The fentanyl killed him. That's why he couldn't breathe. The officers didn't realize he was od'd on the stuff because of the way he was freaking out. The behavior wasn't consistent with what they expected from someone high on such a strong depressant.
its pretty clear from the autopsy that his death was a result of:
Extremely, almost absurdly severe heart disease (so incredibly bad its a wonder he was still alive*
Drug overdose
Overexertion
those factors combined are what killed him, not just one element. He shoved fentanyl up his own ass, that wouldn't kill a normal healthy human being, he had enough in his system that a normal human would be fully anesthetized and you could cut them open for heart surgery while they're awake without feeling a thing. But in someone with 90% blocked arteries and 560g heart and 3:1 LVH? Almost guaranteed fatal. And with a heart like that, any exertion would kill him, let alone on a cocktail of uppers and downers
He had residual amounts of meth. He had taken that at some time earlier. He was on fentanyl. I hadn't heard it was a suppository. I hate that anyone gets that screwed up. You're right though, he was a walking time bomb.
Having watched the video they used to gin up police hatred (I can’t breed), and then the leaked body cam video, my impression was Kirby suffered cardiac arrest following agitated delirium.
No doubt the other drugs contributed to his death, but that didn’t look like an opiate overdose to me.
To be totally honest that level of medicine is beyond my scope, but I’ve never seen or heard of anything like that happening. I regularly administer fentanyl for sedation and pain control just to give you an idea of where I’m coming from.
Just a guess but what I think happened is Kirby’s heightened metabolism and muscle activity caused a spike in serum potassium levels. The effect of that on his already over taxed and diseased heart caused his cardiac arrest.
Hyperkalemia (High serum potassium) is one of the reversible causes we consider when attempting to revive someone in cardiac arrest.
I'm not a doctor or even in medicine, so, always grateful for someone's opinion who probably knows more about such things.
Hyperkalemia or some form of heightened metabolism is kinda what I was trying to draw towards. If the RoA was rectal or he swallowed potential 'evidence' as it were... I mean, he was in the 'excited delirium' for a time period of minutes. I don't think he just dosed fentanyl, because AFAIK (I'm a layman) there is no paradoxical reaction from a boatload of fentanyl with any other given RoA.
The supposed (I'm skeptical of everything, especially these days) toxicology reports I keep seeing on a basic search says for Kirby:
Methamphetamine: 19 ng/mL via blood tested by LC-MS/MS.
I'm not a toxicologist so I don't know if 19ng/mL is a shitload of blood level of methamp. or not. No point of reference. Not even sure if the tox report is legit but taking these two contradictive and powerful drugs (in their respective classes and pharmokinetic function) even with a hearty tolerance is dangerous as hell. It's how people end up dead.
My interest in the medicine is piqued.
What's interesting is: if we can determine that 19 ng/mL plasma concentration is akin to eating or shoving x amount of nickel/dime/$5/$10 bags up your ass/down your throat, then the who restrain/knee thing is basically a non-starter as an argument. Not that most people here seem to buy that argument and neither do I (nor does the autopsy)... but the normies, y'know?
It is strange, usually they stop responding and go cyanotic very quickly.
I suppose it depends on the RoA, other drug interactions, underlying conditions... the strange thought that occurs to me that if he simply nodded out and was unresponsive it would have been obvious what was going on and they could have administered Naloxone. Probably wouldn't have helped given the other factors but yeah, strange presentation. Probably thought he was smoking that synthetic Buddah shit. I see weird type of behavior every time I go into the city, so...
Interesting from a medical standpoint but it's hard to have sympathy on a more basic level. He'd been playing stupid games since the mid 90s. Once your number's up, it's really up.
I think he was hypnotically conditioned to have an adrenaline response to the handcuffs and the police car. You see almost the exact same response in the Brooks case in Atlanta. In that case he had a very significant amount of alcohol in his system, also a depressant that should have had a sedating effect.
Yeah I suspect that’s the meth. Doing the ghetto speed ball.
All the people I’ve ever seen with any sort of opiate toxicity generally just sorta lay down and go to sleep. Then respiratory arrest>hypoxia>cardiac arrest>death.
The fact Kirby kept going, screaming he couldn’t brief, makes me think it was something other than opiates.
