It is standard that doctors pronounce time of death for recording purposes. As a matter of fact it's one of the only legal ways to do it.
It is commonplace that CPR is not initiated in a timely fashion due to provider error. I can show you studies with the amount of times a palpated pulse was read incorrectly and CPR was delayed unnecessarily. Even by doctors it is extremely common place (Greater than 30% of the time IIRC from the last time I read these studies 2 years ago)
It is also common practice when a scene is deemed unsafe or not conducive to performing CPR that a patient is moved to the ambulance before initiating CPR. The crowd, street side scene, and police presence would all lend themselves to this.
It is also commonplace that when a patient who presents viable is brought into the ER that resuscitation efforts are continued. This is especially common if certain interventions have not been performed yet such as intubation, drug administration, X ray of the chest, bilateral needle decompression in the evidence of trauma, etc etc. Even more commonplace when police are potentially the cause of the death, because providers are going to go to great lengths for a good outcome to protect their fellow responders.
All of this takes time, and we didn't mention transport time to ER, transfer from ambo to hospital, gurney to hospital bed, ongoing treatments, lab results, etc. There is so much more I could go into.
Bottom line don't look for a conspiracy where one obviously doesn't exist.
Bottom line, don't misuse the word "conspiracy". It's commonplace in language to know what a word actually means before using it as misuse will make you look like a tremendous fool and asshat.
I think what you want to say is there is no evidence Mr. Geroge wasn't dead before being pronounced dead (or DOA or whatever.)
What you're actually saying is "don't think this through", "if you don't know what I know you're a shameful pejorative word that I'm not even cogent enough to know or explain" and "valid questions to people who aren't in the industry or have my personal experience should be met with insult and shaming".
Which is a big fuck you to op, so I say a big fuck you back. Show a little respect.
Explain things without insulting people if you're such an "expert".
Whether something is "commonplace" in your personal experience doesn't fucking matter to someone trying to get to the bottom of an obviously false narrative which people DID conspire to create and perpetrate on the American people.
So there IS or iSN'T a conspiracy, NO MATTER WHERE ONE MIGHT LOOK FOR IT. You're trying to be such a slick insult dickwad that you don't even take time to define your terms and it makes you look ESPECIALLY lazy and hypocritical.
Whether or not there is evidence hither or yon matters very little when there is definite evidence of two or more people meeting in secret to either plan, execute, or not let a crisis go to waste - whether for good OR for evil is irrelevant to people conspiring to do so. It's a "conspiracy" by definition.
Don't be such a sucker if you're going to tell people not to be a sucker. It's commonplace where I come from to use words accurately, and precisely - that is, to use correct language. Neurolinguistic programming has you by the balls.
In which case I'm not sure how anybody would be expected to know all your arrogant procedural memorizations. Did he die on camera? When did he actually physically die? THAT'S WHAT OP IS ASKING, CAN YOU ANSWER IT? OR DO YOU JUST WANNA BE A DICK VIRTUE SIGNALING YOUR SMARTNESS?
And as imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, since you insulted OP I will insult you back, smart guy.
I'll be less kind than JoeBidenIsAPedo, because I really hate stupid people, especially conspiratards.
Not only has the Time of Death issue (Doctor's sig) has been explained here at least a dozen times in the last week, but if you're over 16 and don't know how it works, you are both willfully ignorant, and a moron.
I'm not trying to be insulting but people are insinuating things that they clearly have no knowledge of. Sorry it offends (I think my tone was pretty neutral but I'm willing to adjust) but when you see someone going a route that is so divergent from something you know a fuck of a lot about it's hard not to engage. Just remember I'm engaging for their sake, not trying to make a fool out of them. Just like any good lawyer would shoot you straight on whether you have a case or not.
You're right... Asking questions is fine. If the question was being asked in earnest then I apologize. I've seen this theory peddled in other ways on the site and I just got tired of the nonsense so I thought I'd address it with finality.
Hope you have a good day and I mean that
Edit: Wow the fact that you replied the way you did and now downvoted this and are following me around to down vote my posts is very telling
I've seen this particular cringe idea pop up more than once. Everything JoeBidenIsAPedo said is true. Simple procedure alone eats up quite a bit of time.
When you use words inaccurately and imprecisely you look like a sloppy, lazy, unreliable fool.
Which is far more of an insult than merely questioning what happened and going over it, like you'd have to do in court to a jury.
