This is why everyone should be required to have a basic medical education in school. I never even said I think there should be a legal mandate for ir wearing them at all BTW. Everyone seems to have just assumed that. The second assumption is that my concern is with everyone, which it is not, mostly the old and the sick. I wear one, and think others should too, basically just to the grocery store. There is no need to wear one outside generally. No need in your house, car, or other property. No need if visiting young healthy people. Really only if you're going to be around someone vulnerable. I think I agree with the people on this forum about almost everything. But you guys have serious lack of knowledge, tunnel vision, and (understandable) lack of trust in doctors. You are also a bunch of crappy people, borrowing the prochoice position of muh body muh choice because in this case it suits your needs. I hope you all stay well. But in general you guys have demonstrated its possible to vote for the right guy and still be an idiot

If there was a non identifying way of proving it I would. But I won't be lured by some keyboard warrior to have my identity linked with this place and lose my job

I was getting kind of fiesty in my last post. I apologize for any offense. The last thing we need is to be at each other's throats right now. The left thrives on disunuion. This is when we need to band together.

BTW, despite how it may be coming across im not a mask nazi. I want to get this crap out if the way and behind us. I signed with a physicians group last week for my "real job" when I'm fine with training next year. Met the president of the firm in his office. No mask, no gloves, just the clothes we had on. Signed the papers, shook his hand. My concern comes from the frail old people I see around town. They could catch a cold and it may kill them. I completely understand your point about personal liberty. I see so much fear and hopelessness in people anymore and I don't like it.

I appreciate your candor. God knows the world needs more of that.

No, that's not what I said. The data (not Chinese) speaks for itself. If you want to ignore it, fine. I'm not citing the ihme model or any of the innumerable other crystal balls predicting the fire of hell falling upon us. I font think that's going to happen. My goodness though, if this was regular influenza or even rhinovirus (the common cold) and you could save a few people from getting it by wearing a mask when you go to the store, you wouldn't do it?

I know of 3 colleagues my age (30s) who died from this. I saw a dude in his early 40s die last week. I've seen other young people die from this. It's not Marburg or ebola, but why take the chance to infect someone if you don't have to. The problem with people like you is that you are disconnected (not a Healthcare worker in a big hospital) and because of everything this forum is about, you run in the opposite direction from whatever they say on the news (generally good sense). It's just not as simple as you think it is. Suddenly everyone including politicians that have never been to med school know all about disease transmission and pathophysiology.

I'm the midst of your condescension and ignorance, you've missed a critical point - it doesn't work that way. Surgical masks inhibit aersolization and trap droplets. If everyone wears one, the general aersolization rate is going to very very low and likely trivial. When people stop wearing them, obviously aersoles accumulate. To protect against that, now you need n95 masks. If all the people who are not wearing masks are healthy, it's no problem. But symptoms are not a reliable Guage for this. Testing would be very useful here, but it's not widespread enough yet.

This is why I posted this thread. I didn't understand why people are pushing so hard against this issue when it has the potential to be do helpful. Honest to God, it's why doctors get so frustrated when people read about their symptoms on the internet and try to synthesize that information into something meaningful without the appropriate background knowledge. You need to know all that science for a reason. If you're not with me intubating a vivid patient, you probably don't need a papr, tyvek coveralls, goggles, ect.

But you are literally OK to put people's lives at risk (likely in the same manner as though you had influenza, do not want to be accused of sensationalizing next) because the government generally asked you to (abd some told you to) but you don't want to. Muh body muh choice, screw everyone else. You either don't understand the issue despite what you think or you're a crappy person. I'll assume you don't understand.

I agree with most of that. I explain it all in the comment to tintenfass comment below yours. I've never understood the suggestion to wear a mask (especially an n95) outside unless youre on a truly busy sidewalk or at a concert or something, shoulder to shoulder with people. The aersoles are dispersed very quickly into the air and are gone. I've seen a few recent papers discussing that with the implication that outside with low congestion, masks serve no purpose.

360 million masks and two or three times that many covid tests would cost less than the 2 trillion dollar stimulus we were just saddled with (and apparently that wasn't even enough).

The attitude here is really baffling to me. Idk how many people here are pro life, but I imagine a lot are. You all are basically taking the prochoice (liberal) talking point of muh body muh choice. And the problem pro life people have with that statement is they don't believe it's true. The unborn child's rights are not considered and nullified when it's muh body muh choice

Similarly, as I've now stated 3 or 4 times already...

