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Bent elbows is only smart if you don't want to beat your joins up with a lifetime of magnum recoil from 44, 454, or greater. Locked out arms is a great benefit to accuracy and 9mm recoil is negligible.
If you’re going for single shot mechanical accuracy, maybe, but I find I have much better recovery and recoil control while shooting and moving with pistols of all sizes/calibers with that slight bend in my elbow.
If it works for you keep on keeping on, but I’ve tried it both ways and settled on what’s best and fastest for me.
I wouldn't say that's wrong. Especially if it works for you. But fatigue would be an issue before too long like that. Which, if we are shooting paper, who cares? Right? But I don't train others or myself like I'm punching paper. Limp noodle arms are wrong, flexing is wrong, and locking out your elbows is wrong.
I teach that if you have a high firm grip with slightly bent elbows the the tension in your arms is assumed to be proper with out any additional effort.
Regardless, if something works for you, stick with it.
I don't, that's more for defensive pros. I know fundimentals.
However, that's also about a shorter lever. Meaning with arms extended it takes longer to get on target. With arms drawn in to the chest it reduces the distance the gun travels to make it from Target to Target, reducing follow up shot time.
Another great benefit of it is point shooting, or shooting without the use of your sights. Pay for quality training if you want to learn and use these skills.
If I can make one suggestion based on the picture?
You want your left hand to be higher on the grip. Recoil will travel down the path of least resistance and by moving your left hand up you’ll be able to recover between shots faster.
Here’s a video that I found that is the best explanation I’ve ever seen. I recommend this to new shooters when asked at the range. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O1iDjiLrp6g
Skip to the 6:40 mark if you just want an example of the grip.
Totally get what you mean. Thought that too when I was learning to shoot.
Done properly the thumb is below the slide on the frame of the pistol. Not really pressing against the slide. If you look at a Glock, as the op has, it has a fat portion where your thumb would be so it’s actually off the slide based on gun design too.
The thumb changes slightly but the principle remains the same on different styles of pistol.
You do you, and don't change anything based off what one guy on an internet forum tells you, especially if you're really used to doing it one way and you're really good at it, but that being said, no one really uses or teaches the Weaver stance anymore. Modified isosceles is basically standard now. Particularly because it's useful regardless of what you're doing, pistol, rifle, shotgun, hand to hand, knife fighting, impact weapons, Etc. It also doesn't favor one hand over the other so you can use the same stance for switching shoulders with a rifle or offhand shooting with a pistol, and if you're wearing armor (and you should be) it maximizes front protection without exposing your sides as much.
Sorry pede, but the weaver has replaced the isoscelese as the standard, especially with new shooters. It's whats taught in law enforcement and has been for many years. This bring said, l pointed out 3 times in my post that he should use the stance that feels more comfortable to him, if he doesn't feel better with his left foot forward, now's the time to go back for good.
Most law enforcement still use Isosceles or a variation of it. That's what we use. Weaver is not conducive to movement and is, in my opinion, more of a static stance for shooting in a booth at the range. If you ever wear armor, you want to be squared up with the threat.
Honestly, you can't take internet learning too seriously when it comes to shooting because its so hands on and everyone thinks they know everything. My advice is if you want to learn to shoot, go take some shooting classes from professionals who are respected in the industry. Good training is a little pricey but worth it.
SHooters are still taught both stances, but a main reason LEO is taught the iso stance is the prevalence of body armor. With Weaver, you are exposing the opening in your armpit towards the incoming fire. Iso may prevent a wider target to them than a bladed Weaver stance, but it also projects the most coverage with the armor, and opens up your "work area" to access reloads/lights etc on the duty belt.
CCW and regular citizens don't have those same concerns, and Weaver is more useful when using cover, such as a wall in a hallway.
When I started competition shooting, I started with the Weaver, felt strong, and for law enforcement it has the advantage of blading your sidearm away from the person you are in contact with. But I found after a longer string of fire or multiple targets, at the end of the run I noticed I always ended up in an iso position. Natural Point of Aim is important so you are not firing your natural tendencies. For example, with your eyes closed while dryfiring, against a blank wall, draw and aim. Then open your eyes to see where you are pointing. Is it straight in front of you when you open your eyes, or off to your weak side? Change your foot position until you draw and point to your intended target with your eyes closed, and that is your baseline.
