They have Narcan on hand when they do those studies. ER docs overdose extremely injured people on Fentanyl and it’s not all the unusual or that big of a deal. But again, they have Narcan and bags so deaths are extremely rare. The 40,000 people a year that OD on opiates don’t have it around.
Median blood level of overdoses in this study was 9.8. The meth in his system was very small. The Fentanyl in his system was a massive amount. Six 100 mcg patches is insane. Ask any doctor that doesn’t use opiates and none would put a single 100 mcg patch on without a built up tolerance. Any doctors here that can confirm (or refute) all of this?
Fentanyl concentrations ranged from 2.5 to 68 ng/mL (n = 66; median: 9.8 ng/mL)
That's a big range.
It just shows that it's highly dependent on an individual's tolerance to it.
Edit: Some were even below the quantifiable range... I'd like to see what someone who has knowledge on this thinks.
Also, is there even a way to determine posthumously what someone's tolerance to an opioid is? Opioid receptor count or something like long term damage somewhere? It's possible he OD'd on something he was selling (swallowed it when the cops came) but not actually using. (Though he did do other drugs.) IDK lots of questions. What about the stomach contents?
No way to no for sure post mortem. Even with tolerance the quality, co centration, and impurities found in street products have a huge range of therapeutic effects even with similar doses.
Couldn't find anything about stomach contents. Either way we may never know exactly what limit his body had, but, medically speaking he was certainly within the limits of overdose.
Comparing fentanyl to morphine is kinda apples and oranges.
Fentanyl Is Superior To Morphine for pain management. It is a synthetic opioid that is 80-100 times stronger than morphine. It can manage a patients pain at a therapeutic level without compromising breathing. The "equivalent" amount of morphine would have killed him for sure. But, that was comparing a patch (dermal absorption, much slower) vs orally taking morphine.
However, narcan is less at reversing fentanyl OD.
The cocktail of drugs he had in his system were working synergistically. The level to such that they potentiated one another is hard to tell at this point.
This is all before we take into account his pre existing heart condition.
So... how many licks does it take to get to the center of the tootsy-pop?... the world may never know.
The range of what’s lethal is wide, but not that wide. It’s kind of like, what’s the lethal range of number of gun shot wounds? Guy gets shot 47 times but he was dead after the third shot. Those really high numbers are either suicides or accidental ODs. Fentanyl is extremely powerful, which is irrelevant in medical settings because they give very small amounts and it’s pharmaceutical grade concentration. But some drug dealer isn’t paying attention and doesn’t cut his product enough or mix it up well enough and people die. There are tons of instances of this with articles that say “9 Fentanyl overdoses in Landon County,” and it’s because a drug dealer fucked up (they don’t want to kill their customers). This article is from yesterday:
My mother in law had those high-dosage morphine patches when she was dying of colon cancer. When she stayed at our house for hospice care, the doctor warned us not to administer the patches. My mother in law had to put them on herself because they can be fatal if you haven't built up a tolerance and even touching them was dangerous.
“People who are not being treated with fentanyl patches may be seriously harmed or may die if the sticky side of a patch touches their skin. Be careful not to allow the sticky side of the patch to touch anyone else's skin.”
Also: “ Fentanyl patches may cause serious or life-threatening breathing problems, especially during the first 24 to 72 hours of your treatment and any time your dose is increased.”
Holy shit! All right shills where you at? Where the fuck you at? Come tell us how "Joe Rogan basically explained" that he obviously got knee choked to death.
I used to feel bad for him and had some semblance of sympathy for BLM when we didn’t know the whole truth, but now I just feel kinda disgusted regarding the blatant lying and rioting and looting for the past 85 days like they don’t even know what they want they just destroy shit.