50% of people don't get symptoms. In the people who do get symptoms, it takes the symptoms 4 or 5 days to show up but they're the most contagious they'll ever be while they're asymptomatic (BTW, if you were going to invent a biotertorisn agent, wouldn't that be a grest trait to give it). people generate aersoles with the virus in it just from talking, not even coughing or sneezing. No one knows yet if those aersoles contain enough virus to be infectious. The avain influenza and original sars are infectious enough to be transmitted that way. So is tuberculosis. It's not unreasonable to assume this one is too given its very closely related to sars. Given the unknowns surrounding this issue, imo you'd have to be a pretty crappy person if you have access to a real mask (not a home made POS) and not to wear it, at risk of unintentionally infecting someone else because muh body muh choice. As we actually get more real scientific data this may change.

There are a lot of hills to die on in this problem but I don't think this is one of them. A blind squirrel gets a shot right every now and then. If you do care about the people around you, wearing a mask makes sense.

50% of people won't ever get symptoms but still spread it around. The media is using this to panic people but in a way it's actually a good thing because it means this thing is not super deadly for most people. About on par with the flu.

In the people who do get symptoms, it takes the symptoms 4 or 5 days to show up but they're the most contagious they'll ever be while they're asymptomatic (BTW, if you were going to invent a biotertorisn agent, wouldn't that be a grest trait to give it). As I've said a few other times now, people generate aersoles with the virus in it just from talking, not even coughing or sneezing. No one knows yet if those aersoles contain enough virus to be infectious. The avain influenza and original sars are infectious enough to be transmitted that way. So is tuberculosis. It's not unreasonable to assume this one is too given its very closely related to sars. Given the unknowns surrounding this issue, imo you'd have to be a pretty crappy person if you have access to a real mask (not a home made POS) and not to wear it, at risk of unintentionally infecting someone else because muh body muh choice. As we actually get more real scientific data this may change.

Auto correct sucks dude. Read the rest of my comments here if you think I'm a faker. I'm not going to try and convince some dude on the internet I'm a physician because of an internet typo

I saw a demented patient the other night. I walked in and he said he wasn't expecting to see the lone ranger tonight... I told him I was actually here to rob a train

The infectious innoculum is also different for different routes (nasalpharyngeal vs eye vs mouth). What you are suggesting sounds great but is an oversimplification. We don't know enough about this but to know what the consequences are of Infectious aresoles in a stagnant environment (Walmart or the indoors). Avian influenza and original sars are contagious in those settings. Other viruses are not. Some viruses like norovirus are not even appreciably present in respiratory secretions unless you've just puked. I also agree with you that home made masks are generally ridiculous and of very low protective value.

What everyone is missing is that there is a very well known 4 to 5 day period of asymptomatic carriage where you have no symptoms, may never get them, but you're very contagious. That's why the advocacy for apparently well people to wear them. from a public health standpoint I feel being conservative is the right thing to do here. We don't know what the consequence of aresoles in the environment is and I've seen plenty of old people who look like they've used up most of their 9 lives walking around the grocery store. Those arr the people who will get it and end up in the icu snd/or die. I at least feel a duty until we know more, to try and protect them. I'd hate to find out I was putting people at risk when I'm exposed to it regularly and have access to real masks. We need to be wearing medical grade surgicsl masks for that to work though, not these bull crap home made things.

I agree. Get a made in America bandana. Much better coverage than a typical diy mask and it looks great

This has been an issue myself and my colleagues have been frustrated with also. There are so many unknowns with this thing that my personal preference for patient care is to be very conservative. This is an escaped lab virus, likely intentionally created. God only knows what its doing in some people's bodys. As I understand it there was a lot of politicking in the cdc and governments several mask recommendations. Doctors nearly unanimously called bs when they tried to say n95s were not necessary in Healthcare settings and some er and icu docs threatened to not work. The story I've been told is that the ever changing guidance AZ initially meant to reserve "real" ppe for hospitals but honestly who knows. No self respecting practitioner would walk into a room with a potential novel respiratory contagion without an n95 or papr and several other pieces of ppe. Given all of the shadiness of this situation, the shifting and nonsensical guidance from people like the cdc does not instill public (or professional) trust.

The infectious dose AFAIK is not yet known. Idk and I don't think anyone knows if the aersoles you generate from talking of breathing heavily actually generate a truly infectious dose. So in my conservatism, I wear a mask. Despite the naysayers here, there is overwhelming evidence of about a 4 to 5 day period of asymptomatic carriage where you are the most contagious (clever lab work anyone? That's how I'd design a bad bug). So that's why I'm a proponent for now of surgical medical grade masks. The stuff I've seen some people make is horrendous and likely does nothing. What I wear in the hospital is actually a reusable 3m 7502 respirator with p100 filters covered with a bandana - partially to "protect" the filters as much as possible from aersoles, partially because it covers up a very scarry looking mask, and partially because I'll never get a chance to wear one to work again

