I'm sorry, I know Christianity and Catholicism are well-established "as a new religion" and it's hard to see outside of it all, but none of what you are trying to tell me is actually backed up by the Bible as a whole. There is nothing at all in the account of Pentecost saying "throw off all of the ways of God". Paul says a lot of things, many of which are nice, but Peter warns in his second epistle, against following those "who twist his words to their own destruction." God would not send a single man other than His Son to change His whole plan for us. And even Jesus did not alter it much, He adhered to His Father's laws, and told others to do the same. The Bible should not contradict itself, and we must give Jesus primacy over any other humans in it. Go back and read the gospels, asking God to give you an open heart. If you had only Jesus's word to go by, and not the epistles, what do they honestly say? What would you truly believe?

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but it breaks my heart to hear it said that the old -- God's divine Order -- was to be burned, when Jesus himself in Matt 5:17-20 says this:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The Apostles were men of Israel from birth and by ingrained culture, and there is mention of them still attending the temple and telling new converts that Moses was taught in synagogues every Sabbath (for them to learn the rest of God's ways). There is no mention of massive change in their religious habits. If you are to believe this did happen, if God did intend this, we should have proof of this drastic shift from God's ways, in Jesus's words and actions. Not "no proof they continued" as proof they stopped. And if the Apostles or any man had rejected the old laws, without Jesus telling them to.... How would they not be in the wrong?

Yes, Israel as a country was overthrown and scattered because men had corrupted it so much that God could not stand the sight of it anymore. There is currently no temple, so it is true that the laws involving that building simply cannot be followed for now. But God has promised that those sacrifices will take place again at a new temple in His future kingdom (apart from the sacrifice of the lamb whose role is now eternally fulfilled by Jesus), quite literally because the act pleases Him. The laws aren't dead, and you say as much, but ask yourself how they are then alive if we don't follow them as Jesus commanded us to.

One last point: your analogy of how a graft works is wrong, and I really hate to say it but nonsensical. A graft in the literal sense is a new branch added to an existing tree. If you burn the existing tree, won't the added branch die? It doesn't have its own roots, its own life separate from the rest. A gardener would never bother to graft onto a diseased plant, because the new branch would fail to thrive too. Christianity is not meant to be a stand-alone religion, separated from the Torah. Jesus uses this analogy for a reason, as He always does in His teachings. And there is no way He wouldn't have told us clearly Himself, if we were meant to discard everything that came before Him.

The Bible-sourced truth is, He preached the exact opposite, told us to follow His Father's commandments, then inscribed those "old laws" directly into our hearts, gave us the very spirit of God as our guide, and told us to cling to His ways.

I'm sorry, I know Christianity and Catholicism are well-established "as a new religion" and it's hard to see outside of it all, but none of what you are trying to tell me is actually backed up by the Bible as a whole. There is nothing at all in the account of Pentecost saying "throw off all of the ways of God". Paul says a lot of things, many of which are nice, but Peter warns in his second epistle, against following those "who twist his words to their own destruction." God would not send a single man other than His Son to change His whole plan for us. And even Jesus did not alter it much, He adhered to His Father's laws, and told others to do the same. The Bible should not contradict itself, and we must give Jesus primacy over any other humans in it. Go back and read the gospels, asking God to give you an open heart. If you had only Jesus's word to go by, and not the epistles, what do they honestly say? What would you truly believe?

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but it breaks my heart to hear it said that the old -- God's divine Order -- was to be burned, when Jesus himself in Matt 5:17-20 says this:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The Apostles were men of Israel from birth and by ingrained culture, and there is mention of them still attending the temple and telling new converts that Moses was taught in synagogues every Sabbath (for them to learn the rest of God's ways). There is no mention of massive change in their religious habits. If you are to believe this did happen, if God did intend this, we should have proof of this drastic shift from God's ways, in Jesus's words and actions. Not "no proof they continued" as proof they stopped. And if the Apostles or any man had rejected the old laws, without Jesus telling them to.... How would they not be in the wrong?

Yes, Israel as a country was overthrown and scattered because men had corrupted it so much that God could not stand the sight of it anymore. There is currently no temple, so it is true that the laws involving that building simply cannot be followed for now. But God has promised that those sacrifices will take place again at a new temple in His future kingdom (apart from the sacrifice of the lamb whose role is now eternally fulfilled by Jesus), quite literally because the act pleases Him. The laws aren't dead, and you say as much, but ask yourself how they are then alive if we don't follow them as Jesus commanded us to.

One last point: your analogy of how a graft works is wrong, and I really hate to say it but nonsensical. A graft in the literal sense is a new branch added to an existing tree. If you burn the existing tree, won't the added branch die? It doesn't have its own roots, its own life separate from the rest. A gardener would never bother to graft onto a diseased plant, because the new branch would fail to thrive too. Christianity is not meant to be a stand-alone religion, separated from Torah Judaism. Jesus uses this analogy for a reason, as He always does in His teachings. And there is no way He wouldn't have told us clearly Himself, if we were meant to discard everything that came before Him.