Guys with big Arnold biceps will point different than noodle arms, women with tig ol bitties will point different than fat guys. Find what works, and do not stick to one doctrine just because one book or you video or one meatbag on the internet told you to.
Brian Enos has the absolute best book, Beyond Fundamentals. It can be hard to find, I have not found one better.
It's not a serious stance for serious people who might have to use firearms against other people. It ain't 1975 anymore. Modern combat shooting means rifles, armor, shoulder to shoulder transitions, offhand shooting, quick transitions to alternate weapons or unarmed, etc. And Weaver is flawed with all of those.
Hell ever your own article you linked to calls out Modified Isosceles as the best one for real shooting with basically no drawbacks.
The article, from the police force, mentions that it is the new standard taught to new shooters and policemen. I had an other article recently that said they teach the weaver because it makes it much easier to move into a hybrid position from there contrary to learning the isoscelese. But once again, you do what you feel comfortable with. Cheers and g/n.
Ignore your foot placement, you shoot from the waist up. Which means lean forward more so not pushed by recoil. You can see it worse in new shooters with shotguns, then lean back at the waist to balance the weight of holding the gun up, then when it goes off they are pushed back. Neutral or sllightly aggressive stance with your hands at your side. Then when you draw, you are not leaning back to counter the weight being held at arms length, but lean forward to counter being pushed back.
Your upper body is a turret, free to turn to engage as needed (iso or weaver stance, what works for you). You feet can be dancing an Irish jig under you and it will not affect your stance, that way you can still shoot while running, uneven ground, kneeling (not for the flag!), retreating, etc.
And, their other grip advice of choking up on the pistol with interlocked hands. If you have to adjust your hand's position on the gun after each shot, it is moving and you are not holding on proper. It should snap back to the same position after after recoil, which also makes follow up shots faster and more accurate
I'm the guy who commented on your isoscelese stance last week. You are getting closer to the weaver stance, you're in a hybrid position at the moment. Which is fine.
Now's the time to see what's important, do you feel better with the left foot slightly forward? If so, keep going until you get to this.
If you dont feel better, there's nothing wrong with the isoscelese. Most people l know, and especially new shooters, use the Weaver. But like l said, you're the one shooting, do it how you feel best is what counts. Cheers.
Good posture. Note the tucked in elbows instead of the "broken arm" position. This gives the supporting hand lateral recoil control. Locked out firing hand the same. Hips tight and forward, back straight.
Grip higher - ideal would be if you could hold over the back of the slide. You can't, so grip as high as possible without obstructing it.
Your stance isnt bad. Its hard to tell, but you might be leaning back/not tightening abdomen. This is fighting skill, drive with your pelvis. Weight into the balls of the feet.
I see someone already got the point across about the grip. Left hand should be up higher, thumb riding side of frame.
But I wanted to add 2 cents: Lotta guys might shit on you for “shooting too close” but focus on practicing groups at 7-10yds max. This is the most common self defense range that I’m aware of.
Also if the public range allows it, practice drawing from concealment and then firing at the target. Reholster, re conceal. Then repeat.
Are you bringing the trigger to the wall before you pull. I didn’t realize how much of a difference it made with my shot groupings. Making sure you bring it to the wall, wall wall. And then pull.
Also keep in mind that you will not extend your gun out in front of you in a close encounter, only when the target is at some distance and won't try to take your gun away.
I'm sure all this has been said. 1. Keep it up! 2. Lean in to it; like you're driving the gun forward against a gale-force wind. 3. Rotate arms so elbows are pointed out, rather than down.
But what I really wanted to ask, is that range named after a local hub of mass conveyance, like a train/bus station, airport or port...?
Came here to say this. Plus you need to get your firing arm straight to absorb the force
I think that’s a 50/50 school of thought thing.
