sigh bend over, I'm working on another bookpost. I think this one will manage to piss off everyone I didn't cover the first time around. Gonna break it up into more bite-sized chunks this time. This post, however, has a different purpose.
"Thank you...time...pastors..."
- You're welcome
- Couple hours, anyway.
- Sadly, I can only think of one pastor I've ever come across that I would absolutely trust. Ever seen a pastor floss his ass with your towel? I have. He was a good guy. They are just men, fallible, sinning, imperfect men. Some of them try their best to help you, others try their best to help themselves into your wallet.
I am not a pastor. I am a father and husband about your age. I am ill equipped to answer your existential questions, as it's not something I've ever struggled with. I can, however, say this. I was doing other stuff, just checked in on tdw while I was taking a break. Came across your screed and was impressed, as few seem to have mastered the wall of text skill as I have, so I read. Then I had to answer. Why? I don't know. I half suspect you're an athiest laughing your ass off at me as I struggle to answer some of this. I don't care. You see, what you are missing, the key part of it, is that you are worth it. That doesn't make sense, you say. Why would I care, I don't know you, will probly never talk to you again after this thread, so what does it matter? It matters because I love God, God has commanded us to love one another as brothers, and He has told us that He desires a relationship with us, with you. God did not come down and tell me to write this (no doubt mildly heretical) wall of text, yet I'm still writing it because I think He wants me to. I could stop. I could go back to my work. (kinda want to, it was interesting) But I won't, because all of it, hell, punishment, the pain of life, is worth enduring for the chance at a relationship with you. When you finally find your answers (and believe it or not, sometimes the answer "there is no answer" becomes acceptable) and develop a relationship with God in this life and the next, it will all have been worth it. Anyway...
"I flat out do not agree that you can love something you have to kill."
This is because you are divorced from your food. If you'd ever had to raise something from birth, fed it, nurtured it, cared for it's every need, and then butchered it to feed your family you would understand that you absolutely can love something you have to kill. I can't say I loved all the fish I've caught over the years, but my animals? Them I loved.
"Though making us more akin to dogs than sons does seem to touch a little closer than I think you intended."
No, I said what I meant. I have issue understanding how we aren't irrelevant to Him. Why does He care about me? I don't know, I just know that He says he does, and I've chosen to take it on faith that He's telling the truth, even though if I were in his position, I don't know that I would see us as more than pets. I'm projecting my thoughts and feelings onto Him, even though He says otherwise. Hope that makes sense. I love my pets, but I love my children far more. I just don't get it. However, 'faith' is enough of an answer for me in this case that I don't feel compelled to seek the answer.
""Have to". "Must". "Cannot". All of these statements of god directly refute omnipotence...well, those are the rules, nothing we can do about it""
I'm going to try and answer this one here one way, and in another post a different way. I think you are atributing those on the wrong party. I believe you are absolutely correct in that "He can change them...or whatever He wants." So lets say He does. How long before someone cries foul about changing the goal posts, or 'rules for thee but not for me'? If a god was to do this, would he be worthy of the title? Isn't that at least part of the issue plagueing our country right now? Would you follow a god that did that? Therefore he 'must' uphold justice and the rules He created, not because He must, but because He loves us, and wants to be loved by us. In other words, it's for our sake alone that He has to do anything, and He only chose to do any of it because to Him we are worth the trouble. (although I sure as hell don't understand why.)
"love does not exist without free will because God intentionally made the rules to be that way"
I see no fault in your logic. If evil didn't exist, how would you know what good is? How would you define it? recognize it? appreciate it? So too with love, honor, etc.
The rest of your post I'll adress in another of mine. Gotta look up some stuff to make sure I get it all right. It'll be a while.
gasp really?! You mean all those posts with "this claim is disputed" and all the "although he's filed many cases, they keep getting thrown out" information that the msm keeps lying about? Exactly how is that going to count for proof that he won when they lie about it? With a statement like "He won!" it's reasonable to expect something that contains, I don't know, proof? A new court case victory, some kind of new evidence, whistleblower, or analysis, but no, instead it's just a faggot farming upvotes and a sanctimonious retard defending him.
how did he win? says who? (besides him, I know about his tweet) what can I show the retards in my life so that I can mine some salt?