CONSPIRE means two or more people meet together to plan something. You conspired with your friend to get lunch. You conspire with your gf to plan a picnic at the beach.
KNOW WTF THE ACTUAL WORDS YOU'RE USING MEAN YOU VIRTUE SIGNALING HYPOCRITES.
Fabricating? Just asking questions on a fucking forum. Give me a fucking break. Yale scholars, right? Skull and bonesman too?
Dude, you're the one looking foolish here. "Conspire," per the dictionary, primarily refers to secret planning of harmful or illegal activities. It can also refer to harmless things, but rarely does. "Conspiracy" never means that in common use.
You might say, "We conspired to eat at Wendy's," if you were trying to sound clever. But if you said, "We engaged in a conspiracy to eat at Wendy's," people would discern your meaning but they would think you were really weird.
If the MSM were all falsely reporting that Floyd had died on the scene when in fact he died at the hospital, that would be an actual conspiracy by the common meaning. If they were accurately reporting his time of death, it's not a conspiracy.
But people are being very vague about "what is commonplace" and what not as if that dismisses the increasing likelyhood that Floyd did not die because of a chokehold but from a cardiac arrest, especially when you add the full arrest video of him not breathing as he was standing and the autopsy report.
Contrast that with the narrative the country was fed for months as riots were burning cities. I think people are right to be curious about the sequence of events.
It has been a long time since I looked at the autopsy but I do remember some red flags in it like his past medical history. I think it's far more likely his death was a combination of factors. Certainly Chauvin kneeling on him for 7 or 8 minutes didn't help. Just like being doped up on Fentanyl and who knows what else didn't help.
If you saw the police bodycam releases earlier this week, you'd see the ambulance attendant trying to resuscitate Floyd. EMT's cannot make a legal determination of death. A doctor does that.
I recall the toxicity report said the blood draw was ante-mortem; i think we'd need to depose the hospital staff involved to see what his state was in the hospital. was ante-mortem a technicality because he's been rolled in dead, blood was drawn and the declaration was made by a dr later, or were several attempts made, etc.
Ante-mortem is a procedural term that means "before declared dead." Basically, until the doctor says the patient is dead, and writes in the time of death, the body could be stiff and cold and still be "ante-mortem."
The exceptions would be when it's an ME certifying death. For example:
a. You find a six year old corpse in the woods tomorrow, the time of death is going to be date found (Medical Examiners' and Coroners' Handbook on Death Registration and Fetal Death Reporting).
or
b. A several hours dead corpse is taken to the ME. Time of death would be the ME's estimate, preceded by the notation 'Approx' (Medical Examiners' and Coroners' Handbook on Death Registration and Fetal Death Reporting).
In any case where someone is taken to a hospital, even if they are already obviously dead, time of death is when a Doctor pronounces death.
Asking uncomfortable questions and other kinds of conspiracy theory stinkin' thinkin' has recently been declared domestic terrorism by the FBI. Please report to their nearest field office for re-education and corrective programming. Why not sign up for some diversity and sensitivity training while you're there?
I wish the people so adamant about squashing any interest in the events after floyd was taken into the ambulance had the same level of energy to dismiss the conspiracy theory that caused riots and looting across the country.
Did George Floyd act like an annoying asshole, wasting the cops time? Absolutely.
No, I don't blame them for overdosing. It's his (George's) fault for taking the drugs. Drugs are bad!
Knee-on-the-neck dude however, should have been aware of the consequences of what he was doing, in light of the fact that Mr. Floyd was - at this point - in handcuffs and posed no danger to the cops.
He used excessive force despite Mr. Floyd's already being subdued, and did not release the pressure to his neck despite Mr. Floyd's repeated pleas. He kept his knee on his neck, cutting off, or severely limiting his oxygen, ultimately resulting in Mr. Floyd's demise.
I didn't say he lived for 45 minutes without a beating heart. Maybe they had a faint heartbeat, maybe it was an erratic heartbeat. I'm not a medic, I'm not familiar with the protocol. They're not gonna pronounce the man dead until his heart has 100% stopped beating and all attempts to revive him have failed.
Tell you what. I'll buy you a beer when your hero Derek Chauvin begins his 45-year stint.
I watched the full video. He certainly wasn't breathing when they put him into the ambulance. The ambulance guys immediately did CPR. The cops can claim that he was breathing, but there's no way to prove it.