I’ve done it both ways and I find a very slight bend in the elbows acts as a shock absorber and allows faster follow up shots.
Ymmv
As a beginner I agree with this sentiment. Keeping my elbows locked was throwing me off while I was learning.
Bent elbows is only smart if you don't want to beat your joins up with a lifetime of magnum recoil from 44, 454, or greater. Locked out arms is a great benefit to accuracy and 9mm recoil is negligible.
I’m gonna have to disagree with you, partner.
If you’re going for single shot mechanical accuracy, maybe, but I find I have much better recovery and recoil control while shooting and moving with pistols of all sizes/calibers with that slight bend in my elbow.
If it works for you keep on keeping on, but I’ve tried it both ways and settled on what’s best and fastest for me.
Never.... I was a Marine corps rifle and pistol coach. Never lock out your arms. Never.
The way it was taught to me is to image I'm doing a pushup. That's the level of strength I should keep with slightly bent elbows.
I wouldn't say that's wrong. Especially if it works for you. But fatigue would be an issue before too long like that. Which, if we are shooting paper, who cares? Right? But I don't train others or myself like I'm punching paper. Limp noodle arms are wrong, flexing is wrong, and locking out your elbows is wrong.
I teach that if you have a high firm grip with slightly bent elbows the the tension in your arms is assumed to be proper with out any additional effort.
Regardless, if something works for you, stick with it.
Thanks.
Do you ever teach shooting with the elbows fully bent and retracted, i.e. with the gun next to your chest?
I would shoot like that in a situation where the threat was very close and extending my arms would put my gun within the enemy's reach.
I don't, that's more for defensive pros. I know fundimentals.
However, that's also about a shorter lever. Meaning with arms extended it takes longer to get on target. With arms drawn in to the chest it reduces the distance the gun travels to make it from Target to Target, reducing follow up shot time.
Another great benefit of it is point shooting, or shooting without the use of your sights. Pay for quality training if you want to learn and use these skills.
For fun, watch these guys work. Holy shit. https://youtu.be/WA0cewh0-XE
These guys are the Grammar Nazis' final boss.
Yes the straight right arm improved my accuracy
Lmao good simile pede
Practice makes perfect brother. Keep it up.
If I can make one suggestion based on the picture? You want your left hand to be higher on the grip. Recoil will travel down the path of least resistance and by moving your left hand up you’ll be able to recover between shots faster.
Here’s a video that I found that is the best explanation I’ve ever seen. I recommend this to new shooters when asked at the range. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O1iDjiLrp6g
Skip to the 6:40 mark if you just want an example of the grip.
Again good work. Keep it up.
Great video.. will come in helpful this week at the range
I see that grip sometimes. But how are they not interfering with the slide since they have their grip pressed into it?
Totally get what you mean. Thought that too when I was learning to shoot.
Done properly the thumb is below the slide on the frame of the pistol. Not really pressing against the slide. If you look at a Glock, as the op has, it has a fat portion where your thumb would be so it’s actually off the slide based on gun design too.
The thumb changes slightly but the principle remains the same on different styles of pistol.
Edit a word.
Like SoAngryRanger says, you shouldnt have your thumb "on" the slide, it will be right below it.
This shows it done well - https://i.ytimg.com/vi/4vY5B2Hjwkk/maxresdefault.jpg
Big ass beaver tail.
I'm still a gun noob, but I recommend taking a more aggressive (boxer-style) stance and putting one thumb over the other.
Looks good otherwise.
Weaver stance. https://kekpe.pe/i/5f277946ccfe7.jpg
It's probably been 15 years since I heard someone defend Jack's stance.
You do you, and don't change anything based off what one guy on an internet forum tells you, especially if you're really used to doing it one way and you're really good at it, but that being said, no one really uses or teaches the Weaver stance anymore. Modified isosceles is basically standard now. Particularly because it's useful regardless of what you're doing, pistol, rifle, shotgun, hand to hand, knife fighting, impact weapons, Etc. It also doesn't favor one hand over the other so you can use the same stance for switching shoulders with a rifle or offhand shooting with a pistol, and if you're wearing armor (and you should be) it maximizes front protection without exposing your sides as much.
