"Without God, everything is permitted" Voltaire
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False. Cite examples.
Here you go:
Deuteronomy 13:6-10 New International Version
Emphasis added.
u/Melthesender45: Quran gives death to people that insult Islam. (Random people, that is. See https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/insulters-islam.aspx)
u/Italians_Invented_2A claims “So does the Old Testament.” (Known to Jews as the “Tanakh.”)
u/Italians_Invented_2A is challenged by u/Bluestorm83 for evidence that the Tanakh gives death to (random) people that insult Judaism.
u/Italians_Invented_2A responds not with a passage from the Tanakh that gives death to (random) people that insult Judaism, but rather with a passage that gives death specifically to apostate Jews who entice faithful Jews to apostatize from Judaism and to convert to paganism.
u/Italians_Invented_2A after a more careful reading of the passage you attempted to cite as evidence that the Tanakh gives death to (random) people that insult Judaism, can you now see how that passage is only applicable to the very specific case of apostate Jews who attempt to entice faithful Jews to apostatize from Judaism and to convert to paganism?
Will you count your straw man argument as a victory, or will you do the honest thing and concede defeat?
In light of the fact that the passage you cited does nothing to prove your position that the Tanakh gives death to (random) people who insult Judaism (as Islam actually does), will you now reconsider your position?
I shall not do that.
I will instead refer you to my new answer here and declare that u/Bluestorm83 has been BTFO
This is not about those who insult God, it is about Jews who seek to replace the worship of Jehovah, Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, with the worship of the pagan gods of the nations around them, the pagan gods who require human sacrifices, CHILD sacrifices.
You have supposed to provide proof. Instead, you have merely showed that the God of the Old Testament would be right here, among us, calling for the deaths of every child molesting, adrenochrome using leftist today. Indeed, He will judge them. Blessed be the name of the Lord my God.
Fucking hell, talking to a religious zealot is worse than talking to a NPC and trying to convince him that Orange Man is not bad.
I cited a passage of the Bible where God orders you to fucking murder your own family for apostasy. Oh, but I suppose that is completely different from insulting God, is it? So one can curse the name of God and that's fine, but if they mention other gods then suddenly it's murder time. That's laughable. Honestly, pathetic to have this amount of intellectual dishonesty. And why did you bring up child molesters? In your fantasy world that verse of the Bible refers to child molesters? Well, it's a shame that the Bible doesn't say a word against pedophilia, especially because marrying 13 years old was normal at the time.
But hey, you want to play semantics?
Then let's read Leviticus 24:
English Standard Version
New Revised Standard Version Bible: Anglicized Edition
And talking to an anti-theist zealot is like punching myself in the balls. But here I go.
"If they mention other gods-" Cutting you off. No, from your own verse, if they come to you in secret to entice you into the worship of other gods. Stop with the strawmen. "Has God TRULY said you can't eat from ANY of the trees of the garden?" If you can't converse based on what was actually said, then YOU'RE the one with the intellectual dishonesty.
Not murder, putting to death. Once again, CONTEXT. At the point Deuteronomy was written, and indeed for a very long time, at the very least until the coronation of King Saul, Old Testament Israel was a Theocracy. The Law of God was the only law. If God said "put these people to death," that's not murder, that's lawful judgement. You can disagree with it, but to miscategorize it is again intellectual dishonesty. "9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people." Huh, the hands of all the people, eh? That sounds a lot like a thing carried out by the judgment of the entire community.
Did I say that the verse referred to Child Molesters? I don't think I did, but you don't have a great record of looking at words and judging them by what they say, so let's go down this rabbit hole. First, you say that marrying 13 year olds was normal at the time. Source? Please? Besides your own bias against the Bible? Explaining my reasoning: The God who puts people to death for Fornication and for babies being burned in statues of Molech is PROBABLY against Rape, too. In fact, look at what was done to the prince who raped Dinah, I believe her name was, and his ENTIRE PEOPLE. It wasn't pretty. This is also the same God who was later Jesus and talked about people who led children astray being better off if they had a millstone tied around their necks and been cast into the sea. But SURE, your insistence that people married 13 year olds without any proof of the matter all the time means that God's just peachy keen with Child Molesters.