Not totally from Drugs. You need to prove in a court of law that it was 100% from the drugs. The knee on the neck for a prolonged period can cause suffocation.
You'll have a hard job convincing a jury that was not a factor. It really makes no difference whether he died there on the road or later in the hospital. The point is he was suffering major trauma whilst being held down.
Again, good luck convincing the jury that he passed out just from drugs.
The kicker is: Chauvin and Floyd had a history and bad blood between them. All they need is to call up a few witnesses to testify that there is probable cause for malice/abusing his position of power, and it's case closed.
Chauvin had a long string of complaints against him, so this won't go in his favor either. His wife left him right after the Incedent, too. Essentially, he's a POS and nobody gives a fuck about him now.... No judge is going to put their reputation (or life) on the line by giving him a lenient sentence or showing him mercy.
It is standard that doctors pronounce time of death for recording purposes. As a matter of fact it's one of the only legal ways to do it.
It is commonplace that CPR is not initiated in a timely fashion due to provider error. I can show you studies with the amount of times a palpated pulse was read incorrectly and CPR was delayed unnecessarily. Even by doctors it is extremely common place (Greater than 30% of the time IIRC from the last time I read these studies 2 years ago)
It is also common practice when a scene is deemed unsafe or not conducive to performing CPR that a patient is moved to the ambulance before initiating CPR. The crowd, street side scene, and police presence would all lend themselves to this.
It is also commonplace that when a patient who presents viable is brought into the ER that resuscitation efforts are continued. This is especially common if certain interventions have not been performed yet such as intubation, drug administration, X ray of the chest, bilateral needle decompression in the evidence of trauma, etc etc. Even more commonplace when police are potentially the cause of the death, because providers are going to go to great lengths for a good outcome to protect their fellow responders.
All of this takes time, and we didn't mention transport time to ER, transfer from ambo to hospital, gurney to hospital bed, ongoing treatments, lab results, etc. There is so much more I could go into.
Bottom line don't look for a conspiracy where one obviously doesn't exist.
Bottom line, don't misuse the word "conspiracy". It's commonplace in language to know what a word actually means before using it as misuse will make you look like a tremendous fool and asshat.
I think what you want to say is there is no evidence Mr. Geroge wasn't dead before being pronounced dead (or DOA or whatever.)
What you're actually saying is "don't think this through", "if you don't know what I know you're a shameful pejorative word that I'm not even cogent enough to know or explain" and "valid questions to people who aren't in the industry or have my personal experience should be met with insult and shaming".
Which is a big fuck you to op, so I say a big fuck you back. Show a little respect.
Explain things without insulting people if you're such an "expert".
Whether something is "commonplace" in your personal experience doesn't fucking matter to someone trying to get to the bottom of an obviously false narrative which people DID conspire to create and perpetrate on the American people.
So there IS or iSN'T a conspiracy, NO MATTER WHERE ONE MIGHT LOOK FOR IT. You're trying to be such a slick insult dickwad that you don't even take time to define your terms and it makes you look ESPECIALLY lazy and hypocritical.
Whether or not there is evidence hither or yon matters very little when there is definite evidence of two or more people meeting in secret to either plan, execute, or not let a crisis go to waste - whether for good OR for evil is irrelevant to people conspiring to do so. It's a "conspiracy" by definition.
Don't be such a sucker if you're going to tell people not to be a sucker. It's commonplace where I come from to use words accurately, and precisely - that is, to use correct language. Neurolinguistic programming has you by the balls.
In which case I'm not sure how anybody would be expected to know all your arrogant procedural memorizations. Did he die on camera? When did he actually physically die? THAT'S WHAT OP IS ASKING, CAN YOU ANSWER IT? OR DO YOU JUST WANNA BE A DICK VIRTUE SIGNALING YOUR SMARTNESS?
And as imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, since you insulted OP I will insult you back, smart guy.
I'll be less kind than JoeBidenIsAPedo, because I really hate stupid people, especially conspiratards.
Not only has the Time of Death issue (Doctor's sig) has been explained here at least a dozen times in the last week, but if you're over 16 and don't know how it works, you are both willfully ignorant, and a moron.
Oh, and get your meds refilled.