Sorry pede, but the weaver has replaced the isoscelese as the standard, especially with new shooters. It's whats taught in law enforcement and has been for many years. This bring said, l pointed out 3 times in my post that he should use the stance that feels more comfortable to him, if he doesn't feel better with his left foot forward, now's the time to go back for good.
https://www.policeone.com/police-products/firearms/training/articles/the-3-shooting-stances-which-ones-right-for-you-LA3iowVFZFC9hE24/
Most law enforcement still use Isosceles or a variation of it. That's what we use. Weaver is not conducive to movement and is, in my opinion, more of a static stance for shooting in a booth at the range. If you ever wear armor, you want to be squared up with the threat.
Honestly, you can't take internet learning too seriously when it comes to shooting because its so hands on and everyone thinks they know everything. My advice is if you want to learn to shoot, go take some shooting classes from professionals who are respected in the industry. Good training is a little pricey but worth it.
SHooters are still taught both stances, but a main reason LEO is taught the iso stance is the prevalence of body armor. With Weaver, you are exposing the opening in your armpit towards the incoming fire. Iso may prevent a wider target to them than a bladed Weaver stance, but it also projects the most coverage with the armor, and opens up your "work area" to access reloads/lights etc on the duty belt.
CCW and regular citizens don't have those same concerns, and Weaver is more useful when using cover, such as a wall in a hallway.
When I started competition shooting, I started with the Weaver, felt strong, and for law enforcement it has the advantage of blading your sidearm away from the person you are in contact with. But I found after a longer string of fire or multiple targets, at the end of the run I noticed I always ended up in an iso position. Natural Point of Aim is important so you are not firing your natural tendencies. For example, with your eyes closed while dryfiring, against a blank wall, draw and aim. Then open your eyes to see where you are pointing. Is it straight in front of you when you open your eyes, or off to your weak side? Change your foot position until you draw and point to your intended target with your eyes closed, and that is your baseline.
Guys with big Arnold biceps will point different than noodle arms, women with tig ol bitties will point different than fat guys. Find what works, and do not stick to one doctrine just because one book or you video or one meatbag on the internet told you to.
Brian Enos has the absolute best book, Beyond Fundamentals. It can be hard to find, I have not found one better.
It's not a serious stance for serious people who might have to use firearms against other people. It ain't 1975 anymore. Modern combat shooting means rifles, armor, shoulder to shoulder transitions, offhand shooting, quick transitions to alternate weapons or unarmed, etc. And Weaver is flawed with all of those.
Hell ever your own article you linked to calls out Modified Isosceles as the best one for real shooting with basically no drawbacks.
The article, from the police force, mentions that it is the new standard taught to new shooters and policemen. I had an other article recently that said they teach the weaver because it makes it much easier to move into a hybrid position from there contrary to learning the isoscelese. But once again, you do what you feel comfortable with. Cheers and g/n.
Isoscelese all the way. 100%.
Chapman all the way. 100%. But its a bitch getting there from strictly the iso.
The haircut is still fresh
instructions unclear made a bbq party with slapped meat at 12 o'clock in my picket fence backyard
Splatterburst targets will let you see where you're shooting (if you want) without having to bring the target home frequently.
Ignore your foot placement, you shoot from the waist up. Which means lean forward more so not pushed by recoil. You can see it worse in new shooters with shotguns, then lean back at the waist to balance the weight of holding the gun up, then when it goes off they are pushed back. Neutral or sllightly aggressive stance with your hands at your side. Then when you draw, you are not leaning back to counter the weight being held at arms length, but lean forward to counter being pushed back.
Your upper body is a turret, free to turn to engage as needed (iso or weaver stance, what works for you). You feet can be dancing an Irish jig under you and it will not affect your stance, that way you can still shoot while running, uneven ground, kneeling (not for the flag!), retreating, etc.