The Bible-sourced truth is, He preached the exact opposite, told us to follow His Father's commandments, then inscribed those "old laws" directly into our hearts, gave us the very spirit of God as our guide, and told us to cling to His ways.

I'm sorry, I know Christianity and Catholicism are well-established "as a new religion" and it's hard to see outside of it all, but none of what you are trying to tell me is actually backed up by the Bible as a whole. There is nothing at all in the account of Pentecost saying "throw off all of the ways of God". Paul says a lot of things, many of which are nice, but Peter warns in his second epistle, against following those "who twist his words to their own destruction." God would not send a single man other than His Son to change His whole plan for us. And even Jesus did not alter it much, He adhered to His Father's laws, and told others to do the same. The Bible should not contradict itself, and we must give Jesus primacy over any other humans in it. Go back and read the gospels, asking God to give you an open heart. If you had only Jesus's word to go by, and not the epistles, what do they honestly say? What would you truly believe?

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but it breaks my heart to hear it said that the old -- God's divine Order -- was to be burned, when Jesus himself in Matt 5:17-20 says this:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The Apostles were men of Israel from birth and by ingrained culture, and there is mention of them still attending the temple and telling new converts that Moses was taught in synagogues (for them to learn the rest of God's ways). There is no mention of massive change in their religious habits. If you are to believe this did happen, if God did intend this, we should have proof of this drastic shift from God's ways, in Jesus's words and actions. Not "no proof they continued" as proof they stopped. And if the Apostles had rejected the old laws, without Jesus telling them to.... How would they not be in the wrong?

Yes, Israel as a country was overthrown and scattered because men had corrupted it so much that God could not stand the sight of it anymore. There is currently no temple, so it is true that the laws involving that building simply cannot be followed for now, but God has promised that those sacrifices will take place again at a new temple in His future kingdom (apart from the sacrifice of the lamb whose role is now eternally fulfilled by Jesus), quite literally because the act pleases Him. The laws aren't dead, and you say as much, but ask yourself how they are then alive if we don't follow them as Jesus commanded us to?

One last point: your analogy of how a graft works is wrong, and I really hate to say it but nonsensical. A graft in the literal sense is a new branch added to an existing tree. If you burn the existing tree, won't the added branch die? It doesn't have its own roots, its own life separate from the rest. A gardener would never bother to graft onto a diseased plant, because the new branch would fail to thrive too. Christianity is not meant to be a stand-alone religion, separated from Torah Judaism. Jesus uses this analogy for a reason, as He always does in His teachings. And there is no way He wouldn't have told us clearly Himself, if we were meant to discard everything that came before Him.

The Bible-sourced truth is, He preached the exact opposite, told us to follow His Father's commandments, then inscribed those "old laws" directly into our hearts, gave us the very spirit of God as our guide, and told us to cling to His ways.

I'm sorry, I know Christianity and Catholicism are well-established "as a new religion" and it's hard to see outside of it all, but none of what you are trying to tell me is actually backed up by the Bible as a whole. There is nothing at all in the account of Pentecost saying "throw off all of the ways of God". Paul says a lot of things, many of which are nice, but Peter warns in his second epistle, against following those "who twist his words to their own destruction." God would not send a single man other than His Son to change His whole plan for us. And even Jesus did not alter it much, He adhered to His Father's laws, and told others to do the same. The Bible should not contradict itself, and we must give Jesus primacy over any other humans in it. Go back and read the gospels, asking God to give you an open heart. If you had only Jesus's word to go by, and not the epistles, what do they honestly say? What would you truly believe?

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but it breaks my heart to hear it said that the old -- God's divine Order -- was to be burned, when Jesus himself in Matt 5:17-20 says this:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The Apostles were men of Israel from birth and by ingrained culture, and there is mention of them still attending the temple and telling new converts that Moses was taught in synagogues (for them to learn the rest of God's ways). There is no mention of massive change in their religious habits. If you are to believe this did happen, if God did intend this, we should have proof of this drastic shift from God's ways, in Jesus's words and actions. Not "no proof they continued" as proof they stopped. And if the Apostles had rejected the old laws, without Jesus telling them to.... How would they not be in the wrong?

Yes, Israel as a country was overthrown and scattered because men had corrupted it so much that God could not stand the sight of it anymore. There is currently no temple, so it is true that the laws involving that building simply cannot be followed for now, but God has promised that those sacrifices will take place again at a new temple in His future kingdom (apart from the sacrifice of the lamb whose role is now eternally fulfilled by Jesus), quite literally because the act pleases Him. The laws aren't dead, and you say as much, but ask yourself how they are then alive if we don't follow them as Jesus commanded us to?

One last point: your analogy of how a graft works is wrong, and I really hate to say it but nonsensical. A graft in the literal sense is a new branch added to an existing tree. If you burn the existing tree, won't the added branch die? It doesn't have its own roots, its own life separate from the rest. A gardener would never bother to graft onto a diseased plant, because the new branch would fail to thrive too. Christianity is not meant to be a stand-alone religion. Jesus uses this analogy for a reason, as He always does in His teachings. And there is no way He wouldn't have told us clearly Himself, if we were meant to discard everything that came before Him.