Bioavailability of different opiates is different. It’s not 1x to 1. Oral is also different than IV or other intakes. Saying 139 morphine pills is pretty meaningless and in nowhere close to the opiate receptor activation as fentanyl
The bottom chart is from Janssen, who makes Fentanyl patches, and provides that conversion chart for doctors switching patients from other opiates to Fentanyl. I could be misunderstanding your point though. The chart is oral morphine pills to fentanyl patches.
The conversion math is correct but its intended for therapeutic conversion. For our use here its kind of irrelevant. I made a detailed comment up the page explaining it a bit further.
You’re saying the therapeutic conversion, which is shown is not equivalent for the fatal dose conversion (which varies widely on tolerance as well)? Meaning, six 100mcg patches is equal to pain reduction of 139 oral morphine pills, but it doesn’t mean that those two things are equally lethal?
Few people know what a serious thing a 100mcg patch is, but everyone knows taking 139 painkillers is suicidal.
Also, assuming you have some expertise here, can you comment on the huge range of blood levels in overdoses (study I posted above)? If one 100mcg patch gives a blood level of 2.7, but can be fatal for an non-experienced user, how are there overdoses with a level of 68? Are those accidents or suicides? Is it possible to build up a tolerance whereby 20 isn’t fatal? 40?
Correct, and, a "fatal" dose range is wildy different from person to person even with pharmaceutical grade quality and consistency. Who knows what impurities that stuff is cut with. I've spoken with patients who overdosed taking a hit of the same size from the same bag of fentanyl, one time barely got em high, next time, boom, unconscious not breathing.
Where goerge REALLY fucked up was mixing it with other drugs. Fentanyl can cause respiratory distress and death when taken in high doses or when combined with other substances, especially alcohol.
Depending on the person and their intake levels a person could be at levels high enough to kill several people.
I've seen patients with a B.A.C. over .50 8 hours AFTER they stopped drinking who were walking and talking so well you'd never even guess they were intoxicated until you got close enough to smell them.
Could be suicides. Could also be old people who forgot they already put on on and kept adding them. Or forgot to take them off, ive seen that before too. We have to be very careful removing them even with gloves on. Usually the people who use patches to OD put em in their mouth and/or chew them up. Ive seen that several times.
Bottom line is that there are so many variables we don't know and can never be taken into account at this point we couldn't ever say for sure. And, that's all a jury needs... reasonable doubt.
but it doesn’t mean that those two things are equally lethal?
Essentially yes, the pharmacokinetics of how it interacts with your body may not scale the same.
You can get the same explosion from 1,000 tons of TNT or a 1KT nuclear weapon, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing.
Tolerance to the drug is at least partially a physical mechanism as you literally deplete your body of the neuroreceptors that interact with the drug.
it is possible for heavy users to regularly take doses that would kill you or I.
Additionally, there is a poorly understood genetic component. Some individuals (often redheads for whatever reason) have a resistance to opioid and opiate drugs almost 3x higher than the average population.
it works out to 139 15mg pills. Morphine pills are available in a wide range of dosages because doctors need flexibility because of ever increasing tolerance.
100mg is a good estimate for a recreational amount. So Floyd took 20x that, if OP's fentanyl to morphine equivalency is correct, though that's not exactly written in stone because of differences between the drugs, plus everyone reacts different.
All things considered, dude definitely took a shit ton of fentanyl. It was a factor. Plus heart disease, and meth.
I noticed it goes from ng/ml (which I assume is nanograms per milliliter of blood?) and switches on the second paper to mg/day (which I assume is milligrams per day) so I'm curious if this changes the amounts? I'm not criticizing, I just want to make sure the numbers are correct before I redpill my friends on this.
11/5.6 ng/ml is how much was in his blood. Next, 2.7 ng/ml is expected average blood level from 1 maximum strength patch. Next is the conversion from the makers of the patch for doctors switching patients from oral morphine (which is measured in mg) to Fentanyl patches (which is measured in mcg). Fentanyl is far more powerful, so you take extremely small amounts, which is why they publish these conversion charts. For example, Fentanyl lollipops are 200mcg. Morphine pills are typically 15 mg, which is 75x more than 200mcg.
