fair point. I guess our disagreement is in whether or not it is the "sole reason" or not. I think it contributed heavily, but would stop short of calling it the sole reason.
Another example to give here of ways this could be done. Imagine sending mail in ballots to registered voters who are felons, but haven't had their name removed from the voter registry and then trusting them to not vote if they're not allowed to. The dems know that a large portion of those people would vote for them and that some will get through the state checks to see if someone is eligible to vote. BOOM, just like that, you get election fraud that favors the dems, in high enough numbers to swing elections, but in a way that could never be tied back to the democrats. Now imagine doing things like that and suddenly the few hundred fraudulent votes is now tens of thousands. Each incident isn't tied to the other and appears vastly different. If you investigate one incident, you arrest one person and stop maybe a few hundred votes. Therefore they can claim "widespread voter fraud doesn't exist".
My point is that voter fraud occurs in isolated incidents that are hard to tie together as widespread voter fraud. I don't think that's controversial. That doesn't mean that it didn't occur in enough instances that it changed the outcome of the election. The dem's rhetoric, their use of mail in ballots ect. are all done to exploit this fact, and cause voter fraud to occur that cannot be tied to them. Same with the voting machines, having plausible deniability so that it cannot be proven that they were manipulated.
The deep state is assisted by the MSM and all the big tech orgs. Do you really think they would be so stupid as to engage in election fraud as blatantly as many have suggested? The reality is that they likely have enough data and all their moves, rhetoric, ect. is calculated and done in a way to cause this fraud to occur without them directly needing to go in and change votes or direct people to falsify ballots.
The voting machines are very concerning as well, because since they were connected to the internet, this means the code could have been changed or manipulated before and after the election, so that evidence could be removed.
100k+ vote swing in Michigan seems unlikely to be all from fraudulent votes. The amount is too high.
Now, Georgia, Wi, PA, AZ, NV, are all different stories.
Now there are reports that Biden wants some republicans in his cabinet. Still think election fraud was all democrats?
Understand that I don't have a list of stuff to quote cause I never was trying to make the point that trump is a "LIAR". I'm just saying he does lie, so does every politician. DID I SAY AS MUCH AS EVERY OTHER POLITICIAN? NO. But don't say that he doesn't do it at all or that he's not a politician. He's not a career politician. He's not an establishment politician. But goddamn man how do you call someone running for office not a politician? Are we just arguing semantics here? Would you agree if I called him something else? My point is he holds public office and of course lies about some stuff, just like everyone else who holds public office.
Edit: Adding since you added this: "I’m sorry but America is under attack, our cities are being burned, Trump supporters are being assassinated in broad day light, and our tax dollars are funding terrorism, so some potential embellishment from the man who is trying to save it are really pretty meaningless, no?"
I'm literally in agreement with you in saying that his lies/half-truths are pretty meaningless. I'm saying every politician does it. I'm not saying Trump does it more than others. Nor am I trying to prove that he lied about this or lied about that. Can I not point out what we both agree at least is "embellishment" without you taking that as a defense of Biden?
Ok, so when he was inaugurated he spoke about how his turnout was the "largest ever."
Obviously it's not the "largest ever". Do I care that he bs-ed a bit? No, every politician does this kind of stuff. Did the MSM make it into a huge deal when it shouldn't be? Yes.
That doesn't change the fact that objectively there was less turnout than when Obama was elected.
If I'm being fair, a lot of the "lies" the MSM claims trump says can be chalked up to hyperbole, or just his speaking style that they take to be literal.
But to suggest he has never told a lie is ridiculous. Everyone has, and every politician has, with MAYBE the exception of lincoln.
Edit: If you want some more examples, go look up politifact fact checks on Trump. Many of them they are unfair and say his statements are false when they are maybe just exaggerated, or half true, or in some cases actually true. However, I'm sure there are some things there that are objectively not true that he has said. Whether that is 10% or 50% of the stuff politifact says he lied about is up to you. But if you think it's 0% then you're clearly delusional.
Overall, I'm more concerned about Biden's lies and think he says a lot more BS than Trump when it comes to actual concerns people have of him. Just throwing that out there so you don't think im some Biden cuck trying to defend him. His sons a creep/pedo and biden is corrupt and bought by Chinese interests.
The point I'm making is that the voter fraud is done in small isolated cases and in a way that they have plausible deniability. This all adds up to a large scale that affects the election outcome. But what I mean is that they are not doing this on a widespread scale to where one person testifies and hundreds are implicated. The dominion voting systems company is probably in on the fraud, however I would argue that only a few higher ups and only a few high ranking dem officials know what is going on.
A poll worker isn't going to be manipulating ballots and being paid off by their supervisor. But maybe the supervisor is hiring only from heavily dem areas and repeating rhetoric like "trump wants to suppress voters" to get people to commit fraud.
If you read this as "Trump and Biden both commit fraud, the election fraud isn't real, ect." then you're clearly missing the point of what I'm saying.
I worked at a sketchy car dealership many years ago that had corrupt managers cooking the books. This is exactly how they did things and they did this so that if legally challenged, they would have plausible deniability. This is how fraud is done. Read the NY post article about the dem operative who engaged in fraud. Watch the project veritas videos exposing fraud by videoing people agreeing to break election laws. No one makes the post worker offer the ballots, nor is he ordered to. However, he is easily manipulated into doing so because of the rhetoric the Dems have instilled in his brain. If that guy was investigated, he would likely be the only one charged as his superiors probably were smart enough not to give him direct orders.