I'm not trying to be insulting but people are insinuating things that they clearly have no knowledge of. Sorry it offends (I think my tone was pretty neutral but I'm willing to adjust) but when you see someone going a route that is so divergent from something you know a fuck of a lot about it's hard not to engage. Just remember I'm engaging for their sake, not trying to make a fool out of them. Just like any good lawyer would shoot you straight on whether you have a case or not.
You're right... Asking questions is fine. If the question was being asked in earnest then I apologize. I've seen this theory peddled in other ways on the site and I just got tired of the nonsense so I thought I'd address it with finality.
Hope you have a good day and I mean that
Edit: Wow the fact that you replied the way you did and now downvoted this and are following me around to down vote my posts is very telling
Step away from your device and go outside. You just typed a book report reply in anger and it's completely unwarranted.
I've seen this particular cringe idea pop up more than once. Everything JoeBidenIsAPedo said is true. Simple procedure alone eats up quite a bit of time.
^^^ This ×1000
Thanks for taking the time to type out how things actually work in reality. Some people are definitely fabricating a conspiracy where there is none.
again, DEFINE YOUR TERMS.
When you use words inaccurately and imprecisely you look like a sloppy, lazy, unreliable fool.
Which is far more of an insult than merely questioning what happened and going over it, like you'd have to do in court to a jury.
CONSPIRE means two or more people meet together to plan something. You conspired with your friend to get lunch. You conspire with your gf to plan a picnic at the beach.
KNOW WTF THE ACTUAL WORDS YOU'RE USING MEAN YOU VIRTUE SIGNALING HYPOCRITES.
Fabricating? Just asking questions on a fucking forum. Give me a fucking break. Yale scholars, right? Skull and bonesman too?
Dude, you're the one looking foolish here. "Conspire," per the dictionary, primarily refers to secret planning of harmful or illegal activities. It can also refer to harmless things, but rarely does. "Conspiracy" never means that in common use.
You might say, "We conspired to eat at Wendy's," if you were trying to sound clever. But if you said, "We engaged in a conspiracy to eat at Wendy's," people would discern your meaning but they would think you were really weird.
If the MSM were all falsely reporting that Floyd had died on the scene when in fact he died at the hospital, that would be an actual conspiracy by the common meaning. If they were accurately reporting his time of death, it's not a conspiracy.
There's several people repeatedly posting this 45 minute talking point as if it's some genius find. It's not. That's why it's a conspiracy.
Doctors pronounce a person dead. EMTs do not.
All of this.^^
But people are being very vague about "what is commonplace" and what not as if that dismisses the increasing likelyhood that Floyd did not die because of a chokehold but from a cardiac arrest, especially when you add the full arrest video of him not breathing as he was standing and the autopsy report.
Contrast that with the narrative the country was fed for months as riots were burning cities. I think people are right to be curious about the sequence of events.
I think you're going to need to get a refund on that degree from the 'Close Cover Before Striking' Medical School.
glad you said this. If I've learned anything from watching Grey's Anatomy it's that the time of death is called by a doctor at a hospital.
Does this information seem to match a cardiac arrest more than death by chokehold? IMO the autopsy report suggests that he was not choked to death.
It has been a long time since I looked at the autopsy but I do remember some red flags in it like his past medical history. I think it's far more likely his death was a combination of factors. Certainly Chauvin kneeling on him for 7 or 8 minutes didn't help. Just like being doped up on Fentanyl and who knows what else didn't help.
I'd like to see the ER account as well as the ambulance records.
If you saw the police bodycam releases earlier this week, you'd see the ambulance attendant trying to resuscitate Floyd. EMT's cannot make a legal determination of death. A doctor does that.
Officially pronouncing someone dead is not the same as official time of death.
Yes, it is. The official pronouncement IS the time of death.
Except he died at the hospital 30 minutes after they drew his blood.
they would declare him dead as soon as he arrived at the ER if he were dead.
No, they cannot. A resuscitation attempt must be made (there are exceptions) before a DOCTOR pronounces and then records the death.
I recall the toxicity report said the blood draw was ante-mortem; i think we'd need to depose the hospital staff involved to see what his state was in the hospital. was ante-mortem a technicality because he's been rolled in dead, blood was drawn and the declaration was made by a dr later, or were several attempts made, etc.
Ante-mortem is a procedural term that means "before declared dead." Basically, until the doctor says the patient is dead, and writes in the time of death, the body could be stiff and cold and still be "ante-mortem."
Time of death is when a Doctor pronounces death.