Faggot isn't biggoted, it's descriptive. The term originally meant a bundle of sticks. Now it still does.
*Part 2 (of 2) of the bookpost titled, "Watch a Retard Offend Not Nearly Enough Denomenations"
"...whose fault is it really? The child who freely acted but based on wrong information supplied by the parent, or the parent who gave him the wrong information on purpose?"
I think the Bible is quite clear about this. There is a verse somewhere (I can't remember the reference) that talks about how a husband is responsible for the spirit of his wife, and that if he commands her to sin, she is to do it, but God will hold him responsible for it. There are many verses throughout the New Testament (I Timothy, Ephesians, etc) that talk about how a man is build up his family's spiritual health as God does for the church. Likewise, false teachers are warned against and condemned numerous times. A few highlights...
Matthew 7:15-16 -
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits..."
II Peter 2 -
"1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
So we see that God not only condemns leading others astray, but hates them for it, and will punish them for it. Sorta fits the whole "God is just" thing, right? It also explains why "just popping out of existence" is not a worthy solution. If people knew you existed, and hated you so much that they tried to turn those who loved you against you, would you not punish them? Would you not hate them? If your wife left you for Tyrone, and then told your kids lies about you, how would you feel? God is not the one handing out the false information.
As far as "Mere Christianity" goes, my argument there would be that you are listening to a man's interpretation of God's message, which, though his intentions may be good, are not divine. Which is exactly what I would say about this book I've written to you. I hope it helps you, and while I don't have many answers, I'll always welcome searching for them with you.
Well, I'll try brother. Here's part 1 (of 2) of my new bookpost titled, "Holy Shit, What Have I Done."
I am essentially having a very hard time reconciling 4 facts we are told about God.
That's leaving out a big chunk of the picture. It's like saying that socialism is all about helping everyone, and leaving out the oppression and starvation parts. You are missing the parts about God being jealous, vengeful, wrathful, holy, merciful, eternal, etc. I think most people like to assign the 'good' attributes to God, and leave off the things that aren't quite so cheerful. That alone goes a long way into explaining some of your confliction, I think.
If he was all powerful, all knowing, existed outside of time, but was not infinitely loving, just a generally benevolent King who wanted humans to thrive in general, but did value his rules and his law more than any individual human soul, I could much more easily buy that...
Do you have a dog? Lets assume you do. When he craps on the floor, do you discipline him? If he bites you, do you scold him and teach him otherwise? What if he doesn't learn? What if he kills your other animals, do you love him so much that you don't care? Do you not love your other animals? What if he were to kill your child, would you put him down? Infinite love does not preclude discipline, it guarantees it. If you truly love something so much, you want it to be the best possible version of itself that it can be, right? So if it doesn't understand, you have to teach it, and sometimes teaching has to include discipline. Likewise, sometimes even if you love something greatly, you still have to kill it to care for others that you also love. You can absolutely love something that you have to kill.
You then seem to get stuck on God's perception of time versus ours. All I can tell you here is that he absolutely percieves time differently than we do, and therefore beyond our (or at least my) understanding.
2 Peter 3:8 -
“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”
...save just one of us. If he’s willing to do that, why wasn’t he willing to just make it so that wasn’t necessary? Or not create the human souls he knew wouldn’t choose salvation? Or choose to save us by force if necessary if we didn’t choose salvation?
This is difficult to answer without getting mired in theological discourse and stepping on toes, so I'll endeavor to answer it with the caveat that I'm quite certain certain people will dissagree with me. I further stipulate that this is how I view it, I'm willing to change my opinions when presented with evidence, and papists can...n/m. OK. Lets pretend you have a harem of slaves. They love you unconditionally because you've told them to. They will not ever challenge you, or point out your mistakes, because they love you perfectly and have no free will. They are incapable of displeasing you. After the novelty of the thought (and all the impure thoughts you just had about that harem) wears off, ask yourself this, would you be happy with that? How do you know if the people in that harem are happy? They are incapable of saying anything negative because it would displease you. If you take this premise at face value and fill in the blanks, then that covers the "why would you create something that can sin" angle if you postulate that "sin" would be "anything that displeases you." If we take that a step further, then we can infer that love cannot exist without free will. Even further, and we must conclude that if love cannot exist without free will, then love cannot exist without those who would displease you, and therefor if you wish to love and be loved, you must also condemn. I know, I hear the objections already, lets just continue and see if some of those sort themselves out, as I suspect they shall.