The starting register for overdose deaths levels is 5ng/ml. The norfentanyl is metabolites he already processed before he died, and that's what killed him. The other fentanyl level of 11ng/ml is what was still in his blood that he died before processing. So on that alone, he had at least 3x the lethal dose in his system.
I'm not a chemist, but seems to me like opiates and uppers wouldn't mix very well. Seems like a very dangerous combo. One slows everything down, the other speeds it up.
Holy shit. That would kill even those with a high tolerance. He had a peaceful death despite what it looked like on camera. (If that conversion math is correct)
Charges were always going to be dropped, this was all about the publicity from that first edited video and the violence it could generate. Expect peak riots before and after election
Yes, but it metabolized from Fentanyl he took. I wish they reported how much was in his stomach undigested.
It says that (in their testing?) peak consciousness was lost at an average of 34 ng/mL.
There was also morphine in his urine though.
But ultimately, what probably killed him is the mix of uppers (meth & caffeine) and downers.
They have Narcan on hand when they do those studies. ER docs overdose extremely injured people on Fentanyl and it’s not all the unusual or that big of a deal. But again, they have Narcan and bags so deaths are extremely rare. The 40,000 people a year that OD on opiates don’t have it around.
Median blood level of overdoses in this study was 9.8. The meth in his system was very small. The Fentanyl in his system was a massive amount. Six 100 mcg patches is insane. Ask any doctor that doesn’t use opiates and none would put a single 100 mcg patch on without a built up tolerance. Any doctors here that can confirm (or refute) all of this?
https://academic.oup.com/jat/article/40/8/588/2445888
That's a big range.
It just shows that it's highly dependent on an individual's tolerance to it.
Edit: Some were even below the quantifiable range... I'd like to see what someone who has knowledge on this thinks.
Also, is there even a way to determine posthumously what someone's tolerance to an opioid is? Opioid receptor count or something like long term damage somewhere? It's possible he OD'd on something he was selling (swallowed it when the cops came) but not actually using. (Though he did do other drugs.) IDK lots of questions. What about the stomach contents?
No way to no for sure post mortem. Even with tolerance the quality, co centration, and impurities found in street products have a huge range of therapeutic effects even with similar doses.
Couldn't find anything about stomach contents. Either way we may never know exactly what limit his body had, but, medically speaking he was certainly within the limits of overdose.
Comparing fentanyl to morphine is kinda apples and oranges.
Fentanyl Is Superior To Morphine for pain management. It is a synthetic opioid that is 80-100 times stronger than morphine. It can manage a patients pain at a therapeutic level without compromising breathing. The "equivalent" amount of morphine would have killed him for sure. But, that was comparing a patch (dermal absorption, much slower) vs orally taking morphine.
However, narcan is less at reversing fentanyl OD.
The cocktail of drugs he had in his system were working synergistically. The level to such that they potentiated one another is hard to tell at this point.
This is all before we take into account his pre existing heart condition.
So... how many licks does it take to get to the center of the tootsy-pop?... the world may never know.
The range of what’s lethal is wide, but not that wide. It’s kind of like, what’s the lethal range of number of gun shot wounds? Guy gets shot 47 times but he was dead after the third shot. Those really high numbers are either suicides or accidental ODs. Fentanyl is extremely powerful, which is irrelevant in medical settings because they give very small amounts and it’s pharmaceutical grade concentration. But some drug dealer isn’t paying attention and doesn’t cut his product enough or mix it up well enough and people die. There are tons of instances of this with articles that say “9 Fentanyl overdoses in Landon County,” and it’s because a drug dealer fucked up (they don’t want to kill their customers). This article is from yesterday:
he has 86 ng/ml of free morphine in his body.
This is where all the fentanyl metabolite came from.
That's crazy.
