especially the hospitalization rates are nowhere near the same. Please also keep in mind that fatalities aren’t the only measure. Many (if not most) recovered patients leave the hospital with fibrotic scarring and possibly permanent reduction in lung function. This is really not something that you want.
Masks certainly aren’t 100% effective, but containment isn’t about being 100% effective, it is simply about trying to reduce transmission such that each infected person infects less than one new healthy person on average. This is how containment works. Masks are the best solution we have, next to locking everyone at home. Businesses and the economy are suffering; masks let us be out and about while at least minimizing transmission.
We are not all going to get COVID. That is the nightmare scenario with millions of deaths across the country. We don’t really know how infections will play out, but even if this is the case, we do know that masks will slow transmission. And slowing transmission helps hospitals function more efficiently. I can tell you first hand how much mental fatigue is involved in attending to COVID patients because of how dynamic the infection and their own body’s response are. If a quarter of the country is simultaneously positive in a few months, we will have a serious, serious problem on our hands.
Yes. This is why steroids like dexamethasone have been used successfully — they are a type of immunosuppressant.
With the immune system, it’s a delicate balance. One reason why it often reacts so strongly to this virus is that it is very dissimilar to other viruses to which we have immunity. Our adaptive response gets stimulated very strongly.
You're going against the tribe.
People are aloud to disagree here, what specifically is nonsense? Not the one who down voted you btw, I save those for overt racism and shit-stirring shills.
Oh of course they should be allowed to disagree.
The nonsense is simply the implication that masks don’t work. They do work. When you go to your doctor’s office, especially now, you should wear a mask.
You can visualize yourself how masks work by spraying an aerosol (like body spray, hairspray, etc) at them and seeing if it goes through. The actual droplets that carry CoV2 are smaller than the droplets in spray deodorant and such but the pores are small enough on masks to filter these much the same way.
https://www.sott.net/article/434796-The-Science-is-Conclusive-Masks-and-Respirators-do-NOT-Prevent-Transmission-of-Viruses
Masks DO NOT WORK, CONCLUSIVELY
I’m sorry but that isn’t an objective source. Just because something is written on the internet does not make it true; there is a bit of due diligence required to assess the quality of what you’re reading before you believe it at face value, especially when it comes to medical/clinical observations.
It literally includes the studies in the link, if you'd read it. Are all of those studies also not objective? I'd say you aren't actually a doctor, but you do have your head in your ass so maybe you are.
The studies Iv'e seen have said that asymptomatic people rarely transmit the disease. That being said, if you DO have symptoms then wear a mask or stay home. I shouldn't have to wear a mask because I MAY be sick when I have no symptoms, meaning I'm asymptomatic or don't have it.
The issue I think many take is mandating a precaution that arguably violates individual liberty.
If you want to wear a mask, great.
Making people wear them and encouraging people and businesses to police it as a legal workaround to an illegal edict is a real problem. You may agree with it this time, but what do you do when they use this as premise to do something you don’t agree with?
Further, if there is a compelling argument for mask wearing, please make it. Shaming people and anecdotal examples are not a substitute for a scientific argument. The idea here was masks would help protect against the spread. Under scrutiny, that boils down to limiting the spread of aerosol droplets of a certain size Which necessitates that people are actually sick and properly wearing (and handling) a useful mask.
If your argument is essentially that they do ‘something’ so they aren’t worthless —that’s not a compelling case.
Many, myself included, think violating the rights of millions of people should require a higher bar than ‘an abundance of caution.’
In another comment I’ve linked to a CDC study that analyzed mask. I assume you would accept the CDC and a sourced study as credible evidence.
Can you share some studies showing the value of masks?
Regarding mandates, I’m not making any argument for or against mandating masks. I am simply strongly advising that people wear them as a personal decision. They are a means to minimize transmission while we return to society following lockdown.
To be honest I have not come to a personal conclusion on whether the precedent of mandated mask wearing is right or wrong in my own eyes. I would normally think, the government can fuck off. The problem for me here is that one person’s decision to wear a mask really does affect others. This puts it into a moral grey area for me personally. Okay enough about me.
Some sources worth reading are below. I hope you see that I am not cherry picking. For example, in the first link, there are indeed some reports which show no significant effect from wearing a mask, among others that do demonstrate significance.
I would read the second link too, though, because it is more relevant, but the first one is a review of much more data. Third one is on animal studies, which are on one hand less directly translatable to humans 1:1 but on the other hand, much easier to statistically control and thus often provide a less noisy experiment.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25411668/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32371934/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32472679/
Thanks, I’ll read. One more:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372
With regard to one persons decision effecting another: The question is, are we individualists or collectivists? Which takes precedent the individual or the collective? Liberty and freedom support individual rights.
First one: continuous use of an N95 mask has a 50/50 chance of benefit in health care workers. It has the same disclaimer on sample size and procedural reliability that you took issue with on the CDC report.
Second one: it’s an abstract making a claim. Perhaps you could link me to the study? Maybe I missed it.
Third one: seems the study may be contingent on strict control of the variables which I think we’ve tacitly agreed isn’t probable in a real world scenario.
Here’s the full text link for the second one:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2
That's not the implication. That's the interpretation that you chose to make.
Of course you can ask. Happy to answer.
I read just the abstract of your link and I’ll make a point that’s possibly a bit more nuanced.
