Paul Hebert and austral in Buenos Aires. jd/bcl Law review is great albeit not indicative of much except an abundance of spare time.
Do you have a different take on 12th amendment v electoral count act?
This comment thread is incorrect about the gohmert suit and what it meant and pence’s response.
The suit asked for two things - 1) a ruling that the electoral count act of 1887 is unconstitutional attempt to alter the constitutionally established electoral college counting dispute resolution procedures in the 12th amendment.
- an injunction ordering pence to follow the 12th amendment procedure vs the electoral count act procedure.
The 12th amendment rules
-
have no role for the senate (besides pence’s role)
-
have no objection procedure that requires a house representative and senators to object and then get 2 hours of debate
-
vest NO authority in the house and senate voting on how to resolve
Senate has no authority to speak on pres electors as per the 12th amendment. Pence can make this all so much simpler if he follows the constitution and not the electoral count act
I agree, but in that scenario it doesn’t appear that there is a place for the written senate and house objections.
The senator and house member objection procedure comes from the electoral count act and gives the representatives and senators authority that they are not granted in the 12th amendment.
If pence is based and just, why wouldn’t he just follow the 12th amendment procedure which affords pence full discretion
“There are four key features of this Twelfth Amendment procedure that should be noted when comparing it with the Electoral Count Act’s procedures: (1) the President is to be chosen solely by the House of Representatives, with no role for the Senate; (2) votes are taken by State (with one vote per State), rather than by individual House members;
(3) the President is deemed the candidate that receives the majority of States’ votes, rather than a majority of individual House members’ votes; and (4) there are no other restrictions on this majority rule provision; in particular, no “tie breaker” or priority rules based on the manner or State authority that originally appointed the electors on December 14, 2020 as is the case under the Electoral Count Act (which gives priority to electors’ certified by the State’s executive).”
ABOVE IS THE DESCRIPTION OF THE 12TH AMENDMENT PROCEDURE
BELOW ARE THE CONFLICTING PROVISIONS OF THE ELECTORAL COUNT ACT OF 1887.
GOHMERT V PENCE WAS FILED TO ASK THE COURT TO DECLARE ELECTORAL ACT UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND ORDER PENCE TO COUNT VOTES ACCORDING TO THE 12th AMENDMENT ONLY. THAT SUIT WAS DISMISSED, SO WHO KNOWS WHAT WILL BE DONE. THE ELECTORAL ACT IS CERTAINLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL, BUT WE ARE IN NEW TERRITORY
“Section 15 (of the electoral count act of 1887)diverges from the Twelfth Amendment by adopting procedures for the President of the Senate to “call for objections,” and if there are objections made in writing by one Senator and one Member of the House of Representatives, then this shall trigger a dispute-resolution procedure found nowhere in the Twelfth Amendment. the Electoral Count Act submits disputes over the “count” of electoral votes to both the House of Representatives and to the Senate. The Twelfth Amendment envisages no such role for both Houses of Congress. The President of the Senate, and the President of the Senate alone, shall “count” the electoral votes.
the Electoral Count Act gives both the House of Representatives and the Senate the power to vote, or “decide,” which of two or more competing slates of electors shall be counted, and it requires the concurrence of both to “count” the electoral votes for one of the competing slates of electors.
Under the Twelfth Amendment, the President of the Senate has the sole authority to count votes in the first instance, and then the House may do so only in the event that no candidate receives a majority counted by the President of the Senate. There is no role for the Senate to participate in choosing the President.
the Electoral Count Act eliminates entirely the unique mechanism by which the House of Representatives under the Twelve Amendment is to choose the President, namely, where “the votes shall be taken by states, the representation for each state having one vote.” U.S. CONST. amend. XII. The Electoral Count Act is silent on how the House of Representatives is to “decide” which electoral votes were cast by lawful electors.
the Electoral Count Act adopts a priority rule, or “tie breaker,” “if the two Houses shall disagree in respect of counting of such votes,” in which case “the votes of the electors whose appointment shall have been certified by the executive of the State ... shall be counted.” This provision not only conflicts with the President of the Senate’s exclusive authority and sole discretion under the Twelfth Amendment to decide which electoral votes to count, but also with the State Legislature’s exclusive and plenary authority under the Electors Clause to appoint the Presidential Electors for their State”
I don’t know what actually happens with this. Constitution says pence has discretion over manner of counting votes, disputing votes etc. Dispute resolution procedure in 12th amendment would favor Trump. It specifies that - where president of senate doesn’t count a winner by electoral votes- the vote goes to the house for one vote per state delegation. There is no role for the senate in the dispute resolution.
The electoral count act of 1887 created the dispute procedure where one member of house and one member of senate have to object and that opens up the floor for debate. The house and senate then debate disputed state electors and then house and senate both vote on each set of disputed electors.