That's almost enough to kill you outright alone, and he also has a bunch of unmetabolized fent leftover, on top of meth, weed, and amphetamines
Come on guys, lets focus on the positive. George Floyd has been drug free now for almost 3 months.
Oof.
Yep. Drugs are no longer rotting away at his life.
My mother in law had those high-dosage morphine patches when she was dying of colon cancer. When she stayed at our house for hospice care, the doctor warned us not to administer the patches. My mother in law had to put them on herself because they can be fatal if you haven't built up a tolerance and even touching them was dangerous.
“People who are not being treated with fentanyl patches may be seriously harmed or may die if the sticky side of a patch touches their skin. Be careful not to allow the sticky side of the patch to touch anyone else's skin.”
https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/meds/a601202.html
Also: “ Fentanyl patches may cause serious or life-threatening breathing problems, especially during the first 24 to 72 hours of your treatment and any time your dose is increased.”
That's crazy information about the patches. Sorry for your loss.
Chinese fentanyl - again CHYNA
Exactly this. Not a doctor. Not a pharmacist. Not a pharmaceutical company UNREGULATED CHINESE STREET DRUGS.
Apparently George Floyd did
whatshisname KeK
I bet he tried to swallow a bag he was selling to keep from going back to jail.
Holy shit! All right shills where you at? Where the fuck you at? Come tell us how "Joe Rogan basically explained" that he obviously got knee choked to death.
Fucking Rogan. The guy isn't nearly as smart as he thinks he is, and when he said that he knew it wasn't true.
I used to feel bad for him and had some semblance of sympathy for BLM when we didn’t know the whole truth, but now I just feel kinda disgusted regarding the blatant lying and rioting and looting for the past 85 days like they don’t even know what they want they just destroy shit.
tHatS oK tHeY iNsUrED
They want to destroy what they dont want of others shit You cant have it
Big riots inbound when that DA say, "Charges Dropped"
Bioavailability of different opiates is different. It’s not 1x to 1. Oral is also different than IV or other intakes. Saying 139 morphine pills is pretty meaningless and in nowhere close to the opiate receptor activation as fentanyl
The bottom chart is from Janssen, who makes Fentanyl patches, and provides that conversion chart for doctors switching patients from other opiates to Fentanyl. I could be misunderstanding your point though. The chart is oral morphine pills to fentanyl patches.
The conversion math is correct but its intended for therapeutic conversion. For our use here its kind of irrelevant. I made a detailed comment up the page explaining it a bit further.
You’re saying the therapeutic conversion, which is shown is not equivalent for the fatal dose conversion (which varies widely on tolerance as well)? Meaning, six 100mcg patches is equal to pain reduction of 139 oral morphine pills, but it doesn’t mean that those two things are equally lethal?
Few people know what a serious thing a 100mcg patch is, but everyone knows taking 139 painkillers is suicidal.
Also, assuming you have some expertise here, can you comment on the huge range of blood levels in overdoses (study I posted above)? If one 100mcg patch gives a blood level of 2.7, but can be fatal for an non-experienced user, how are there overdoses with a level of 68? Are those accidents or suicides? Is it possible to build up a tolerance whereby 20 isn’t fatal? 40?
Correct, and, a "fatal" dose range is wildy different from person to person even with pharmaceutical grade quality and consistency. Who knows what impurities that stuff is cut with. I've spoken with patients who overdosed taking a hit of the same size from the same bag of fentanyl, one time barely got em high, next time, boom, unconscious not breathing.
Where goerge REALLY fucked up was mixing it with other drugs. Fentanyl can cause respiratory distress and death when taken in high doses or when combined with other substances, especially alcohol.
Depending on the person and their intake levels a person could be at levels high enough to kill several people.
I've seen patients with a B.A.C. over .50 8 hours AFTER they stopped drinking who were walking and talking so well you'd never even guess they were intoxicated until you got close enough to smell them.
