I agree with you wholeheartedly, and I’m sorry for the loss of your relative, especially because you had to endure it through a video call. It’s painful not being there in person.
I’m right there with you on the circus that is the media. To see how the media trips over themselves to report politicized stories solely for the sake of shock value is awful.
Oftentimes the media takes statements from physicians and agencies like the CDC and manipulates them to manufacture a story that draws views.
An example is this thing about how a person COULD be infected a second time. I mean, sure they could, and an undetected meteor “could” also hit the Earth tomorrow. Doesn’t change the fact that these are both incredibly unlikely events. But the media uses that “could” in order to stroke fear and thus article views. Despite the fact that probably >95/100 people would be completely immune to a second infection and the remaining would likely have a greatly attenuated response compared to their first exposure.
This all frustrates me a great deal, as it must frustrate you, too.
Yes I understand the point about the eye. My point is that the masks are not great for protecting you from the environment. They are great for protecting the environment from you.
Masks are not a panacea, certainly not. But the key thing we are after is to reduce transmission rates. If each infected person infects less than one other person on average, then we will have successfully contained it by definition. Masks definitely help with this.
Do you see the case from this perspective?
Before you start lecturing, keep in mind the virus is transmitted in droplets. It’s not the naked capsid being expelled. The mask stops the droplets, the smallest of which are in the single micron range, and most of which are larger.
The standard mask everyone is wearing actually does worse than the N95 that you are comparing. This actually helps your point, but only if we are talking about the naked virus expelled dry into the air.
If you click my username, I made a post earlier with three links from Pubmed. That’ll help with sources.
Lastly, appeal to authority is defined as a fallacy when that authority is not an expert in the subject matter discussed. It would be an appeal to authority if I said, I am your boss and thus I am right on this medical issue. Not so much an “appeal to authority” to say, I spent some 28 years after college becoming a specialist on the very issue that we are talking about.
You could have googled “fallacy appeal to authority” and clicked one of the top links to better understand what it is you’re talking about, but then again, you wouldn’t be writing any of this stuff if having researched arguments was important to you in the first place.
Are you surprised that even the medical field takes time to understand a new disease?
In medicine and research at large, we often say “we don’t know,” but that doesn’t mean we don’t have a pretty good idea. But even a pretty good idea can be wrong, admittedly.
Onto the point.
It’s important to separate asymptomatic spread into two groups: those who are asymptomatic throughout infection, and those who are simply “asymptomatic” prior to the onset of symptoms.
We believe that the majority of spread through the population at large (not including the dynamics of retirement homes and such) occurs when those who are asymptomatic enough to be unaware of their own infection speak or cough in public indoors and in so doing release virus.
We don’t know to what degree those who are entirely asymptomatic during their infection actually spread the virus.
Hope this helps clarify some. I know how frustrating it is to feel gaslighted or like you’re being fed bullshit. You’re not wrong to be upset; both the medical field and the news have done a poor job at educating the public about the science behind this virus. It gave way so quickly to becoming politicized and that’s where the sensible discourse seems to have ended.
A big mistake was to pretend masks weren’t effective early on. Or to be “on the fence” about it for such a long period.
This was to prevent them from becoming unavailable to healthcare workers who would be exposed to a far higher population of COVID patients than folks at large.
Regarding the “commie face diaper,” you’d have to be an idiot to politicize a face mask.
Plus there are potential longer term issues about widespread, daily mask use over the period of months.
I’ve been wearing a mask almost daily for over 25 years, and often the much more annoying N95 types. If there were issues we’d be the first to know.
Edit: you’re right about the epidemiology. Although I am not solely operating deep in the weeds of microbiological machinery. I crawl out of the laboratory dungeon to see patients several times a week, for instance.
Yes, and immediately after they state:
Most studies were underpowered because of limited sample size, and some studies also reported suboptimal adherence in the face mask group.
The “p=0.25” means that there is a 75% chance that there is a real statistical difference between groups. They are saying that with more patients enrolled in the study, it might be possible to claim that the statistical difference is “significant” which just means that it’s a 95% chance or higher that the difference isn’t just random chance.
We really don’t know how common asymptomatic spread is. Could be big, could be small. Could be that asymptomatic carriers spread a lower viral load and thus induce infections with lower rates of complications (and even lower rates of symptom presentation).
We do think that a big part of the spread happens from those who are hit hard enough to develop symptoms, in the period before these symptoms are actually developed. I.e. before folks know they have it.
Hope this is a bit useful...
Certainly won’t disagree with that!
The fact that it’s been politicized to this degree is incredible.
Yes. This is why steroids like dexamethasone have been used successfully — they are a type of immunosuppressant.