Tremendous trump is correct. I read both filings today in full. Electoral count act of 1887 conflicts with the 12th amendment and is unconstitutional. Major difference is that 12th amendment gives Pence full discretion to reject electoral votes, and count competing electors at his discretion.
The electoral act creates house and senate dispute procedure AND gives state executive branch deference as to which electors are legit.
The constitution, however, gives ZERO power to the senate in electoral disputes, gives state legislature deference re: disputed electors, and leaves no avenue for judicial review of pence’s discretion as to which batch of competing electors are counted.
Pence’s response to the lawsuit was related to the proper defendant. It did not actually dispute the idea that the dispute provisions of the electoral count act of 1887 are unconstitutional
Shine your light brother! Bring it all into the light!
God bless you and thank you !
Right on ! Wtf is wrong with these people ?
This is from Nov 5
No knowledge if the remainder of the info is accurate, but that ‘Pence- Ryan’ website is def fake
Perhaps I should draw a portrait of the good senator riding a wild boar into battle, spritz it with my wife’s best perfume, and mail it along with my letter.
Surely that would be delivered directly to Sen. Cassidy. I’ve been practicing my wild boar portraits (washable crayon on white copy paper).
Is there any RINO worse than Romney?
Yeah. I certainly did until a minute ago!
I believe he is an honest man, although that does contradict my deeply held belief that anyone who voluntarily goes into politics cannot be trusted.
Fucking a
So originally it was more deadly but has mutated to less deadly over time? I know there was some talk about viruses becoming less deadly over time bc otherwise they may kill all of the hosts off.
It just seems very complicated to put together a bioweapon and have it spread just enough to get the reactions from the us government and last long enough for the election....etc. Not questioning the evil agenda of the Democrats and communists and China, just wondering how they could pull it all off
I guess I lean towards it being released through incompetence and taken advantage of....definitely lines up perfectly w the mail in ballots but I just kinda doubt the competence of deep state to successfully pull it all off.
So you think that it was an attempt at a bio weapon just poorly done?
FROM ANOTHER WEBSITE THAT I COPIED FOR MY PARENTS
The President’s Constitutional Plan.
It involves two steps, or two fronts: First the Courts, then the House.
-The Trump Campaign, RNC, various state GOP Parties, third party organizations, are filing county, state, and federal lawsuits.
A Republic, not a Democracy. -The primary objective is to strategically get several ballots invalidated.
-However, a secondary objective is to publicly expose “corruption” in these cities to both STATE reps and US House and Senate Leaders. This is crucial. -While keeping the 73 million Trump supporters engaged and working behind the scenes.
-There seems to be a success in this, as two polls show 60% of the US now believe “fraud” occurred and only 49% believe Biden won. These polls have a 37-32 D: R bias.
-Keep in mind, MSM “calls” are merely “projections” of how a state voted in the popular vote. Strictly speaking, they mean nothing.
-Win, or lose in court, the next step is the GOP State Legislatures (SLs) in PA, MI, WI, AZ, and GA.
A Republican, not a Democracy. -On December 14, 2020, Certified Electors from each state, cast their ballots for the President and VP. What many do not realize is they vote in their home state and their vote is sealed and NOT “counted” until January 6th. Crucial point. -Now, the SLs have the Constitutional authority (under Article II, Section 1, Clause 3 and 3 U.S. Code § 2 and § 5) to appoint their own slate of Electors, loyal to President Trump, if they deem their state’s “POPULAR VOTE IS CORRUPTED”. -In other words, the State GOP Legislature of Georgia, for example, can “conclude that the popular vote has been corrupted” and appoint a “competing slate” of electors, loyal to President Trump. For example, 20 Biden Electors from PA & 20 for Trump.
A Republic, not a Democracy. -The precedent for this is the 1876 Election when SC, LA, FL, and (1 EV from OR) each sent competing Dem and Repub Electoral votes, sealed, to the archivist in D.C.
-Keep in mind, NOTHING is “counted” yet. Another crucial point.
-On January 6, the 12th Amendment to the Constitution specifies that the “President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted.” -That means that in the case of disputes about competing for electoral slates, the President of the Senate—Vice President Pence—would appear to have the ultimate authority to decide which to accept and which to reject. This is supported by 3 U.S. Code § 15. Hence, Trump wins. -This is a de facto check on the Electoral College, which few realize because it only happened in 1876.
A Republic, not a Democracy. -If at that point, nobody gets to 270, the 12th Amendment stipulates, “the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote.” -Currently, Republicans have a state delegation majority with 26 (likely 30 in the new Congress) out of 50. Ergo, Trump wins.