The Bible-sourced truth is, He preached the exact opposite, told us to follow His Father's commandments, then inscribed those "old laws" directly into our hearts, gave us the very spirit of God as our guide, and told us to cling to His ways.

I'm sorry, I know Christianity and Catholicism are well-established "as a new religion" and it's hard to see outside of it all, but none of what you are trying to tell me is actually backed up by the Bible as a whole. There is nothing at all in the account of Pentecost saying "throw off all of the ways of God". Paul says a lot of things, many of which are nice, but Peter warns in his second epistle, against following those "who twist his words to their own destruction." God would not send a single man other than His Son to change His whole plan for us. And even Jesus did not alter it much, He adhered to His Father's laws, and told others to do the same. The Bible should not contradict itself, and we must give Jesus primacy over any other humans in it. Go back and read the gospels, asking God to give you an open heart. If you had only Jesus's word to go by, and not the epistles, what do they honestly say? What would you truly believe?

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but it breaks my heart to hear it said that the old -- God's divine Order -- was to be burned, when Jesus himself in Matt 5:17-20 says this:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The Apostles were men of Israel from birth and by ingrained culture, and there is mention of them still attending the temple and telling new converts that Moses was taught in synagogues (for them to learn the rest of God's ways). There is no mention of massive change in their religious habits. If you are to believe this did happen, if God did intend this, we should have proof of this drastic shift from God's ways, in Jesus's words and actions. Not "no proof they continued" as proof they stopped. And if the Apostles had rejected the old laws, without Jesus telling them to.... How would they not be in the wrong?

Yes, Israel as a country was overthrown and scattered because men had corrupted it so much that God could not stand the sight of it anymore. There is currently no temple, so it is true that the laws involving that building simply cannot be followed for now, but God has promised that those sacrifices will take place again at a new temple in His future kingdom (apart from the sacrifice of the lamb whose role is now eternally fulfilled by Jesus), quite literally because the act pleases Him. The laws aren't dead, and you say as much, but ask yourself how they are then alive if we don't follow them as Jesus commanded us to?

One last point: your analogy of how a graft works is wrong, and I really hate to say it but nonsensical. A graft in the literal sense is a new branch added to an existing tree. If you burn the existing tree, won't the added branch die? It doesn't have its own roots, its own life separate from the rest. A gardener would never bother to graft onto a diseased plant, because the new branch would fail to thrive too. Christianity is not meant to be a stand-alone religion. Jesus uses this analogy for a reason, as He always does in His teachings. And there is no way He wouldn't have told us clearly Himself, if we were meant to discard everything that came before Him.

The Bible-sourced truth is, He preached the exact opposite, then inscribed those "old laws" into our hearts, gave us the very spirit of God as our guide, and told us to cling to His ways.

I'm sorry, I know Christianity and Catholicism are well-established "as a new religion" and it's hard to see outside of it all, but none of what you are trying to tell me is actually backed up by the Bible as a whole. There is nothing at all in the account of Pentecost saying "throw off all of the ways of God". Paul says a lot of things, many of which are nice, but Peter warns in his second epistle, against following those "who twist his words to their own destruction." God would not send a single man other than His Son to change His whole plan for us. And even Jesus did not alter it much, He adhered to His Father's laws, and told others to do the same. The Bible should not contradict itself, and we must give Jesus primacy over any other humans in it. Go back and read the gospels, asking God to give you an open heart. If you had only Jesus's word to go by, and not the epistles, what do they honestly say? What would you truly believe?

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but it breaks my heart to hear it said that the old -- God's divine Order -- was to be burned, when Jesus himself in Matt 5:17-20 says this:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The Apostles were men of Israel from birth and by ingrained culture, and there is mention of them still attending the temple and telling new converts that Moses was taught in synagogues (for them to learn the rest of God's ways). There is no mention of massive change in their religious habits, If you are to believe this did happen, if God did inted this, you should have proof of this drastic shift from God's ways, and in their lives. Not "no proof they continued" as proof they stopped. Yes, Israel as a country was overthrown and scattered because men had corrupted it so much that God could not stand the sight of it anymore. There is currently no temple, so it is true that the laws involving that building simply cannot be followed for now, but God has promised that those sacrifices will take place again at a new temple in His future kingdom (apart from the sacrifice of the lamb whose role is now eternally fulfilled by Jesus), quite literally because the act pleases Him. The laws aren't dead, you say as much, but ask yourself how they are then alive if we don't follow them as Jesus commanded us to?

One last point: your analogy of how a graft works is wrong, and I really hate to say it but nonsensical. A graft in the literal sense is a new branch added to an existing tree. If you burn the existing tree, won't the added branch die? It doesn't have its own roots, its own life separate from the rest. A gardener would never bother to graft onto a diseased plant, because the new branch would fail to thrive too. Christianity is not meant to be a stand-alone religion. Jesus uses this analogy for a reason, as He always does in His teachings. And there is no way He wouldn't have told us clearly Himself, if we were meant to discard everything that came before Him.

Truth is, He preached the exact opposite, then inscribed those "old laws" into our hearts, gave us the very spirit of God as our guide, and told us to cling to His ways.