Here is the issue I see... I sensible issue has been politicized and now a segment of us who hate government overreach will avoid wearing masks because the government told us to... Even if wearing the mask (at least for the time being) is probably a good idea. It's the kind of thing that only works well if most people do it. I seems self defeating to me. I share your concern that you can't trust the government and if you let them tell you to wear it now, they'll try to tell you to wear it forever. I just don't want to see people put themselves in harms way in a similar manner to anti vaxers. A friend of mine said near the beginning of this that there's a difference between being brave and being stupid - don't be stupid. I think there are better crusades to fight quite honestly. The country would be better off from a public health standpoint if masks were not so stigmatized (ie, not wearing them in flu season even when you're sick). The only reason Karen's even have that kind of power is because people listen. Don't listen to them. It will make your life much simpler.

First I don't know anything about these dancing videos. I'm too busy with my work and family for that kind of crap. I am a doctor and what you've said is offensive. I don't think you're trying to be but you don't understand. I'm a resident which means I'm done with med school and a "doctor" but am not board certified in a medical specialty yet. We all signed up for this gig for a lot of reasons, but I don't know anyone who signed up for pandemic managment. My opinion of all of this is a little different than the general opinion of this board (my politics are not), but I'm also a doctor and have real world first hand experience with the patients who have this diease. The public has many fundamental misunderstandings about doctors and medicine. As a resident I make about 50k per year but I'm more than 550k in debt. I'm not doing this for the money, but as you've indirectly pointed out, the money is necessary. If you had any idea what my job is like, you wouldn't have made the glib and dismissive statements you made in your post. I worked as a roofer durring the summers in college. I know a little about what blue collar work is like. I also know what it's like to be poor, living in my wife's salary of around 20k per year through med school. I've never been a truck driver and while I can imagine what their job is like I also know it's impossible for me to understand things like the loneliness of the road, the stress of deadlines, and so on without doing it. When you've had to look a young girls mom and dad in the eye and tell them their daughter, that you've been working on all night, is gonna die and you can't do anything to change it... Nothing can prepare you for that. And you never forget it. I see things on a daily basis that most people don't see in a lifetime. It's not why I went into this, but it is a consequence. When you're the one in the icu I work in dying, the work I do suddd ly becomes the most important job in the world. This is not me with a gob complex of thinking I'm done big shot... But residents especially are abused by the medicsl system (all physicians are) and we are tired of the general public thinking they understand our job and backyard quarterback ING what we do because you've got Google and WebMD. The reason why some of us are scared is not illegitimate. If you catch this bug at Walmart and are young and healthy, you'll probably have a mild illness. Most of the reason for this is that the "dose" or viral load you were exposed to was low. However, when I'm in a busy er or icu intubating people (3 people were intubated on my first hour last night), the viral load I and my colleagues are exposed to is astronomical. That is why at least 3 medicine residents (1 in Michigan, 2 in ny) in their 20s and 30s apparently healthy have died (and were confirmed positive BTW) . That is very very unusual. I don't know that I've heard of that happening before. The hospitals were very large centers and do not want this info being reported, which is why it mostly hasn't been on the news. Go to the student doctors forum or residency reddit if you want more info. We have a very dangerous job right now and it is compounded by longstanding systems problems in big health and politics (mostly lack of ppe but the total list is very long). I was and am still an advocate for heard immunity (everyone gets it, virus can't spread when everyone's had it) with potential recommendations for the dock and elderly to hunker down for a while. We need to open back up and get back to work. Outside of giant cities like NYC and Detroit, the risk of running out of Healthcare resources has been low. The tenor of this entire post is irritating and offensive to me. I don't pretend to know and subsequently judge and compare other occupations. Doctors are subjected to do much bull crap from hospitals, government, insurance, regulations.... It becomes demoralizing. When I see that kind of crap brewing among the public, it's too much. If a terrorist took out my states power grid, I would hope I would think better of the engineers and techs working overtime to fix it than what was conveyed here in your post about doctors

As an internal medicine resident with a wife and kids, I dont have enough free time to even know what these videos are

Internal medicine resident here from a 600 bed hospital in the great lakes area. Capacity is 50-60% right now. Very low, typical capacity is 80-100%. Lots of people in the medical field right now that are not working in a hot zone have a lot more time on their hands. I've had several call shifts recently with no calls which never happened pre covid. Usually I'd be fairly busy. I am not a nurse but at least at my center, their workload seems to have decrease substantially as well.

Also while we have almost completely restricted visitation except for things like end of life, I've not heard any credible stories, including from my colleagues at other centers, that patients are having their phones seized. Everyone has their phone and generally uses it a lot.