With the immune system, it’s a delicate balance. One reason why it often reacts so strongly to this virus is that it is very dissimilar to other viruses to which we have immunity. Our adaptive response gets stimulated very strongly.
Regarding mandates, I’m not making any argument for or against mandating masks. I am simply strongly advising that people wear them as a personal decision. They are a means to minimize transmission while we return to society following lockdown.
To be honest I have not come to a personal conclusion on whether the precedent of mandated mask wearing is right or wrong in my own eyes. I would normally think, the government can fuck off. The problem for me here is that one person’s decision to wear a mask really does affect others. This puts it into a moral grey area for me personally. Okay enough about me.
Some sources worth reading are below. I hope you see that I am not cherry picking. For example, in the first link, there are indeed some reports which show no significant effect from wearing a mask, among others that do demonstrate significance.
I would read the second link too, though, because it is more relevant, but the first one is a review of much more data. Third one is on animal studies, which are on one hand less directly translatable to humans 1:1 but on the other hand, much easier to statistically control and thus often provide a less noisy experiment.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25411668/
Everyone is confused on what to do. Don’t attribute to sinister motives what you can attribute to cluelessness!
I’d like to pretend that the medical community was somehow fully prepared for this, but the reality is that we too have been learning along the way.
I’ll say one more thing to frame this a little better. Nightmare scenario for transmission is something like:
-
Highly symptomatic, unmasked COVID patient enters apartment building elevator and hacks their lungs out for the entire duration of the ride. Gets off on their floor, goes inside. Elevator air now full of airborne microdroplets containing CoV2 viral particles.
-
Elevator goes down, a healthy person enters the elevator. Breathes the uncirculated, virus-laden air for their entire ride up.
Two ways we can prevent this: One, we mask the sick person so they aren’t putting clouds of CoV2 up. Masks help tremendously with this. Even cloth mask would very, very likely be significantly more useful than no mask. Two, we mask the healthy person; less efficient than masking the sick person, but still better than no mask at all. And when both people are masked, chance of transmission plummets even more.
Yes it is certainly possible for infection to be transmitted through the eyes.
This is why masking is far more efficient for preventing the release of virus compared to preventing its capture by some mucosal tissue. If it were released from the eyes it’d be a different story!
Regarding cloth masks I don’t have a good simple litmus test for what would be effective. My advice would be to wear a surgical mask. Local stores and pharmacies sell them. Wear them in public spaces and toss/replace if you end up in close quarters for extended periods, for example popular grocery stores.
If you must use a cloth mask, the key selling points (to me) would be (1) at least two ply, (2) some mention of small pores, (3) no exhalation valve (defeats the purpose), (4) clean fit around the face.
Regarding the droplet, this is tough to say. It certainly doesn’t sit there against the pores like pebbles on a cheesecloth, that is to say, it “sticks” to the material through VDW interactions and does quickly dry. It wouldn’t fall through because the micro-droplet clings to the mask. After completely drying, vast majority of virus particles would remain adsorbed to the mask, others may immediately degrade, and perhaps a few would flow through the mask or be blown off. But it’s highly unlikely to be infected from exposure to just a few capsids.
Again, it’s most important to view this through the lens of containing airborne droplets to those already infected. This is the big big role of masks.
Three big points:
-
COVID19 is much worse for patients than common colds and flus. I look at the autopsies, Xrays, CT scans, bloodwork, you name it, of COVID patients daily. The immune response that it triggers in some people is absolutely immense. We simply do not see this with other seasonal coronaviruses and typical influenza. I cannot stress enough that this is very clearly not the same thing. I am literally seeing my own patients pass. The death rates and especially the hospitalization rates are nowhere near the same. Please also keep in mind that fatalities aren’t the only measure. Many (if not most) recovered patients leave the hospital with fibrotic scarring and possibly permanent reduction in lung function. This is really not something that you want.
-
Masks certainly aren’t 100% effective, but containment isn’t about being 100% effective, it is simply about trying to reduce transmission such that each infected person infects less than one new healthy person on average. This is how containment works. Masks are the best solution we have, next to locking everyone at home. Businesses and the economy are suffering; masks let us be out and about while at least minimizing transmission.
-
We are not all going to get COVID. That is the nightmare scenario with millions of deaths across the country. We don’t really know how infections will play out, but even if this is the case, we do know that masks will slow transmission. And slowing transmission helps hospitals function more efficiently. I can tell you first hand how much mental fatigue is involved in attending to COVID patients because of how dynamic the infection and their own body’s response are. If a quarter of the country is simultaneously positive in a few months, we will have a serious, serious problem on our hands.
This is true only in situations where so many people are infected that you’re essentially bound to get it, mask or not.