-Moreover, Politico reports, “In private, Trump has discussed the possibility of the presidential race being thrown into the House as well, raising the issue with GOP lawmakers, according to Republican sources” such as McConnell, Graham, McCarthy, etc. -This would explain Sen. McConnell’s resolute backing of President Trump. It is clear, McConnell, who is shrewd and believes in raw power, knows POTUS is on solid Constitutional ground. With our help, he will hold the GOP Caucus in line. – In a contested 2020 election, like the Election of 1876, the Republican Senate and Democratic House would disagree on which electors to accept. This is called a “disputation.”
A Republic, not a Democracy. -Under the Constitution, there exists no mechanism to resolve a dispute in which the two houses of Congress cannot agree upon a certified set of electors, and there is no Constitutional role for the courts, including the Supreme Court. This is another crucial point. -Hence, Trump’s Sept. 26th references to FIRST the COURTS, then the HOUSE (see above).
-The House and Senate GOP (McCarthy & McConnell) shall argue under the language of the 12th amendment, the President of the Senate—Vice President Mike Pence—has the sole discretion… ….to break a deadlock between the Senate and the House, and to either accept or dismiss disputed electors.
-Republicans will point to the historical pedigree of the VP’s position, observing that the GOP made the same argument during the election of 1876. -Given the language of the Twelfth Amendment, whatever its ambiguity and potential policy objections, there is no other possible single authority to identify for this purpose besides the President of the Senate to act as the arbiter of any disputes and break deadlocks. -In fact, within Pence’s powers, he could either accept the competing slates of electors submitted, or dismiss them as disputed, and not have them counted. A reduced total still delivers Trump a victory BECAUSE IT DEPRIVES BIDEN OF 270. This is another crucial point. -If 270 is not reached, then under the 12th Amendment, “the House of Representatives shall “choose immediately”, in this scenario, reelecting President Trump to a second term because, as stated above, the GOP controls the House Delegation majority.
A Republic, not a Democracy.
So, what we need to do is KEEP CALLING, EMAILING, ORGANIZING, MARCHING, and FORCING the GOP at the State and Federal levels to appoint a Republican slate of electors for Prez Trump and SUPPORT HIM 1000%.
In case anyone is wondering about President Donald Trump’s plan re competing slates, he just claimed victory in PA again.
By doing this, he’s telegraphing to State GOP leaders, in his opinion “the popular vote is corrupted” and they must act.
I’m trying 2b objective in my analysis. Addendum Trump’s Constitutional Plan (See above):
-Dec. 14 the Electoral College votes, but on January 6, is when it is “counted”. -If one member of the House and one Senator dispute or “object” an electoral vote, or a state slate, both houses withdraw to debate the issue. -Now, 3 U.S.C. § 6 says “if there is “controversy” re an election, then the governor must, “as soon as practicable after such determination,” communicate, “under the seal of the State…a certificate of such determination in form and manner as the same shall have been made.” -This suggests that, if a governor is ignoring controversy, or a contested election result and not issuing a determination, and communicating it properly, s/he is breaking federal law.
-I believe this too is where objections re “certified” state electors will arise on Jan 6. -For example, the GA, AZ, and PA results, will likely be disputed by the Senate (R) because the govs of those states are AWOL, ignoring pleases for audits. Thus, their states’ results will be challenged as “unlawfully certified”.
-This will be resisted by the Dem House. -Now, under the Electoral Count Act of 1877, it is unclear if the House accepts a slate and the Senate rejects it, how to move beyond an impasse. What is clear is that tradition holds “The President of the Senate” is the tiebreaker. Ergo, Trump wins. -Therefore, if disputes are raised over MI, PA, GA, and AZ, for example, and the House (D) & Senate (R) are tied, and Pence decides to side with the GOP and throw out the slates (which he would), neither Biden nor Trump, could get to 270.
-The election results are rendered moot. -If that occurs, the 12th Amendment CLEARLY says the “US House” delegations would “immediately” choose the president, while the Senate picks the VP. -The GOP controls 26 of 50 US House delegations.
The House would reelect Trump.
-The Senate reelects Pence.
As I said earlier: we have a contested election.
We are headed toward a Constitutional crisis.
But POTUS has a Constitutional plan, rooted in federalism, to be reelected.
Exactly. It’s not doom just bc that case didn’t get cert
That is correct. His response was that the house and senate should have been made defendants vs the Vice President. Haven’t read house brief or dismissal, just the txt of the petition and response.
I did not see any indication of what pence may do or believe based on his response, BUT I was really surprised re: conflict in procedure in 12th amendment vs electoral count act.
Were pence to decide to follow the explicit rules of the 12th amendment, AND determine that three or four swing states electoral college votes were invalid, the election could be counted for trump without any involvement from the house of reps at all.
(That statement is made in a ‘vacuum’ without consideration for any potential ulterior motives and/or external pressure. The 12th amendment seems to be clear on the competing elector dispute resolution procedure.....whether the president of the senate follows the procedures or not is a separate question)