Could be suicides. Could also be old people who forgot they already put on on and kept adding them. Or forgot to take them off, ive seen that before too. We have to be very careful removing them even with gloves on. Usually the people who use patches to OD put em in their mouth and/or chew them up. Ive seen that several times.
Bottom line is that there are so many variables we don't know and can never be taken into account at this point we couldn't ever say for sure. And, that's all a jury needs... reasonable doubt.
Really appreciate you taking the time to write that and help me understand all this better. Thank you!
no problem fren.
Essentially yes, the pharmacokinetics of how it interacts with your body may not scale the same.
You can get the same explosion from 1,000 tons of TNT or a 1KT nuclear weapon, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing.
Tolerance to the drug is at least partially a physical mechanism as you literally deplete your body of the neuroreceptors that interact with the drug.
it is possible for heavy users to regularly take doses that would kill you or I.
Additionally, there is a poorly understood genetic component. Some individuals (often redheads for whatever reason) have a resistance to opioid and opiate drugs almost 3x higher than the average population.
Chauvin goes to trial
Defense attorneys prove that Floyd had no neck injuries, was high af and overdosed, was not murdered
Chauvin walks
Media reports it as an evil white murderer cop getting off scot free after killing an innocent black man
America burns again right before the election
Not trying to nitpick, but I can't seem to figure out how you are determining that 2,088mg is 139 pills. Where does it say the number of mg per pill?
it works out to 139 15mg pills. Morphine pills are available in a wide range of dosages because doctors need flexibility because of ever increasing tolerance.
100mg is a good estimate for a recreational amount. So Floyd took 20x that, if OP's fentanyl to morphine equivalency is correct, though that's not exactly written in stone because of differences between the drugs, plus everyone reacts different.
All things considered, dude definitely took a shit ton of fentanyl. It was a factor. Plus heart disease, and meth.
https://youtu.be/RFlCD5CYAcU
TheyDidntDoTheMath
The average of 1.9 and 3.8 is 2.85. Pick between 2.8 and 2.9, but why use 2.7?
That’s true. Maybe someone will fix it or fact checker will say “mostly false”
Snopes can save the day!!
"I'm not that kind of guy, man!"
-Quote from that kind of guy, man.
I noticed it goes from ng/ml (which I assume is nanograms per milliliter of blood?) and switches on the second paper to mg/day (which I assume is milligrams per day) so I'm curious if this changes the amounts? I'm not criticizing, I just want to make sure the numbers are correct before I redpill my friends on this.
11/5.6 ng/ml is how much was in his blood. Next, 2.7 ng/ml is expected average blood level from 1 maximum strength patch. Next is the conversion from the makers of the patch for doctors switching patients from oral morphine (which is measured in mg) to Fentanyl patches (which is measured in mcg). Fentanyl is far more powerful, so you take extremely small amounts, which is why they publish these conversion charts. For example, Fentanyl lollipops are 200mcg. Morphine pills are typically 15 mg, which is 75x more than 200mcg.
Thank you for the follow up ☺️
The starting register for overdose deaths levels is 5ng/ml. The norfentanyl is metabolites he already processed before he died, and that's what killed him. The other fentanyl level of 11ng/ml is what was still in his blood that he died before processing. So on that alone, he had at least 3x the lethal dose in his system.
I'm not a chemist, but seems to me like opiates and uppers wouldn't mix very well. Seems like a very dangerous combo. One slows everything down, the other speeds it up.
At a glance, I'm not sure the ng/mcg/mg conversions have all been done correctly
Holy shit. That would kill even those with a high tolerance. He had a peaceful death despite what it looked like on camera. (If that conversion math is correct)
Keep in mind that respiratory depression is a dangerous side effect of opioids. He likely actually couldn’t breathe due to the fentanyl.
YeAH bUt CHynESe gEnERics VarY uP To 25%¡
Charges were always going to be dropped, this was all about the publicity from that first edited video and the violence it could generate. Expect peak riots before and after election