Hell then. You still love them even though they displease you, so why torture them? I like that question. Undoubtedly there will be some new age watered down 'christian' along shortly to say there 'is no hell.' Allow me to dispell that hogwash by looking at what we know about hell.
Revelation 21:8 -
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Matthew 25:46 -
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
Matthew 13:50 -
"And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
...sounds like hell to me. Some will argue that hasn't happened yet, and that souls are currently awaiting judgement in purgatory. Lets sidestep all that and at least agree that eventually, at some point, assholes are getting chucked into the lake of fire, as I think that is more pertinent to your present quandry. You state, "I cannot fathom how that fits the definition of also being infinitely loving." I think I can answer to this one. In your heart, you want to be a good person. You can't understand how someone could love something and allow it to be tortured for eternity, in fact, that offends your heart so profoundly that it casts the whole lot into doubt for you. I believe this is the case because you are assigning responsibility for that choice on God. Even worse, this is something major, your eternal soul, and here He won't even give you a concrete answer, He's content to let you choose not to believe. So what if it was concrete? What if people knew, beyond a shadow of a doubt that God was real? No one would choose not to follow the Lord then, right?
Revelation 16:11 -
"And blasphemed the God of Heaven because of their plans and their sores, and repented not of their deeds."
For context, this is occuring when God is pouring his wrath upon the world in judgement of it's wickedness. People will know God exists, and will hate him anyway. Even now, if you look around online, you can find blog posts and discussions of people who believe God exists, and hate Him anyway. Furthermore, you are assuming that we are all made by God. We aren't. Your parents made you, and God imbued you with a soul, to give you the chance to know Him and have everlasting life. He could have chosen not to imbue you with a soul, but what would happen then when you die? poof oblivion? (See Zechariah 12:1 - "...and formeth the spirit of man within him" and Hebrews 12:9 - "Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?")
“accept salvation and be with Me in Paradise, otherwise you will be deleted from existence and simply cease to be” arrangement seems more loving than hell at least.
Well, if God is also infinitely Just (He is) then He must also uphold justice, right? If someone steals your "My Little Pony" lunchbox and eats your lunch, is it just to make him give back the lunchbox when he gets caught, then let him go? What about your lunch? What is the just punishment for someone who rapes you? Does justice require a punitive component? Are you beginning to see the problem with only addressing specific aspects of God, and not the whole?
On your paragraph about the nature of love; there are at least three types of love. Fatherly love, which you liken to a "pale immitation...of God's love" (I tend to think you are right about that), brotherly love, which should be self explanitory, and romantic love, which also seems self evident. To use your example, say the father takes the needle from the son's arm, locks him away, and does everything in his possesion to stop his son from self destructing. Have you ever had much experience with drug addicts (esp. heroine)? I have. I've had my fill of loved ones dead and dying from that shit. I have gone above and beyond for them, I've gotten them into the best rehab programs, physically dragged them out of crack houses, faught (not just verbally) and then gone back and did it again when they did it the next time. I spent years of my life trying to save my brother. You cannot save a junky that doesn't want to be saved. You can do all of it, and they'll just hate you for it until they sober up a little, and you'll see that person you loved still in there, until they shove that shit up their arm again. No, forcing your will upon another cannot save them. God cannot make you love Him, because that isn't love.