Okay, into Leviticus here. Blasphemy is NOT simple insult. It is to curse. Not "Fuck" or "Shit" or "Hell," modern connotation of cursing, but Biblical Definition of cursing, being "A curse upon," "May harm befall," or "May he be Damned to hell." To Blaspheme God is to declare a curse upon God. To Accuse God of being Sinful, of doing Unjustly, to attempt to say that God is actually EVIL, and deserving of punishment. Christ backs this up, declaring that Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, in the New Testament, by the way. And yeah, this seems pretty serious, and heavy handed. By my own Mortal Reasoning, it is very harsh. But again, Israel at this point was a Theocracy, and this judgment was carried out by the people as a corporate body, and it is not something that an individual was qualified or even ALLOWED, as described by the body of the verses themselves, to carry out. EVERYONE who heard the occasion had to be there. From which I get the implication that if there were not a large consensus, "All the people," this would not be done.
And indeed, again Context is important. This was in response to a specific instance. The son of Shelomith, of the Tribe of Dan, a half Egyptian went out into the camp and had a public disturbance wherein he fought against an Israelite Man and publicly blasphemed and cursed the name of the Lord. And they brought him before Moses, and Moses went and prayed, and God prescribed this punishment for blasphemy. And while God was at it, he set down a bunch of prescribed punishments for crimes. The reason being to prevent others from doing these things.
And God caps the lesson by presenting a lesson in Equality Under the Law, by the way. Saying that Israel is to have ONE code of laws, applied equally to Israelites and others in the land. This is the Lex Taleonis, the Eye for an Eye, which established basic concepts of legal fairness that eventually grew into the values our nation was founded on.
But back onto the topic: Israel 3000 years ago: I say to an Israelite, "Eh, I don't care what your god says, everyone has their own god," he may insult me, slap me, give me a lesson in his theology, but he has no legal basis to bring me before All the People and have me stoned. Even if I scream that in the market place, I'll probably just be run out of town. Israel TODAY: I go on national Israeli TV and declare that the God of the Jews is actually the Devil: I get my show cancelled. But ISLAMIC COUNTRIES, TODAY: I say "Allah isn't the only true god," and I get my fucking head cut off. I am caught praying to The Father in the name of the Son, I get my fucking head cut off. I draw a picture of Mohammad IN HEAVEN, and I get my fucking head cut off. Do NOT equate the Mohammadan Cult with the Pre-Christ laws of the Covenant People.
It’s unfortunate that I’ve seen your type of response a thousand times when someone points out some curiously aggressive aspects of the Bible.
You don’t dig into the premise and try to sort it out. You run and hide. He didn’t bring up an insult leading to death. Only how good Christians should kill their own family and everyone else should that person try to get that good Christian to convert.
And you know what’s even worse? The fact you will make up some bullshit about that’s not the KJV Bible and not the NEW testament so it’s not important.
Except even worse than that is maybe the Old Testament is right and if we were fighting for God the way it was originally intended maybe things would be a bit better around here. Maybe the neutering of the aggression of the Bible is a problem. But instead of getting into it — granted this is online so who cares but still — just clutch your book and disregard what this other person says because your local groupthink doesn’t like the challenge.
Comment that prompted his response: "Because you can insult the truth because truth doesn't change. However lies can not stand being probed they fall apart if you do. Why the Quran gives death to people that insult islam." from Melthesender45.
His response: "So does the Old Testament."
He most certainly DID bring up insult leading to death. Jumping into a conversation half way without knowing where it originated makes you look ignorant.
I NEVER said that's not the KJV. I NEVER said it wasn't the new testament. Who the HELL are you responding to?
You didn't even read what I said, and you accuse me of hiding, of groupthink? No offense, but fuck you, friend. If you want to have a conversation, reply to what I said, not some strawman you build.