And, their other grip advice of choking up on the pistol with interlocked hands. If you have to adjust your hand's position on the gun after each shot, it is moving and you are not holding on proper. It should snap back to the same position after after recoil, which also makes follow up shots faster and more accurate
Weaver stance with a cup and saucer grip.
I wouldn't recommend either of those, but I'm simply happy to see new people at the range.
edit: If you are looking for content to learn more about shooting: https://www.youtube.com/user/MiculekDotCom
Jerry is absolutely amazing.
https://wlos.com/news/local/reward-offered-for-information-on-who-put-trump-2020-sticker-on-bear?fbclid=IwAR1IAJYMYlWFCy3IlfJ_-LS97OEXeiOFlFmNSdH2DpoyazbLcV_bYHMpqSM
yeah this shouldnt be stickied. More BEAR MEMES
I'm the guy who commented on your isoscelese stance last week. You are getting closer to the weaver stance, you're in a hybrid position at the moment. Which is fine.
Now's the time to see what's important, do you feel better with the left foot slightly forward? If so, keep going until you get to this.
https://kekpe.pe/i/5f277946ccfe7.jpg
If you dont feel better, there's nothing wrong with the isoscelese. Most people l know, and especially new shooters, use the Weaver. But like l said, you're the one shooting, do it how you feel best is what counts. Cheers.
Good posture. Note the tucked in elbows instead of the "broken arm" position. This gives the supporting hand lateral recoil control. Locked out firing hand the same. Hips tight and forward, back straight.
Grip higher - ideal would be if you could hold over the back of the slide. You can't, so grip as high as possible without obstructing it.
Your stance isnt bad. Its hard to tell, but you might be leaning back/not tightening abdomen. This is fighting skill, drive with your pelvis. Weight into the balls of the feet.
Everyone is posting their favorite grip videos, here's my recommendation from one of the best shooters the world has ever seen.
Great video.
LOL at that guy in the video who wears a pink t-shirt at the range
More aggressive with your shoulders. Lean forward to get your nose over your lead foot. Boxers stance is correct.
Also when bringing the gun up you can "aim" with your left thumb. It's actually very accurate.
I see someone already got the point across about the grip. Left hand should be up higher, thumb riding side of frame.
But I wanted to add 2 cents: Lotta guys might shit on you for “shooting too close” but focus on practicing groups at 7-10yds max. This is the most common self defense range that I’m aware of.
Also if the public range allows it, practice drawing from concealment and then firing at the target. Reholster, re conceal. Then repeat.
Watch this video and then watch it 100x times after that. It completely transformed my shooting, hopefully it can do the same for you. Enjoy!
https://youtu.be/45QhpvY9LZc
Are you bringing the trigger to the wall before you pull. I didn’t realize how much of a difference it made with my shot groupings. Making sure you bring it to the wall, wall wall. And then pull.
And then to reset and not past after each shot.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6QH13V2o68zynSa0hZy9uQ
You should be doing a handstand and shooting. That's my preferred method
This is the best video on the internet about gripping a gun: https://youtu.be/7jVbvwWtWIA
This is the way.
Lenny is awesome!
Go to a local USPSA match or practice. They'll fix all that.
Glad to see you at the range. Now buy this
https://panteao.com/product/tac-pistol-operator/
Paul is the man... I know how to shoot because of his instruction. Simple easy and to the point.
Go get it.
Also keep in mind that you will not extend your gun out in front of you in a close encounter, only when the target is at some distance and won't try to take your gun away.
You need some confidence. Keep at it and it'll come. Right know if mistake you for a Democrat just by the stance haha. Don't fear the gun. Master it.
I'm sure all this has been said. 1. Keep it up! 2. Lean in to it; like you're driving the gun forward against a gale-force wind. 3. Rotate arms so elbows are pointed out, rather than down.
But what I really wanted to ask, is that range named after a local hub of mass conveyance, like a train/bus station, airport or port...?
once you've got the practice under your belt and are comfortable, look at some firing courses, moving from cover, multiple targets, ect.
the one thing about firearms is training is vast, varied, and there is no set in stone "this is the only way to do this".