The fentanyl killed him. That's why he couldn't breathe. The officers didn't realize he was od'd on the stuff because of the way he was freaking out. The behavior wasn't consistent with what they expected from someone high on such a strong depressant.
its pretty clear from the autopsy that his death was a result of:
Extremely, almost absurdly severe heart disease (so incredibly bad its a wonder he was still alive*
Drug overdose
Overexertion
those factors combined are what killed him, not just one element. He shoved fentanyl up his own ass, that wouldn't kill a normal healthy human being, he had enough in his system that a normal human would be fully anesthetized and you could cut them open for heart surgery while they're awake without feeling a thing. But in someone with 90% blocked arteries and 560g heart and 3:1 LVH? Almost guaranteed fatal. And with a heart like that, any exertion would kill him, let alone on a cocktail of uppers and downers
Nuh uh- not what the Epstein doctor said...lol
He had residual amounts of meth. He had taken that at some time earlier. He was on fentanyl. I hadn't heard it was a suppository. I hate that anyone gets that screwed up. You're right though, he was a walking time bomb.
Thank you for bringing up the autopsy. It isn’t brought up enough.
Having watched the video they used to gin up police hatred (I can’t breed), and then the leaked body cam video, my impression was Kirby suffered cardiac arrest following agitated delirium.
No doubt the other drugs contributed to his death, but that didn’t look like an opiate overdose to me.
Paradoxical reaction or release of adrenline before dying? Kind of like a major myoclonic jerk?
Interested to know the concentration of methamp., amphet., etc... upon autopsy.
To be totally honest that level of medicine is beyond my scope, but I’ve never seen or heard of anything like that happening. I regularly administer fentanyl for sedation and pain control just to give you an idea of where I’m coming from.
Just a guess but what I think happened is Kirby’s heightened metabolism and muscle activity caused a spike in serum potassium levels. The effect of that on his already over taxed and diseased heart caused his cardiac arrest.
Hyperkalemia (High serum potassium) is one of the reversible causes we consider when attempting to revive someone in cardiac arrest.
I'm not a doctor or even in medicine, so, always grateful for someone's opinion who probably knows more about such things.
Hyperkalemia or some form of heightened metabolism is kinda what I was trying to draw towards. If the RoA was rectal or he swallowed potential 'evidence' as it were... I mean, he was in the 'excited delirium' for a time period of minutes. I don't think he just dosed fentanyl, because AFAIK (I'm a layman) there is no paradoxical reaction from a boatload of fentanyl with any other given RoA.
The supposed (I'm skeptical of everything, especially these days) toxicology reports I keep seeing on a basic search says for Kirby:
I'm not a toxicologist so I don't know if 19ng/mL is a shitload of blood level of methamp. or not. No point of reference. Not even sure if the tox report is legit but taking these two contradictive and powerful drugs (in their respective classes and pharmokinetic function) even with a hearty tolerance is dangerous as hell. It's how people end up dead.
My interest in the medicine is piqued.
What's interesting is: if we can determine that 19 ng/mL plasma concentration is akin to eating or shoving x amount of nickel/dime/$5/$10 bags up your ass/down your throat, then the who restrain/knee thing is basically a non-starter as an argument. Not that most people here seem to buy that argument and neither do I (nor does the autopsy)... but the normies, y'know?
TL;DR ver: contradictive drugs are dangerous yo
I've never seen anyone on a lethal dose of fentanyl get so agitated.
It is strange, usually they stop responding and go cyanotic very quickly.
I suppose it depends on the RoA, other drug interactions, underlying conditions... the strange thought that occurs to me that if he simply nodded out and was unresponsive it would have been obvious what was going on and they could have administered Naloxone. Probably wouldn't have helped given the other factors but yeah, strange presentation. Probably thought he was smoking that synthetic Buddah shit. I see weird type of behavior every time I go into the city, so...
Interesting from a medical standpoint but it's hard to have sympathy on a more basic level. He'd been playing stupid games since the mid 90s. Once your number's up, it's really up.
I think he was hypnotically conditioned to have an adrenaline response to the handcuffs and the police car. You see almost the exact same response in the Brooks case in Atlanta. In that case he had a very significant amount of alcohol in his system, also a depressant that should have had a sedating effect.
Yeah I suspect that’s the meth. Doing the ghetto speed ball.
All the people I’ve ever seen with any sort of opiate toxicity generally just sorta lay down and go to sleep. Then respiratory arrest>hypoxia>cardiac arrest>death.
The fact Kirby kept going, screaming he couldn’t brief, makes me think it was something other than opiates.