The exceptions would be when it's an ME certifying death. For example:
a. You find a six year old corpse in the woods tomorrow, the time of death is going to be date found (Medical Examiners' and Coroners' Handbook on Death Registration and Fetal Death Reporting).
or
b. A several hours dead corpse is taken to the ME. Time of death would be the ME's estimate, preceded by the notation 'Approx' (Medical Examiners' and Coroners' Handbook on Death Registration and Fetal Death Reporting).
In any case where someone is taken to a hospital, even if they are already obviously dead, time of death is when a Doctor pronounces death.
LIES.
NO ATTEMPT WAS MADE TO RESUSCITATE FLOYD BECAUSE HE WAS STILL BREATHING.
The EMT can't declare someone dead. Only a doctor can do that, and doctors don't ride in ambulances.
Asking uncomfortable questions and other kinds of conspiracy theory stinkin' thinkin' has recently been declared domestic terrorism by the FBI. Please report to their nearest field office for re-education and corrective programming. Why not sign up for some diversity and sensitivity training while you're there?
The liberal/BLM narrative has nothing to do with the facts. It has ever been thus.
I wish the people so adamant about squashing any interest in the events after floyd was taken into the ambulance had the same level of energy to dismiss the conspiracy theory that caused riots and looting across the country.
I guess it can be hard to decide who should be the winner when two very evil men fight each other.......
He was pronounced dead 45 minutes later. But he was not breathing, and I believe his heart had stopped when he was still in custody of the police.
What point are you trying to make here anyway?
Clearly the cops arresting him and the scumbag kneeling on his neck played a significant role in his death.
Did George Floyd act like an annoying asshole, wasting the cops time? Absolutely.
No, I don't blame them for overdosing. It's his (George's) fault for taking the drugs. Drugs are bad!
Knee-on-the-neck dude however, should have been aware of the consequences of what he was doing, in light of the fact that Mr. Floyd was - at this point - in handcuffs and posed no danger to the cops.
He used excessive force despite Mr. Floyd's already being subdued, and did not release the pressure to his neck despite Mr. Floyd's repeated pleas. He kept his knee on his neck, cutting off, or severely limiting his oxygen, ultimately resulting in Mr. Floyd's demise.
It's all on video, from multiple angles.
He'll get 20-30 years. Absolute minimum.
Ok, whatever man. You're worse than a liberal.
I didn't say he lived for 45 minutes without a beating heart. Maybe they had a faint heartbeat, maybe it was an erratic heartbeat. I'm not a medic, I'm not familiar with the protocol. They're not gonna pronounce the man dead until his heart has 100% stopped beating and all attempts to revive him have failed.
Tell you what. I'll buy you a beer when your hero Derek Chauvin begins his 45-year stint.
That he's a moron, obviously.
Where's your proof?
I watched the full video. He certainly wasn't breathing when they put him into the ambulance. The ambulance guys immediately did CPR. The cops can claim that he was breathing, but there's no way to prove it.
Watch the video.
LIAR
HE WAS BREATHING FINE.
HE WAS UNCONSCIOUS.
LIAR.
If his heart stopped beating they would have resuscitated him.
The cop told the family to tell Floyd his phone was in the car at the hospital.
HE WAS NOT DEAD WHEN THEY PUT HIM IN THE AMBULANCE. HE WAS NOT DEAS WHEN THEY DREW HIS BLOOD. HE DIED 30 MINUTES AFTEE THAT AT THE HOSPITAL.
FROM DRUGS.
Not totally from Drugs. You need to prove in a court of law that it was 100% from the drugs. The knee on the neck for a prolonged period can cause suffocation.
You'll have a hard job convincing a jury that was not a factor. It really makes no difference whether he died there on the road or later in the hospital. The point is he was suffering major trauma whilst being held down.
Again, good luck convincing the jury that he passed out just from drugs.
The kicker is: Chauvin and Floyd had a history and bad blood between them. All they need is to call up a few witnesses to testify that there is probable cause for malice/abusing his position of power, and it's case closed.
Chauvin had a long string of complaints against him, so this won't go in his favor either. His wife left him right after the Incedent, too. Essentially, he's a POS and nobody gives a fuck about him now.... No judge is going to put their reputation (or life) on the line by giving him a lenient sentence or showing him mercy.
Did you watch the video? Did you see the cop HOLDING HIS HAND? They did everything to save his life, tried ro deescalate and calm him down.