"program it into our being"
He did. Every culture throughout the world, throughout history, has believed in a creation myth. Evolution is a modern invention that Darwin himself renounced. (inb4 DEBOONKED! If he hated Christianity so much, why did he allow a local church to hold meetings on his property? Who knows, who cares, evolution is a theory being pushed as a law of nature when it very clearly violates those same laws of nature. Point out a benificial mutation that occurred naturally, explain how the second law of thermodynamics applies to everything in the universe except the theory of evolution, explain how we evolved from primordial ooze through a comically long period of mutations and somehow, magically, mutually evolved entire male and female reproductive systems in order to propigate the species. /rant) Here's where I'm really going to piss people off. Where did Jesus go when he died? In Luke 23:43 he tells the thief on the cross that he would join him in paradise. Not heaven. Paradise. In Matthew 12:40 - "...so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." What'd He do there? In I Peter 3:18-20 -
"18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
I suspect that protestants have gotten it wrong, that purgatory and it's associated tiers do exist, and that no man has been judged and sent to either Heaven or hell until God sits upon the throne of judgement as declared in Revelation. Furthermore, since Jesus went to preach to those "spirits in prison" that it is not necessarily too late for those that are dead who died while not knowing the Gospel. Am I right? I dunno. We'll find out when we get there. Plz no bully.
I'll reply to this with part 2...
Christianity has been subverted and attacked for the entirety of it's existance. I do not believe it was God's intent for us to be pacifists, but to fight evil when peace is no longer an option. I will leave you with a few examples of what I mean, if you'd like to talk more about it, I'd love to.
I Corinthians 6:9:
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind"
Ecclesiastes 3:1-8:
"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven...A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up...A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace."
Psalms 18:32-40:
"32 It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect. 33 He maketh my feet like hinds' feet, and setteth me upon my high places. 34 He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms. 35 Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy right hand hath holden me up, and thy gentleness hath made me great. 36 Thou hast enlarged my steps under me, that my feet did not slip. 37 I have pursued mine enemies, and overtaken them: neither did I turn again till they were consumed. 38 I have wounded them that they were not able to rise: they are fallen under my feet. 39 For thou hast girded me with strength unto the battle: thou hast subdued under me those that rose up against me. 40 Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies; that I might destroy them that hate me."
Really though, all of Psalms 18 is magnificent. And there are more, so many more.
Well, originally I had intended sodomy to refer to the Leviticus 20:13 version, “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination...” However, you seem to be implying that there's much more to it than that. My only knowledge that might pertain to sodomy between a man and woman is via Romans 1:26, "...for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:” Is there more to it than that?
Women in leadership roles is also something you seem to have made up your mind about
Of course. I've been going to church virtually my entire life. How can you go about your daily life without preconcieved notions about how things work? If you don't challenge those notions, how can you grow? In particular, I find those two questions to be an excellent bellwether to find out if someone that would deign to 'teach' or 'lead' others is going to preach the Bible as it is written, as they wish it was written, or if they will flat out make things up to try and 'convert' others. I haven't quite made up my mind about you. I suppose that depends on where you want to go with your discussion into the septuagint. Should I assume you are divining your insights into the ancient greek via hermeneutics? (As I would, I haven't learned ancient greek yet, just some latin.)
I find it interesting that you hedged against outright saying your position, and instead suggested that I don't have the right idea of what the ancient greek means. I, however, have no qualms stating my position. I do not believe that women are intended to hold leadership positions in the church, nor do I base that opinion on a single verse.
I have a question. What does the Bible say about sodomites and women in leadership roles?
Yes, but that's not why. They never learned how to lose.
Won't do you any good, can't get any primers to reload either. That's supposedly what the 'shortage' really is, a primer shortage.
I hope they bust those assholes with election tampering and break them up.
Beetlejuice was counting the votes.
That's not dye, his boyfriend just couldn't fit the rest of his head in....
Magnificent! Moar Salt Plz.
I see. So it's insincere to trust God if you also have to adhere to the parts you don't like. Sounds a little backwards. Why should I trust someone who isn't committed to the whole of what God teaches? Where does it stop? What if another of his teachings becomes unfavorable later on, shall we omit, alter, or otherwise attack those teachings too? "All sexual actions" are a choice, so is murder. I can choose to murder someone, so is it ok then? Naturally, you are going to say, "the other party doesn't consent to being killed" and that isn't always true, as evidenced by Dr. Kevorkian. He chose to kill, they chose death, is it a sin?