I didn't say a normal amount of cheating did I? TBH it seems more common among Dems and if you look at past cases of voter fraud that is the case. Also it is likely far more prevalent than prior elections due to the high amount of mail in votes.
I'm just arguing that this stuff happens and is probably a part of the dems strategy from the beginning rather than the sole reason they won. Still, since the race is so close these cases could be enough to swing the election in Trumps favor.
If you investigated the entire election, you would find fraud on both sides. More than likely it would swing the election in republican's favor though as it is more commonly commited by dems.
I'm just making the point that this isn't anything new or a grand conspiracy to the point that some are making it out to be. Doesn't mean that the election outcome wasn't manipulated and that the MSM didn't spend 4 years leading up to this election manipulating people.
To add to this so I'm clear on my view here.
I think the entire election should be investigated. The deep state is real, and it includes both Dems and Republicans. But I think you underestimate how much is done via manipulation and taking advantage of people, vs "everyone is in on it, even local county officials, ect."
There's no way that they are literally printing ballots to the tune of hundreds of thousands. A biased county recorder and clerks who he has chosen that are biased and likely to do things to benefit his party, along with a governor promising him legal defense and giving orders? FAR FAR more likely imo.
I'm not against America or betting against America. If you read my post you'd see Im all for trump exposing this BS. Trump has of course said mistruths or misleading statements in the past. All politicians do. It's more like half truths or him saying things that are later proven inaccurate. LITERALLY ALL POLITICIANS DO THIS THOUGH.
Could be, more so I'm talking about things that are proven to be false. Honestly don't know enough about Qanon so maybe a bad example.
Here's a good example that isn't Qanon but is misinformation. The Wi voter turnout conspiracy. Wi records voter turnout as a measure of ballots cast vs eligible voters, not registered voters. So the actual 2020 turnout is 71%, not 89% as many were saying.
This kind of misinformation distracts from real evidence of election fraud that may have occurred in Miluakee. A lot of the counts from various districts seem odd and unlikely. That is real evidence of election manipulation and in a state were the margin was 20k votes could change the outcome of the election.
https://defendyourballot.formstack.com/forms/voter_fraud?utm_source=graphic
from rudy guiliani's twitter if you prefer to not click on random links
PA GOP would also be on my list of people to contact. If you could get a notarized document or sworn affidavit stating that you witnessed staff stating that I bet that would be useful.
This 6553 voters would be 0.46461% of the county. From what I understand, and assuming all the info is correct and has been verified, that would mean roughly 1 in 216 voters had the same first and last name, zip code, as well as birth month and year as a deceased person. Or it could be due to human error that those ballots were marked as received. With the number being so high however (1 in 216), seems more likely that people were filling out ballots for the deceased and sending them in. I believe Michigan sent out ballots to every registered voter so it's very possible that family members of people at the same address fraudulently filled out the ballot. Or could be (less likely) dem officials with voter registries using this info to insert fake ballots into the totals.
Definitely think that it should be investigated, along with the voting machine error that was reported that gave 6k votes to biden, although they are claiming now that that was due to someone failing to update vote totals and not so much a glitch. I still think it all should be investigated, regardless of ill intent or not. There should be more transparency in the entire system, and it looks like trump is using that to his advantage to win the election and have groups of ballots thrown out. Guess we'll see how it all plays out.
To me, this seems like they did it so that they could use the opportunity to mix ballots rec'd after Nov 4th with ones recd prior, knowing that would swing the election in biden's favor. The reason they ignored the court order is in order to create a situation where 300k + ballots will be brought into question. Looking into those ballots, there may be relatively little evidence of fraud, but I think they did this to make a situation where Trump is questioning the validity of 300k ballots and asking for them to be thrown out. This lets the Dems make arguments that the ballots shouldn't be thrown out on the grounds that it would affect voting results and infringe on the rights of voters. This might be enough for the court to request evidence from trump of fraud actually happening. The dems know that Trump will be unable to produce enough evidence to suggest a large portion of the 300k ballots were manipulated.
I think they did it not because they thought they won't be challenged. But rather, they did this intentionally so that it will be very hard to argue that the ballots should be thrown out and impossible to verify wrongdoing if they are recounted/audited.
Reading more and more into the fraud that occurred, and PA definitely seems very suspect. However, I don't think they were necessarily "printed ballots for biden". More likely a mix of real ballots, in-elligible voters and ballots that were filled out illegally (such as through coercion or bribes). They're basically trying to set up a situation where the stakes are so high so that the court is hesitant to throw out the votes. Might be why it seems to be happening in various states as well. They know the cost to complete an audit is very high and how much litigation it can involve and are trying to set up a situation where Trump is fighting an uphill battle. Meanwhile, MSM, tech corps, ect. are all naming Biden as president elect to help these impending court cases.
Look at Bush vs Gore. One of the reasons made for not counting ballots was because a change of results could cause "irreparable harm" to the president elect. I'm guessing arguments will be made that these actions could cause "irreparable harm" to the voters, state govt, ect. Trump may even use that argument himself to get the ballots thrown out.
Overall, gonna be a very messy court battle and regardless of outcome half the country is gonna be up in arms about it. Super interested to see what legal arguments are made from both sides.