I know the end of that statement might’ve piqued some interest so let me explain clearly.
The really sneaky thing about this virus is that someone can be contagious for a few days before they show symptoms.
This is really the big problem. People aren’t stupid; they will stay home if they have obvious symptoms like coughing or fever (at least most would...). It’s the people who don’t know they’re infected (in the period before they show symptoms, if ever) that are likely spreading it.
The purpose of a mask is simply to prevent droplets containing viral particles from escaping from the mouths/noses of people who might not be aware they have it.
The mask is somewhat helpful in preventing droplets from entering your mouth when you breathe, but not perfectly efficient. It’s much more efficient at preventing infection by covering the infected person’s mouth/nose.
So to summarize more clearly: if you’re in room with 100 unmasked people who have COVID, even if you have a mask, you could still get it. Especially if everyone is coughing and close to you. But if you’re in a room with 100 healthy people and you are infected, by wearing a mask you’re far, far less likely to get everyone else infected.
Anyways— Two things: one, the virus doesn’t breed on the mask. It needs human cells for that. Second, with current infection rates, its not too likely that you’ll be picking up CoV2 particles on the mask from just wearing it once to the store.
The main source of virus on the mask will be you, if you are ever infected. And if you are, the quantity of virus trapped on the mask is nothing compared to the quantity in your lungs, so there isn’t any big risk to yourself. This is why you shouldn’t touch it! Don’t want to take any virus from it and deposit it into public surfaces. Also why you shouldn’t ever share masks, but this seems obvious.
I’m sorry but that isn’t an objective source. Just because something is written on the internet does not make it true; there is a bit of due diligence required to assess the quality of what you’re reading before you believe it at face value, especially when it comes to medical/clinical observations.
Of course you can ask. Happy to answer.
I read just the abstract of your link and I’ll make a point that’s possibly a bit more nuanced.
There are some nice, two- or three-ply cloth masks that are good, and work as well as surgical masks for this purpose. Undoubtedly they do. Many also look far less dorky and if it helps people to wear them in public then that’s great.
Other people put a bandana or T-shirt sleeve around their face and call it a “cloth mask.” These are not efficient, particularly because stretching these fabrics causes the pores to expand.
However... if you’re at the grocery store and someone is having a coughing fit, a bad cloth mask is probably still better than no mask at all. In some part because it may reduce how far expelled droplets will travel.
Why do you think this?
I’d understand brainwashing on political ideals, sure.
But this is a medical point of fact. How does brainwashing work?
I’ll give an example. We are working with live virus and infecting monkeys to assess whether delivering some therapeutics through nebulizers can be improved. I am not simply reading news articles and forming an opinion. I have a very firm grasp of how aerosols and droplets work, on account of seeing it first hand.
Most Nobel Prizes in medicine are awarded to those who challenge the status quo of treatment and I can say pretty assertively that there is a huge emphasis in medical research on playing devil’s advocate and not letting dogma or “brainwashing” influence our findings.
Can you be more specific about the brainwashing?
Oh of course they should be allowed to disagree.
The nonsense is simply the implication that masks don’t work. They do work. When you go to your doctor’s office, especially now, you should wear a mask.
You can visualize yourself how masks work by spraying an aerosol (like body spray, hairspray, etc) at them and seeing if it goes through. The actual droplets that carry CoV2 are smaller than the droplets in spray deodorant and such but the pores are small enough on masks to filter these much the same way.
shredded old sock
This is hilarious and also very true. The fact that everyone is walking around in cloth masks is very stupid. Surgical masks are available all over the place and are at least functional to a reasonable baseline, even the crappy ones.
Cloth masks are much more highly variable in their efficiency. Some are great, others awful, and it’s hard to tell without close look at pore size, even if they “feel dense.”
I mean, this wasn’t actually posted by a doctor’s office. If you’re smart enough to enter and graduate medical school, you don’t believe this nonsense.
I think this forum rightfully brings a lot of important issues and perspectives to light, and I agree with most... but the view on masks is just absurd.
Specifically, say what you will about them being a way to condition obedience, but thinking that they literally do not work is not true.
Source: I’m a lung doctor (pulmonary immunologist) whose lab studies viral & bacterial infection. I voted (and will vote) for Trump so I’m not looking to shill or shame. Just to get us out of this temporary COVID mess.
Gonna be a hell of a road to actual herd immunity...
They didn’t acknowledge this. The RNA used for the COVID19 test is specifically chosen to avoid any sequence that is conserved in other coronaviruses...
But I agree. The best metric is COVID cases in ICU, or COVID deaths, even though these aren’t perfect metrics either.
Here’s the full text link for the second one:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2