There are some nice, two- or three-ply cloth masks that are good, and work as well as surgical masks for this purpose. Undoubtedly they do. Many also look far less dorky and if it helps people to wear them in public then that’s great.
Other people put a bandana or T-shirt sleeve around their face and call it a “cloth mask.” These are not efficient, particularly because stretching these fabrics causes the pores to expand.
However... if you’re at the grocery store and someone is having a coughing fit, a bad cloth mask is probably still better than no mask at all. In some part because it may reduce how far expelled droplets will travel.
I’ll say one more thing to frame this a little better. Nightmare scenario for transmission is something like:
Highly symptomatic, unmasked COVID patient enters apartment building elevator and hacks their lungs out for the entire duration of the ride. Gets off on their floor, goes inside. Elevator air now full of airborne microdroplets containing CoV2 viral particles.
Elevator goes down, a healthy person enters the elevator. Breathes the uncirculated, virus-laden air for their entire ride up.
Two ways we can prevent this: One, we mask the sick person so they aren’t putting clouds of CoV2 up. Masks help tremendously with this. Even cloth mask would very, very likely be significantly more useful than no mask. Two, we mask the healthy person; less efficient than masking the sick person, but still better than no mask at all. And when both people are masked, chance of transmission plummets even more.
Yes it is certainly possible for infection to be transmitted through the eyes.
This is why masking is far more efficient for preventing the release of virus compared to preventing its capture by some mucosal tissue. If it were released from the eyes it’d be a different story!
Regarding cloth masks I don’t have a good simple litmus test for what would be effective. My advice would be to wear a surgical mask. Local stores and pharmacies sell them. Wear them in public spaces and toss/replace if you end up in close quarters for extended periods, for example popular grocery stores.
If you must use a cloth mask, the key selling points (to me) would be (1) at least two ply, (2) some mention of small pores, (3) no exhalation valve (defeats the purpose), (4) clean fit around the face.
Regarding the droplet, this is tough to say. It certainly doesn’t sit there against the pores like pebbles on a cheesecloth, that is to say, it “sticks” to the material through VDW interactions and does quickly dry. It wouldn’t fall through because the micro-droplet clings to the mask. After completely drying, vast majority of virus particles would remain adsorbed to the mask, others may immediately degrade, and perhaps a few would flow through the mask or be blown off. But it’s highly unlikely to be infected from exposure to just a few capsids.
Again, it’s most important to view this through the lens of containing airborne droplets to those already infected. This is the big big role of masks.
"Just 14 days to flatten the curve."
They "aren't effective" in March but suddenly in June we need to "stop the [imaginary] surge.
Yeah I'm gonna have to call bullshit. You can wear your useless commie face diaper if you wish. Just stay the hell out of my business.
A big mistake was to pretend masks weren’t effective early on. Or to be “on the fence” about it for such a long period.
This was to prevent them from becoming unavailable to healthcare workers who would be exposed to a far higher population of COVID patients than folks at large.
Regarding the “commie face diaper,” you’d have to be an idiot to politicize a face mask.
And yet here you are, politicizing it. You'd have to be an idiot to wear one.
A BASED DR. 👍🏻
TURN OFF THE FAKE NEWS!!
My overweight doctor died from covid, but I’m not hysterical because if that.
I heard of nobody who died or had any severe case.
You know, sometimes people die to a flu, especially if they are unlucky and in bad health.
I live near Seattle. I know 1 person who died who was obese most of his life. had diabetes and was put on a ventilator.
Other than that, I have 10 siblings, parents in 50s. We meet every week. We don't social distance or wear masks. We ignored the shut down and carried on with life like normal. Met with plenty friends, didn't social distance at work etc.
None of us have gotten sick. My mom went to a friend's house where one tested positive for covid (she didn't know) and like the entire family was sick (more like cold symptoms. My mom didn't get sick and didn't get anyone in my family sick.
If not for internet and news, I wouldn't have a clue it even existed.
Put on a ventilator? Then it means the doctors effectively killed him. Not the virus killed him - it was just the excuse to use the ventilators in order to virtue signal and receive government money. The chances to recover from being put up on a ventilator are minuscule, around 10-50% (weighted towards the lower end). I assume he lived in one of the major cities, possibly New York?
I know more old drunks than old doctors, I think I know who to trust more for longevity's sake
I see you Northam.
If only reason and REAL science could win out, but that doesn't hurt President Trump and push us towards Communism.
God bless Texas...
I would doctor there.
YES!
Your doctor is the man! Or the woman! Either way they rock!
Why would anybody go to a DOCTOR'S OFFICE when they're sick?
What really bugs me is that we've lost against this virus, no amount of measures will ever get rid of it at this point. It's all over the world at this point and it will keep coming back. We just need to learn to live with it. HCQ+zpack+ zinc at early onset and you will be fine. Works for Trump and Bolsanro.
Nah.
Herd immunity.
Also, this is going to weigh in at a puny 0.002% death rate. Less than one in every 50,000 will die. I think we can live with that.
It will soon be mistaken for the flu. Maybe it already has been, even!
Mask wearers have stopped social distancing in my area.
How do I move to this wholesome place?
Well put.
Based AF.
I love how its in all caps
Hey that’s here! I’m in Abilene and this sign is also in Abilene. Sorry, I just like that my little town is getting passed around conservative circles.